Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

This may be rather simplistic, but are there two basic categories of money?:

 

1. A coin is of a certain amount of a precious metal. (I will sell this for 5 oz of silver)

2. A coin (or paper money) that has no intrinsic value but is whatever the governement (and market) determines as its value. (I will sell this for 5 domars)

 

Does it seem probable that there may be local economies BUT silver and gold become universal in their value?

 

Does currency need to originate with some sort backing of precious metals?

[Curufea]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

A couple of things-

1) Best way to get rid of aquatic races would be the generation of sound waves in uncomfortable frequencies and volume.

2) I'd always thought of EMP as a more powerful version of induction. It doesn't matter if a circuit is live or "on" to be effected by EMP - the wires will act as antennae and have current induced in them. The net effect is that many wires that shouldn't have current, will have current - and most circuits will be blown or fused because they aren't expecting it (or not at those levels). It also applies to the human body which has a conductive nerve system. The levels of EMP most commonly shown in movies would also easily fry a human being. Although the movies portray it as not being harmful to humans (Goldeneye comes to mind).

[Midas]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

This may be rather simplistic, but are there two basic categories of money?:

 

1. A coin is of a certain amount of a precious metal. (I will sell this for 5 oz of silver)

2. A coin (or paper money) that has no intrinsic value but is whatever the governement (and market) determines as its value. (I will sell this for 5 domars)

 

Does it seem probable that there may be local economies BUT silver and gold become universal in their value?

 

Does currency need to originate with some sort backing of precious metals?

 

There was a book (The Flying Sorcerors?) Where "As Mauve" (Asimov, yeah, it was full of in jokes) crashed on a pre industrial planet, and among other things, started currency. The authors did a much better job of conveying the reluctance of people to accept a common value for money than I could here. But several situations developed where buyer and seller were deadlocked over the value of the script, and the relationship between one precious item vs another.

 

Also, I would expect that IOUs, a written form of "favor" like C&S would develop. IIRC, something like this happens in remote areas, where there isn't enough paper money around. Change is given in local checks:

 

"$27.17"

"I have Bill Wiggs check for $30."

"OK, I have a dollar bill and a $12 check from Fran. Got a ten?"

etc.

 

It works as far as I know. When the bank gets a new batch of funds, everybody cashes in their collection, pays outstanding bills etc, and writes checks for another month.

 

So to answer the question, even if a value is determined by fiat, there will still be disagreements over whether to accept that value. If I understand economics, mis-setting the value will effect the economy: Setting it too low will cause hoarding of goods, too high and hoarding of money happens. Either way, nobody sells/buys, and the economy stops.

 

(Not that I want to turn the thread into a discussion of economic theory)

 

Midas

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I would expect that if some commonly accepted "money" were to arise in a post-apocalyptic world, that there would be a more-or-less common acceptance as to its value. Without this common acceptance, there would be no real reason to use it...people would just barter with things that held actual value. With common acceptance, there would be no hoarding of goods or of money, except maybe in some city-state where fiat money was issued (which, really, isn't common acceptance of value anyway).

[Midas]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I would expect that if some commonly accepted "money" were to arise in a post-apocalyptic world' date=' that there would be a more-or-less common acceptance as to its value. Without this common acceptance, there would be no real reason to use it...people would just barter with things that held actual value. With common acceptance, there would be no hoarding of goods or of money, except maybe in some city-state where fiat money was issued (which, really, isn't common acceptance of value anyway).[/quote']

 

Allow me to disagree with you/expand my point: Keywords being "More-of-less."

 

Drive into any large town or small city. As you are coming in, you will see half a dozen or more gas stations. Each will have a price set, but there will be a one to fice cent variance per gallon. Drive across town, and you will see a ten or twenty cent difference from where you entered.

 

I can buy mangoes from the local Krogers for 33 cents apiece. The Walmart two blocks down sells them for 93 cents apiece. Minor variations, but even in the calm of the early 21 century there are 300% price fluctuations.

 

My first point is that we don't have "common acceptance" even today, yet we still use money.

 

My second point is that Walmart thinks a dollar has only a third the purchasing power that Kroger gives it. A "minor" variation in a PA city will probably be huge, yet still minor enough that the citizenry will prefer the stability of coin to the uncertainty of barter.

 

But to agree with you on the fiat thing: Look at the Russian money (ruple?). The Kremlin decreed the value would be "z." The Russian people simply refused to accept the money, not for its stated value, and finally not at all. This is what I referred to above. People would not part with goods nor services for the money in question. (It must have been humiliating for the Kremlin to know that dollars were the only acceptable currency).

 

And, now that I think about it, if you look at it just so, Eastern Europe really *is* a PA society. Of the various kinds of "collapse of civilizations" one kind is economic collapse.

 

Midas

 

PS: Is anyone else having a problem keeping this thread separate from the one in the Star Hero forum?

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

PS: Is anyone else having a problem keeping this thread separate from the one in the Star Hero forum?

 

I had a queston I was going to post here, but it seemed more appropriate in the other forum since they were already headed in that direction. Kinda crazy.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Allow me to disagree with you/expand my point: Keywords being "More-of-less."

 

Drive into any large town or small city. As you are coming in, you will see half a dozen or more gas stations. Each will have a price set, but there will be a one to fice cent variance per gallon. Drive across town, and you will see a ten or twenty cent difference from where you entered.

 

I can buy mangoes from the local Krogers for 33 cents apiece. The Walmart two blocks down sells them for 93 cents apiece. Minor variations, but even in the calm of the early 21 century there are 300% price fluctuations.

 

My first point is that we don't have "common acceptance" even today, yet we still use money.

That is true to an extent, but a gallon of gas or a mango constitute a miniscule part of most people's disposable income, so a 300% price difference can go pretty much unnoticed. You won't find a $100,000 house, and two blocks away a comparable house going for $300,000; and you won't find a car selling for $20,000 at one dealer and the same model for $60,000 at the next one. Throughout most of the country, it can be safely assumed that $5 will buy you a meal, albeit a fatty unhealthy one. Throughout the country, it can be safely assumed that $15 will get you a meal at a sit-down restaurant, and if you're paying $100 for a meal, you probably won't be wearing shorts and flip-flops in the restaurant. Similar levels of pricing can be expected for most goods nationwide. This is what I meant by "common acceptance"...not that there are no variations in price, but that there are expectations that about how far a given amount of money will go.

 

My second point is that Walmart thinks a dollar has only a third the purchasing power that Kroger gives it. A "minor" variation in a PA city will probably be huge, yet still minor enough that the citizenry will prefer the stability of coin to the uncertainty of barter.

I suppose that depends on the level of economic activity. If you come to town to trade once or twice a year, you won't want jack that you can't use. Having a pile of shiny metal while going on short rations for six months makes no sense. Now if you go to the market every day, like many people do/did without a handy refrigerator or icebox, then money makes a lot more sense, because the green grocer might not need or want a chicken, or a pair of shoes, or whatever else you have to trade that day.

 

So if you have a city large enough to have a market going every day, money will be fairly stable and widely used. If you have a town that balloons in population a couple of times a year for the big market day, there will be a lot more bartering for the things everyone will need to last until the next market, and a whole lot less coin changing hands. Probably the only people using money in that instance will be those professional traders who travel from settlement to settlement selling whatever they have that's locally valuable or buying whatever can be had cheaply.

 

But to agree with you on the fiat thing: Look at the Russian money (ruple?). The Kremlin decreed the value would be "z." The Russian people simply refused to accept the money, not for its stated value, and finally not at all. This is what I referred to above. People would not part with goods nor services for the money in question. (It must have been humiliating for the Kremlin to know that dollars were the only acceptable currency).

That's a classic example of the failure of fiat money. Or, not necessarily failure, but at least an illustration that money is also a good, and its value is ultimately determined by supply and demand. There were too many rubles for their value to really equal what the Soviet government said (too much supply), and demand for them began dropping as price instability set in, reducing their value even further.

 

And, now that I think about it, if you look at it just so, Eastern Europe really *is* a PA society. Of the various kinds of "collapse of civilizations" one kind is economic collapse.

Very insightful. The damage was limited by the stability of Western Europe, but a worldwide economic collapse would bring out the road warriors just as surely as a nuclear exchange.

 

PS: Is anyone else having a problem keeping this thread separate from the one in the Star Hero forum?

I don't think I'm subscribed to that other one (yet) so I don't have that problem, but I've noticed that happening before with other topics.

[Midas]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Very insightful. The damage was limited by the stability of Western Europe, but a worldwide economic collapse would bring out the road warriors just as surely as a nuclear exchange.

 

Thank you, I am a glutton for praise.

 

I think we are closer to agreement than it might appear. My main concern was more of a metagaming event.

 

Adventurer in town: "How much for a week's trail rations?"

Vendor: "Five gilpeks."

"Bit high. Does anyone else sell food?"

"Yes, but they will all charge exactly the same."

"Ah, ok, lemme have fifty weeks worth"

"250 gilpeks."

(Adventurer travels for close to a year, clear across the continent).

"I need some trail rations."

"Five gilpeks..."

 

While the GM could set a rate for each merchant (This one charges 110%, this one 85%, etc) or do something like the C&S bargaining system, it is boring for both the GM and player to have to compare prices of fresh fruit and hay/ethanol for every purchase and merchant.

 

As for the similar threads, Azato origenally asked how could technology not be restarted in a PA setting. The other poster asked for criticism of his PA concept. Both however veered toward what would or wouldn't be available, and the stability of the PA society.

 

Azato, are you apologizing for contributing to both threads? Why?

 

Midas

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

 

Azato, are you apologizing for contributing to both threads? Why?

 

Midas

 

It was metioned that having two simular threads was confusing. I am posting questions on another thread that relates to the subject that I created this thread for. I was mainly remarking that it is getting weird.

[zornwil]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I agree. I think industrial society would take quite a while to recover, but I'm fairly certain we could get back to a late pre-industrial/early steam age pretty quickly, with a little bit of eletricity available to most communities for special uses.

 

Great points, and when I was thinking of the knowlegde of tech how to surviving, I had The Canticle of Leibowitz i the back of my head... pehaps not under wraps they way it was in the book, but I'd be rather unsupriased to see a scholastic/monastic class arise to preserve literacy and the basics of technology... its one of the bits of accumulated lore that would have enough value to support a small class of people in a barter economy

 

 

Yeah, AFAIK, EMP's fry anything with active current in them, as well as anything with fragile eletronics like microcircutry. Most modern cars would never run again. Older and simpler designed machines that were inactive at the time of the pulse should be restorable (perhaps with a bit of work)

 

 

Which is why we won't NEED modern materials production capability for a while.

 

 

 

nahh, Keith is right.

That big ole tub o' saltwater is a wonderful ground

 

 

For me, pretty easy.

For others like me, probably also not too hard.

For most folk, not so easy.

I'm a bit of a survivialist, and a bit of a fanatic as well. I LIKE hand tools, and have a rather full suite of them, and know how to use them. My reference books include things like the 13 volume Foxfire series... a collection of pre industrial Appalacian living techniques including nifty diagrams and instructions (want to make a windmill, hand pump, still, bed, wagon or hand forged musket? They have chapters), Back to Basics (learning and enjoying early American skills), Highland Folkways (same concept, but aimed 150 years earlier

and from the perspective of a Scotland), as well as a bunch of others. When I add in my fathers books.... He still has every book he's ever bought on electrical and mechanical engineering, from when he started teaching himself about the subject back in the 30's till he retired in the early 90's. I have a complete set of carpenters hand tools inherited from my grandfather, smithing tools collected while I was doing faire (most are gold rush era hand forged antiques, because I found they work better than most of the ones I could find for sale) and a full suite of leather working hand tools.

Without leaving the room I currently am typing in, I could build myself a full set of leather clothes, including water resistant outerwear (yeah, I make my own waterproofing too, though when I ran out of easily available prepackaged oils and my stock of beeswax, I'd have to acquire more to mix up more of my homewbrew waterproofing I first compounded when I was installing waterwells for a living.)

 

So, in a roundabout way, the answer is "Not very easy, but there are those among society that have the knowledge, if we survive"

An interesting possibility is that, just as with the fall of the Mayans and Romans, the following dark ages will be at a tech level that isn't all the way at the bottom but is significantly downgraded and, the key part to me, plateaus for a long time there, it seems.

 

The post-Roman dark ages are about the best source we have to review, from a Western perspective anyway, and the biggest factor in that was invasion. In a PA type world as we often discuss, frequently there's no invaders, and a once-globally-integrated culture with all that it had to offer has a much higher starting line. If nobody is around to stop regrowth, then it's a much different scenario than the dark ages that happen because of a new culture with a much lower tech taking over from an older one with a much higher technology.

 

No doubt those with basic all-around survival skills will quickly be leaders in any event. Any community which has enough of them that they don't all bite the dust from disease and environmental holocaust or the like I could imagine will live as you say, assuming they live anywhere with resources.

 

The tricky part of PA game scenarios is that the cataclysm has to be mighty enough to kick us back into whatever barbarism or chaos desired while not being so bad it just plain wipes everybody out. As civilization and humanity advance, it does seem more and more that we're going to get through pretty much anything but that we can see more and more there really are things that can just plain wipe out human life on earth.

 

Anyway, back to an actual point I intended, the plateau of low-level tech in the post-acopalyptic period makes for lots of fertile story ground. Why are the people in that plateau? Is it for lack of resources that they quest after? Is it philosophical/religious, and strongly driven from the lessons of the collapse (however incorrect and/or mythologized those may be)? What sort of advances are the society after?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

An interesting possibility is that, just as with the fall of the Mayans and Romans, the following dark ages will be at a tech level that isn't all the way at the bottom but is significantly downgraded and, the key part to me, plateaus for a long time there, it seems.

 

The post-Roman dark ages are about the best source we have to review, from a Western perspective anyway, and the biggest factor in that was invasion. In a PA type world as we often discuss, frequently there's no invaders, and a once-globally-integrated culture with all that it had to offer has a much higher starting line. If nobody is around to stop regrowth, then it's a much different scenario than the dark ages that happen because of a new culture with a much lower tech taking over from an older one with a much higher technology.

 

No doubt those with basic all-around survival skills will quickly be leaders in any event. Any community which has enough of them that they don't all bite the dust from disease and environmental holocaust or the like I could imagine will live as you say, assuming they live anywhere with resources.

 

The tricky part of PA game scenarios is that the cataclysm has to be mighty enough to kick us back into whatever barbarism or chaos desired while not being so bad it just plain wipes everybody out. As civilization and humanity advance, it does seem more and more that we're going to get through pretty much anything but that we can see more and more there really are things that can just plain wipe out human life on earth.

 

Anyway, back to an actual point I intended, the plateau of low-level tech in the post-acopalyptic period makes for lots of fertile story ground. Why are the people in that plateau? Is it for lack of resources that they quest after? Is it philosophical/religious, and strongly driven from the lessons of the collapse (however incorrect and/or mythologized those may be)? What sort of advances are the society after?

 

good points about plateau levels for technology, and about the effect from pressures caused by invaders or other external threats.

In areas where survival against the environment is the dominant threat, for instance, I imagine that you'd see a plateau similar to what I mentioned above, where the reduced population will encourage or force a re-emergence of early Industrial technology labor saving devices, to better serve to support radically reduced populations, but where military/weapons tech would probably stabilize at black powder levels... I'd expect flintlocks for hunters and farmers (who would also serve as militia men in the event of a threat to the society), and probably carefully restored and maintained mechanical action guns for any actual "soliders" or guards. The greater the incidence of external threat, the more the focus for tech will be that valuable to warfare. Dynamite is pretty easy to make from scratch. So is Nitrocellulose (guncotton). With the ability to produce those two materials, the ability to produce at least limited quantities of weapons that would rival in effect any in the middle portion of the 20th century. Landmines, Mortars, Rocket launchers(probably the easiest heavy weapon to build with simple tools, BTW), reloading dies allowing the continued use of modern firearms, with examples on hand for craftsment to replce parts and perhaps produce simple but effective models inspired by example.

 

It suddenly occurs to me that a wonderful representation in literature of what I picture as a post apoc tech level would be the changes instituted by Sir Boss in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurs Court.

 

Different apocalypse scenarios will determine many of the factors you mention.

 

A superplague, for instance, ala The Stand, will leave a world rich in resources, but with a population of survivors that represent a totally random selection, killing off many of the people with the skills to rebuild industrial society. Much moreso if the plauge also turns the victims into monsters (28 Days Later)

 

An economic collapse would probably produce a world where resources are scarce, but the majority of the knowledge will be preserved (it's the best case scenario for most survivalists, and the easiest to survive). Blood of Heros (aka Salute of the Juggers) is one of the best examples of the genre I can think of. Battle Angel might be considered another, tho its a more Cyberpunk Post Apoc.

 

A global disaster event will (Edit: Make that "might") leave more resources, and decrease the survivor population more, but those that do survive the first few years will have concentrated a fair bit of knowledge. Lucifers Hammer comes to mind, as does Waterworld.

 

The pretty standard NBC global war scenario combines bits of all these elements, which is probably why so many post apoc games and stories employ the idea. The devestation is totally proportional to the desires of the worldbuilder, and easily adapatable to form diffferent societies in different regions. Damnation Alley, The Postman, and the Mad Max movies all show the possibilities.