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Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx


Hyper-Man
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I have seen a lot of threads on Block, Dive For Cover, Dodge and Missle Deflection lately.

 

A lot of them seem to be about applying rules based on one particular sfx interpretation.

 

I think this has a lot to do with the names of the manuevers themselves.

 

Here are my suggestions for alternatives that might mitigate some of the confusion:

 

Free maneuvers:

  • Passive Evade - replaces Dodge. I use 'passive' to highlight that it affects all attacks equally well.
  • Active Evade - replaces Block. I use 'active' to highlight that it targets a specific attack with the intent of getting ahead of an attackers higher DEX (initiative).
  • 1-Shot Evade - replaces Dive-For-Cover. I use '1-Shot' to hightlight how it only affects 1 particular attack* in a phase and actually lowers overall DCV vs all other attacks whether it succeeds or not. Attacks occuring after the Evading character's acting DEX (aborted action or not) will not be negatively affected.

Martial maneuvers:

  • Martial Passive Evade - replaces Martial Dodge.
  • Martial Active Evade - replaces Martial Block.
  • Martial Moving Evade - replaces Flying Dodge which is already an Improved Dive-For-Cover/Martial Dodge combination.

Powered manuervers:

  • Active Evade/Ranged - replaces Missle Deflection.
  • Active Evade/Ranged/Reflection - replaces Missle Deflection plus Reflection.

I'll be the first to admit that the martial and powered versions do not roll off the tongue as easy as the originals but they ALL use a consistent language to describe variations on a consistent idea: actions designed to avoid taking damage.

 

Comments welcome.

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

do we get to rename all the other powers with implied SFX as well?

Sure, isn't that what Hero Designer encourages you to do when designing powers anyway?

 

I don't expect anyone to actually use these in a game. I see the value in using it as an illustration of the relationship between all the defensive maneuvers for those players who get hung up on the 'name' of something as opposed to the 'effect'.

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

I suggest:

 

Active Defense: Replaces Block. Based on the idea that you roll something

Full Defense: Replaces Dodge: Based on the idea its the character devoting themselves fully to Defense

Evasive Manuver: The character combines movement and Defense.

 

Missile Deflection could be renamed: Active Ranged Defense and Melee Reflection could be a seperate power.

 

Energy Blast: Ranged Normal Attack or simply Ranged Attack

 

Entangle COULD be renamed Incapciate or something similar to include things like Mental Entangles and Paralytic effects that have nothing to do with tangling the target.

 

 

Flash might be called: Disable Sense

 

Darkness could be renamed: Disable Perception

 

Invisibility: Evade Sense

 

Shapeshifting is tricky: One form of it actually does represent shifting your shape. Maybe Deceive Sense with shapeshift vs Touch being written up as "True Shapeshift" or Form Change

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

In many ways, this reminds me of what I call Capital Letter Syndrome in D&D.

There's a difference between a Barbarian (a class) and a barbarian (any savage, uncultured individual). There's a difference between an Assassin (a Prestige Class) and an assassin (anybody who kills for money). There's a difference between a Rogue (a class) and a rogue (a scoundrel).

 

By the same token, there's a difference between a Block (an OCV vs OCV defense maneuver) and a block (intercepting an attack with your hand or a shield).

 

It's just a matter of shedding preconceptions and realizing that you can model different things in different ways and realizing that you have wiggle room in terms of Special Effects. I don't think it's possible to get rid of Capital Letter Syndrome without adding *way* too much verbiage to things (as Hyperman mentioned, some of that doesn't roll off the tongue ...). You just have to train yourself and your players that the Capital Letter doesn't mean all that much. :)

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

In many ways, this reminds me of what I call Capital Letter Syndrome in D&D.

There's a difference between a Barbarian (a class) and a barbarian (any savage, uncultured individual). There's a difference between an Assassin (a Prestige Class) and an assassin (anybody who kills for money). There's a difference between a Rogue (a class) and a rogue (a scoundrel).

 

By the same token, there's a difference between a Block (an OCV vs OCV defense maneuver) and a block (intercepting an attack with your hand or a shield).

 

It's just a matter of shedding preconceptions and realizing that you can model different things in different ways and realizing that you have wiggle room in terms of Special Effects. I don't think it's possible to get rid of Capital Letter Syndrome without adding *way* too much verbiage to things (as Hyperman mentioned, some of that doesn't roll off the tongue ...). You just have to train yourself and your players that the Capital Letter doesn't mean all that much. :)

 

this looks like a job for LETTERMAN!!

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

Sure' date=' isn't that what Hero Designer encourages you to do when designing powers anyway?[/quote']

No. You don't rename the Power in HD. You name the power instance than happens to be built using a Power. A character might have two identical EBs that you name, "Joe," and, "Barney," in order to refer back to them later (hopefully you do pick names more reflective of the nature of the power, but I think my example illustrates the point I am trying to make). If Joe is Drained, the character decides to use Barney instead. They are both identically built EBs, but they are not the same power.

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

No. You don't rename the Power in HD. You name the power instance than happens to be built using a Power. A character might have two identical EBs that you name' date=' "Joe," and, "Barney," in order to refer back to them later (hopefully you [i']do[/i] pick names more reflective of the nature of the power, but I think my example illustrates the point I am trying to make). If Joe is Drained, the character decides to use Barney instead. They are both identically built EBs, but they are not the same power.

 

I understand this.

 

Human-Torch firing his Flame Blast gets described in HERO terms as an Energy Blast; Thor throwing his hammer gets described in HERO terms as an Energy Blast. etc....

 

Like CrosshairCollie said, 'Energy Blast' is a HERO term. 'energy blast' is a sfx description that may or may not match the HERO term.

 

If the HERO term was the correct sfx for every situation there would be no need for HeroDesigner to have the option for a 'Power Name'.

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  • 5 months later...

Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

Evade has it's SFX implied just as much as Block. Using Evade it implies you can't put your arm up to stop the punch (as that's not really evading it's blocking), just as Block implies that you can't move your head out of the way of the punch. You've just swapped the implication. If that makes you feel better, have at it, I'll stick with block though.

 

Dodge has the exact same implications as Evade, so I don't see the gain there.

 

1-shot Evade has too many other implications and makes it more complicated than it has to be.

 

As was mentioned earlier, I think Energy Blast is the most misleading. I mean you have:

Killing Attack

Ranged Killing Attack

 

Hand Attack

Energy Blast :nonp:

 

Now I don't know if Ranged Hand Attack would be much better, but what about Ranged Attack?

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

Killing Attack

Ranged Killing Attack

 

Hand Attack

Energy Blast :nonp:

 

Now I don't know if Ranged Hand Attack would be much better, but what about Ranged Attack?

To be really consistent it should have been...

 

Normal Attack (NA)

Ranged Normal Attack (RNA)

Killing Attack (KA)

Ranged Killing Attack (RKA)

 

Normal Defense

Resistant Defense

 

Normal should be used when it reflects what is the most common or the norm. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

Evade has it's SFX implied just as much as Block. Using Evade it implies you can't put your arm up to stop the punch (as that's not really evading it's blocking), just as Block implies that you can't move your head out of the way of the punch. You've just swapped the implication. If that makes you feel better, have at it, I'll stick with block though.

 

Dodge has the exact same implications as Evade, so I don't see the gain there.

 

1-shot Evade has too many other implications and makes it more complicated than it has to be.

 

As was mentioned earlier, I think Energy Blast is the most misleading. I mean you have:

Killing Attack

Ranged Killing Attack

 

Hand Attack

Energy Blast :nonp:

 

Now I don't know if Ranged Hand Attack would be much better, but what about Ranged Attack?

 

You completely missed the point of my original post on this thread.

 

Too many players associate sfx to the label given to a specific maneuver mechanic. As I previously pointed out, I don't think my suggestions are any 'better' than the originals. My suggestions were only intended to illustrate the mechanical relationship between all the defensive manuevers in a consistent language. I only chose the word 'evade' as a unifying label because it was not already used within HERO. Attacking that choice of label by assigning a specific sfx to it is pointless.

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

Whilst it is just possible that the origin post is ever so slightly tongue in cheek, it does make a valid point that descriptive names, like 'dodge' do conjure a certain action to mind.

 

Now personally I prefer to think of dodging as dodging, i.e. getting out of the way, and blocking as some sort of deflection. Whilst it is nice to be able to define things how you like i.e. apply your own sfx, even to combat manouvres, the general principle is that once sfx (and point of origin) are determined they do not change unless you buy an appropriate advantage, so a 'strike' could be a punch, kick, headbut, elbow, or whatever, but once you decide what it is, then it should generally stick there. I don't think it is unreasonable to charge 1 point to allow charaters to buy multiple redundant versions of basic combat manouvres to enable them to have multiple sfx for such manouvres. It would certainly make fighting styles more distinctive even if you have not bought a martial art.

 

A character might define his basic strike as a punch and buy another as a kick. I'd think if you wanted to use a sfx you had not specifically defined and purchased, it would bo appropriate to allow it but at an OCV penalty of 1 or 2 points, so if the punch/kick man wanted to headbut, he would do so at a small penalty, so presumably he would only do so if there was some real need - i.e. he could not use his hands and feet.

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

In many ways, this reminds me of what I call Capital Letter Syndrome in D&D.

There's a difference between a Barbarian (a class) and a barbarian (any savage, uncultured individual). There's a difference between an Assassin (a Prestige Class) and an assassin (anybody who kills for money). There's a difference between a Rogue (a class) and a rogue (a scoundrel).

 

By the same token, there's a difference between a Block (an OCV vs OCV defense maneuver) and a block (intercepting an attack with your hand or a shield).

 

It's just a matter of shedding preconceptions and realizing that you can model different things in different ways and realizing that you have wiggle room in terms of Special Effects. I don't think it's possible to get rid of Capital Letter Syndrome without adding *way* too much verbiage to things (as Hyperman mentioned, some of that doesn't roll off the tongue ...). You just have to train yourself and your players that the Capital Letter doesn't mean all that much. :)

 

Agreed.

 

It's much easier to just ignore the names and read the descriptions. If the name confuses you, replace the name with a nonsense word and read it again, then try to determine what it really does.

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

Naming is important because of the way people approach things. I think HM makes good suggestions here; however it's done, I think in general a renaming in future editions for many abilities would elminate confusion we often see here on the boards, not entirely of course but in some significant portion.

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

New maneuver name suggestions:

 

Don't Get Hurt (all attacks)

Don't Get Hurt (one attack; HTH)

Don't Get Hurt (one attack; ranged)

Get out of the Way (one attack/aoe attack, included movement)

Get out of the Way Improved (one attack/aoe attack; included movement; no DEX roll)

 

These are pretty straight forward, right? Boring, but straight forward.

 

I have a mild suggestion. How about a guideline or somesuch, maybe just a "you can do this, it's OK" note in the rules, about changing the names of maneuvers to suit the campaign. It already suggests this for Martial Maneuver specifically, but not for standard maneuvers. I think it should.

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

New maneuver name suggestions:

 

Don't Get Hurt (all attacks)

Don't Get Hurt (one attack; HTH)

Don't Get Hurt (one attack; ranged)

Get out of the Way (one attack/aoe attack, included movement)

Get out of the Way Improved (one attack/aoe attack; included movement; no DEX roll)

 

These are pretty straight forward, right? Boring, but straight forward.

 

I have a mild suggestion. How about a guideline or somesuch, maybe just a "you can do this, it's OK" note in the rules, about changing the names of maneuvers to suit the campaign. It already suggests this for Martial Maneuver specifically, but not for standard maneuvers. I think it should.

 

LOL!

I agree with your sentiment but you don't have enough examples to cover the mechanical differences between some manuevers. A HERO Block does more than any of your 'Don't Get Hurt' examples (Higher Dex vs. character blocked on next shared phase).

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

LOL!

I agree with your sentiment but you don't have enough examples to cover the mechanical differences between some manuevers. A HERO Block does more than any of your 'Don't Get Hurt' examples (Higher Dex vs. character blocked on next shared phase).

 

True, but I thought "Don't Get Hurt And Go Before The Guy Who Tried To Hurt You In Your Next Phase And Keep Not Getting Hurt By Other Attacks At A Cumulative Penalty" was a bit too long.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 2 years later...

Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

Honestly, I would not be surprised to see some variation on the ideas presented here used in 6e when it comes out.

 

That said, if you have UMA, you see the rules for creating your own maneuvers - so you can create something that is functionally equivalent to Dodge, call it Interpretive Dance if you choose to, or even tweak it some to include some OCV bonuses.

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Re: Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

That said' date=' if you have UMA, you see the rules for creating your own maneuvers - so you can create something that is functionally equivalent to Dodge, call it Interpretive Dance if you choose to, or even tweak it some to include some OCV bonuses.[/quote']

 

Many of the martial arts in UMA have had the maneuvers renamed. For example, the, "Clinch" in Boxing is a Martial Grab.

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