Cygnia Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Me, I'm wondering if our nameless priest of Loki is going to survive the thieves and Belkar only to be taken out by a certain dwarven cleric of Thor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Could be it was a metaphorical death of the Old Belkar and he is a new halfling now, complete with an alignment shift. . . Or you know, he could die a heroic tragic death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Could be it was a metaphorical death of the Old Belkar and he is a new halfling now, complete with an alignment shift. . . That's an interesting thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Could be it was a metaphorical death of the Old Belkar and he is a new halfling now, complete with an alignment shift. . . Or you know, he could die a heroic tragic death. I'm guessing (and my track reccord isn't that good) that Belkar will live long enough to die heroically, or at least looking heroic; all of that character development we were just promissed means nothing if he gets killed without making a difference. I also don't know if he's had an alignment shift, unless going from "Chaotic Couch Gamer" to "Chaotic Table Gamer" counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Ah, the time honored tradition of a "Welcome back" Badass moment. Brings a tear to my eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narratio Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick I also don't know if he's had an alignment shift' date=' unless going from "Chaotic Couch Gamer" to "Chaotic Table Gamer" counts. [/quote'] Would that be double alignment shift, sort of "Chaotic Evil Couch Gamer" to "Chaotic Good Table Gamer" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick It looks like an alignment shift to me, but I don't know if it's from Chaotic Evil to Neutral Evil or to Chaotic Neutral. Lucius Alexander Putting the palindromedary in neutral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Eesh, Neutral Evil would be worse. Chaotic Evil at least has an agenda. NE is just another way of saying "sociopath" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal_sage Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Eesh, Neutral Evil would be worse. Chaotic Evil at least has an agenda. NE is just another way of saying "sociopath" i dunno. i've always interpreted chaotic evil to the worst, as they desire evil and have no compunction to not do it. if they want to murder, they do, if they want to rape, they do, etc. they have no code to check them (i.e. lawful evil, or Two Face) and its even more than just "evil for evil's sake" or evil because its profitable (i.e. neutral evil or Catwoman), its evil because its fun, or they just seek to sow chaos and destruction over all else (i.e. Joker) which is why i always think of chaotic evil as sociopathic. i can kinda see your point, i suppose, but its really all in the way you look at it, i suppose, which is why i hate alignments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick i dunno. i've always interpreted chaotic evil to the worst' date=' as they desire evil and have no compunction to not do it. if they want to murder, they do, if they want to rape, they do, etc. they have no code to check them (i.e. lawful evil, or Two Face) and its even more than just "evil for evil's sake" or evil because its profitable (i.e. neutral evil or Catwoman), its evil because its fun, or they just seek to sow chaos and destruction over all else (i.e. Joker) which is why i always think of chaotic evil as sociopathic. i can kinda see your point, i suppose, but its really all in the way you look at it, i suppose, which is why i hate alignments.[/quote'] It's a good reason to hate alignments - trying to put the sun total of a person's motivations on an axis chart... Lawful Evil - Sheriff Of Nottingham (sanctioned, laws, still a bad guy) Chaotic Evil - Sauron (wants to rule you with an iron first, power for the sake of power, definitely a bad guy) Neutral Evil - assassins, serial murders, etc (no agenda beyond 'bad things' itself, sometimes for profit, sometimes for the sake of doing evil just to do evil) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Would that be double alignment shift' date=' sort of "Chaotic Evil Couch Gamer" to "Chaotic Good Table Gamer" ? [/quote'] We have no reason to believe that Belkar is suddenly Good, and Rich has always been clear that he's meant to be Evil. Looking at his coma dream, he's now a Chaotic Evil character who will pretend to care what others think and to acknowledge the rules he's breaking, instead of being the kind of character whose player pays no attention at all to what's going on, and just shouts "I kill him" every few minutes from the other room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick ... and just shouts "I kill him" every few minutes from the other room. In between shouts of "Where are the Cheetos" and "Can I have a soda?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick In between shouts of "Where are the Cheetos" and "Can I have a soda?" He's already got the "If there are any girls I wanna DO them!" bit down pat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Chaotic Evil - Sauron (wants to rule you with an iron first, power for the sake of power, definitely a bad guy) What exactly is "Chaotic" about Sauron? He was either Nuetral Evil or, more likely, Lawful Evil. He was loyal to his Master while he had one, and when on his own he seems right at home setting up hierarchies and imposing discipline on his minions. Which I suppose just makes your point for you about the inanity of the "alignment system." As for Belkar - you know, I only know how alignment works in 1st Edition. I haven't played the game since then, more then a couple of times sporadically. But back then, if you were Chaotic Evil (which Belkar is, or was) you can only change to Nuetral Evil or to Chaotic Nuetral; further change would be yet another alignment shift involving loss of yet another level. And it looks to me like Belkar might have shifted to Nuetral Evil. He's encouraging violence and the lust for revenge in others now. The old Belkar wouldn't have risked losing XP for a kill by giving his victim to some NPC cleric to finish off. Lucius Alexander And an unaligned palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick The "old Belkar" tried to goad a paladin into killing him in the hopes of causing an alignment shift and eliminating the paladin's powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick I don't see any reason to think Belkar has had an alignment shift; he's just playing Chaotic Evil a bit differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0612.html Hmmm.. interesting. I'm actually gonna miss that cleric of loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick I love the last line. Marvelous take-off on the old (and somewhat inane) saying. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick What exactly is "Chaotic" about Sauron? He was either Nuetral Evil or, more likely, Lawful Evil. He was loyal to his Master while he had one, and when on his own he seems right at home setting up hierarchies and imposing discipline on his minions. Which I suppose just makes your point for you about the inanity of the "alignment system." Ummm... Sauron was the Dark Lord - THE bad guy. He never had a master (unless you go all the way back to the creation myth, and Eru - at which point everyone was absolute Neutral since Good/Evil didn't exist) and he imposed His Will and ONLY His Will - no laws, no discipline, that was left up to his minions; like Saruman The White whom you seem to be talking about. . . Saruman set up heirarchies. Sauron just wanted to rule, or conquer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Ummm... Sauron was the Dark Lord - THE bad guy. He never had a master (unless you go all the way back to the creation myth, and Eru - at which point everyone was absolute Neutral since Good/Evil didn't exist) and he imposed His Will and ONLY His Will - no laws, no discipline, that was left up to his minions; like Saruman The White whom you seem to be talking about. . . Saruman set up heirarchies. Sauron just wanted to rule, or conquer. Sorry to bust yer chops, buddy mine, but wasn't Sauron basically Morgoth's henchman? “While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Sorry to bust yer chops, buddy mine, but wasn't Sauron basically Morgoth's henchman? “While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.” I keep forgetting about the First Age . . . stupid Tolkein needs cliff notes. Yeah, 'spose he was at one point second to Morgoth. Still, stand by my opinion that in the Third Age he would be Chaotic Evil. Possibly even the Second Age as well as he "Lusted For Complete Power" and not "to organize men under laws" And that alignments are stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Sorry to bust yer chops, buddy mine, but wasn't Sauron basically Morgoth's henchman? “While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.” Exactly. And wanting to rule is a Lawful drive. "Rule" and "Law" are practically synonyms. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary notes that all we're really proving, is, once again, the inadequacy of the alignment system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick I keep forgetting about the First Age . . . stupid Tolkein needs cliff notes. Yeah, 'spose he was at one point second to Morgoth. Still, stand by my opinion that in the Third Age he would be Chaotic Evil. And that alignments are stupid. I'd be inclined to agree with you on both counts. Sauron might LOOK Lawful Evil, but he's not really up on keeping any commitments that inconvenience him, and is really big on the whole double crossing thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick Exactly. And wanting to rule is a Lawful drive. "Rule" and "Law" are practically synonyms. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary notes that all we're really proving, is, once again, the inadequacy of the alignment system. And I can also agree with this here statement, which confirms both of your statements about alignment systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Order of the Stick And wanting to rule is a Lawful drive. "Rule" and "Law" are practically synonyms. Er, well. Kinda. the key there is "practically" instead of "actually" synonyms. A Rule is a synonym for A Law. To Rule is not a synonym for Being Lawful. LE would use the laws to their own benefit, twisting as needed but still nominally following them. CE would just make up a law to justify their actions, keeping until it inconvenienced them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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