James Gillen Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick That's something that Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan apparently forgot. That's what's called "deconstructionism." Which ironically, is the case here. If Watchmen was about blowing up superhero tropes (like the idea that you don't compromise with the mastermind and let him win) Order of the Stick blows up Fantasy tropes like the idea that monsters are just monsters without motivation. Sure the dragons are Evil and must be killed, but that doesn't mean they don't have cause to feel justified in revenge. JG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick That's something that Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan apparently forgot. That's what's called "deconstructionism." Which ironically' date=' is the case here. If [i']Watchmen[/i] was about blowing up superhero tropes (like the idea that you don't compromise with the mastermind and let him win) Order of the Stick blows up Fantasy tropes like the idea that monsters are just monsters without motivation. Sure the dragons are Evil and must be killed, but that doesn't mean they don't have cause to feel justified in revenge. I can't add much to James' comment. Watchment deliberately flew in the face of established Super tropes, and started a new subgenre in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreBrute Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Hey I don't know whether this has already posted, but I think Vaarsuvias' gneder has just been revealed: Notice the demon said, "I think he said..." And this is one of the few people who would know. Thus this is probably an admission. If anyone has an activated account on Giant in the Playground, could you redirect them to this post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Hey I don't know whether this has already posted, but I think Vaarsuvias' gneder has just been revealed: Notice the demon said, "I think he said..." And this is one of the few people who would know. Thus this is probably an admission. If anyone has an activated account on Giant in the Playground, could you redirect them to this post? Or the demon could've just been using standard English. "He" does double duty in the English language. It is both the male pronoun and the proper pronoun to use when you are referring to a person whose gender is unknown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick I think it's a pretty standard trope of heroic fiction that we DON'T sacrifice a few to save a multitude. We save who we can today and rely on prevailing over the new evils tomorrow. I agree, but that doesn´t mean it´s the only trope or even a good [or best] one. How about the person who permits his friends to die when he could easily save them, and instead chooses to help many more complete strangers survive? That could easily be argued as a heroic, if tragic action. Rather than choose himself, he chose others, at a great price. Really, it can easily be argued that what you described is irresponsible. What if you´re the last one who can reasonably stop this evil? Hoping for the best isn´t exactly a good justification for what ends up happening. Personally, I like both. It just depends on the story you want to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick I agree' date=' but that doesn´t mean it´s the only trope or even a good [or best'] one. How about the person who permits his friends to die when he could easily save them, and instead chooses to help many more complete strangers survive? That could easily be argued as a heroic, if tragic action. Rather than choose himself, he chose others, at a great price. Really, it can easily be argued that what you described is irresponsible. What if you´re the last one who can reasonably stop this evil? Hoping for the best isn´t exactly a good justification for what ends up happening. Personally, I like both. It just depends on the story you want to tell. Very true. The corollary to "we don't make sacrifices like that" is that the Heroes don't fail due to their refusal to make sacrifices like that. The two go hand in hand, and the players and GM need to be on common ground as to what game they're playing. Much like "Why don't my players act more like Superheroes?" is often properly answered "Because the rest of your world punishes them if they do." The simple trope that there is always some way to succeed (Supers), or that your adversaries advance in power at more or less the same rate you do (pretty much all Fantasy games), if removed, completely change the ground rules. I recall reading an article, many years back, on a Star Trek game, discussing some of the tropes. For example, it referred to the complete lack of hesitation Captain Kirk would have in swapping himself for a hostage crewmember. But it then followed this up with a discussion of the corollary - no matter how hopeless the situation Kirk was then in, there was ALWAYS a way out. The Captain never blasted in with the full fury of a starship. But when the chips were down and things were at their darkest "Phasers, Cap'n? Ye've got 'em! I managed to restore one bank!" If you want more realistic sci fi, you need to accept that the characters will behave more pragmatically, based on how their world works. "Let the dice fall where they may" creates a very different playstyle than "Never let the dice interfere with the story." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick ...no good deed goes unpunished... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick ...no good deed goes unpunished... And the players quickly learn that good deeds are for suckers. I'm lookin' out for Number One. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Sure it does. The problem with vigilantism (directed at actual wrongdoers) is that it disrupts the social order and thereby makes us all less safe in the long run. If there is no social order to disrupt' date=' then that's not an issue.[/quote'] How very Lord Of The Flies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick #639 up...that's quite the spell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmakaze Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick #639 up...that's quite the spell. Yeah. That's. Wow. That's going to affect the ecosystem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Ye Gads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Which brings up the question of just how responsible we are for acts committed in altered states, regardless of cause. If we're just as responsible as we would be in our default state, then V is responsible for something pretty seriously Evil by non-D&D standards, or even D&D standards if even one of those targets wasn't Evil (likely considering the number of dragons killed and the allignment rules last time I checked). On the plus side, even considering her current effective level, if she gets to keep any of the XP from that mass kill, she's probably due for a couple of Level Ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick That is unforgivable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkmanDan Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Wow. Just . . . wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick The paranoid cynic in me wonders... ...since V's kids are adopted, will it turn out that they had black dragon in their lineage and get ganked as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garou Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Yeah. That's. Wow. That's going to affect the ecosystem... My first thought was How many XP was casting that worth? The second thought was that V is, if not entirely turned to the dark side, certainly getting fitted for a black cloak and trying out different Sith names. Darth Suvie does have kind of a ring to it, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Some step across the line, others pole vault. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Which brings up the question of just how responsible we are for acts committed in altered states, regardless of cause. If we're just as responsible as we would be in our default state, then V is responsible for something pretty seriously Evil by non-D&D standards, or even D&D standards if even one of those targets wasn't Evil (likely considering the number of dragons killed and the allignment rules last time I checked). On the plus side, even considering her current effective level, if she gets to keep any of the XP from that mass kill, she's probably due for a couple of Level Ups. Taking this one step further, I believe some judicial systems differentiate between a state entered voluntarily and one entered involuntarily. For example, I choose to get liquored up and, while blind drunk, decide it would be cool to fire off a shotgun into the back alley behind my house. I chose to get drunk, so I'm responsible. If my mental functions were instead impaired by, say, a high fever due to illness, or carbon monoxide poison, I'm not responsible since I didn't choose to enter that altered state. V chose the splicing, so would be responsible under that logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Taking this one step further, I believe some judicial systems differentiate between a state entered voluntarily and one entered involuntarily. For example, I choose to get liquored up and, while blind drunk, decide it would be cool to fire off a shotgun into the back alley behind my house. I chose to get drunk, so I'm responsible. If my mental functions were instead impaired by, say, a high fever due to illness, or carbon monoxide poison, I'm not responsible since I didn't choose to enter that altered state. V chose the splicing, so would be responsible under that logic. Yeah. I was thinking down a similar line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Some step across the line, others pole vault. Wow. And others jus napalm the line in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick I need that spell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick I need that spell. I do too, but I need a version of it that doesn't take me out as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick We have a cool new villain to take down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Just a counterpoint, as much as I would deplore such an act in the real world or anything resembling it, in a world where dragons are Color Coded For Your Convenience and some colors are Always Chaotic Evil, in an objective and verifiable sense, then wouldn't ridding the world of a large number of such dragons be a Good-aligned act? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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