Rule of X ideas?

[Chuk]

Does anyone have any guidelines for a good Rule of X for Hero?

 

This is spurred by a discussion on Pyramid -- one of the posters was coming from Fuzion and wondering if there was anything similar for Hero 5th. I used to have a GM that did something like it and I was curious as to what people here do to make sure their combats are balanced. Heroic and/or super-heroic.

[Trebuchet]

In my campaign we use a guideline of SPEED + Damage Class <= 20. This makes for fast martial artists who don't hit as hard as the slower but more powerful bricks and energy projectors.

 

Even more important than a Rule of X is communication between the players so they don't step on each other's "schtick". On my team of 7 heroes we have 3 martial artists and they are all very different from each other in abilities and personality.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Without meaning to sound like a jerk, the best advice I can offer about a Rule of X is, "Don't use one." No formula will prevent all abuse, and any formula will end up excluding something that actually isn't abusive. You don't need a Rule of X. You need a GM who has a clear vision of how he or she wants things to relate and work in their game world, and players who want to participate in that. If you have those, you're set.

 

This doesn't mean that all "caps" are bad. But trying to have a single "master formula" that balances everything has never worked, in my experience.

[Guest Keneton]

My System

 

Sounding like Aaron Nimzovitch there for a sec!

 

Please see DH#3 for The Effectiveness Rating. This is a 12 years playtested system that has evolved to rate and control campaigns in numerous states and with extremely varying power levels. It has yet to fail!

 

We use a cap of 100 for player characters on the ER. The Spreadsheet is availlable for free in the Fee Stuff section of this board. The URL is given below.

 

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/FreeStuff/csheets.htm

 

I accept e-mails from players with ER questions and try to be quick on responses. If you have a chance to read the article, you will find the mechanics sound.

 

I am not stating that this sytem replaces a proactive GM, but I ma saying that this tool makes GM rulings sound and fair from a mathmatical standpoint and not arbitrary.

 

Anyone who knows me will attest to the soundness of my approach and I highly reccomend it.

[JSenecal]

Digital Hero #3 has an effectivness rating that is the most comprehensive rule of X I've ever seen. The Excel spreedsheet for calcuating it is here: http://herogames.com/FreeStuff/charactersheets/New%20EF%20Rating.xls

 

I've collected several others that are much simpler, though they have know weaknesses that a GM needs to watch for.

[Guest Keneton]

Thanks for the plug J. I credit my friends in TN; Mitch Mike Ron, John, Steve x2, and Joe for helping playtest the ER. Mike was the math freak that created this monster, and I am the author of the article. It is a pretty boring read (as most math heavy studd is) but can and does properly rate the combat effectiveness of any character.

 

We use a cap of 100 for our campaign with a veteran bonus set at 100 ep. For most starting campaigns I might adjsut the veteran bonus to 50. Mitch has a 100 ER character with nearly 2000 earned ep!

 

When a sytem allows you to balance 2300 point characters, you know it is good!

[GradonSilverton]

Why not keep it simple and just limit a active point cost to say....35?

[Old Man]

Because then you get weak characters that cannot go desolid and cannot get full life support

[GradonSilverton]

Sure they can....they just cant go Desolid while effecting the real world with the 6d6 Area Effect AP Ego Blast...

 

Bump the Active point cost up if you desire...

 

But this is a simple way to maintain a playablility level without players being able to destroy balance...

[Guest Keneton]

How could you have that 90 point power you gave as an example if the active point cost was limited to 35!?

 

6d6 AP Ego attack = 90 active!

How could they go desolid (40 active minimum?) or have full life support (45)

 

Who wants a chracter that has a max attack of 7d6 normal?

 

 

[Ndreare]

The system IO use for my games is

 

Rule of X (Combined Offence and Deffence with no more than a 50% Variance between the two.)

Activepoints in attack + (OCV*5) + Active Points in Speed= offensive x

 

Active Points in ALL Defence + (DCV*5)= Deffencive X

 

Example:

Super Heroes Rule of X =400

Strength 60, Speed 4, OCV 8= 140 Offensive X

Armor 30 rPD 20 rED, 10 Flash Deffence, 20 Body, 60 stun and 5 DCV= 210 Deffensive CombatValue

Well with in the 400 limit.

 

This allows character that are primaraly deffecive or offensive, does not penalize the character who is neer immune to energy with a giant penalty as if he had high deffences all the way around, and works well for mages or psys becouse it counts their values for mental deffences and powers not just dice of effect.

 

I have used this system since forth (Even before "Fuzion" was know to me) and it always worked fine.

 

Fantasy: 200

Heroic Black Ops: 300

Super Heroic: 400

Cosmic: 600

I have never tested it above cosmic level heroes.

[Guest Keneton]

So the strength 60 = 60 active points, but what if he has 50" of movement and +10 levels with move through and can crank out a 28d6 movethough at the same 8 OCV. Your formula leaves a HUGE hole. I am not trying to sound critical, but you leave open all types of things like find weakness, movement, fast draw, desolidification, and damage shileds to name a few.

 

Also lets be very reasonale and imagine that the sytem could allow for a 250 Offensive and a 150 Defensive. For the offensive I take. . .

 

20 OCV, 8 Speed, 4 1/2d6 HKA (which I can easily push to crank out 5+1 Killing!)

My DCV Max is also 20 with 18 Defense Both ways and 14 points of exotic defenses covering flash, mental and resistant 10/10.

 

This character would grease Mechanon inside of a turn, and is easily fare under your system.

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

This doesn't mean that all "caps" are bad. But trying to have a single "master formula" that balances everything has never worked, in my experience.

 

I agree. It is obviouse from the fact that you've all found holes in methods, that using a "rule of X" is just as much work for the GM as just looking at the character and saying"does that realy need to be that high?" I personally would never put that much enphisis on a rule. If it makes sense and isn't too powerful, it's good. If during the game you find that it actually is to powerful and disrupts game ballance, then have the player change it. NEVER let a player play a character you haven't looked at. That's the "rule" we use.

[Guest Keneton]

CL

 

My system does work. I am not belittling others to get rid of systems, nor does my system replace common sense and a good GM, but it has survived playtesting and publication to work well.

 

The main reason we developed the ER was to allow for multiple GM's. In our group all of the players are over 30 years old with REAL lives. We need to share GM responsibility. I am the main GM, but others often write games. We need a system that makes play balanced with multiple GM's without being arbitrary.

 

Even Marvel had the bullpen for years, and the result was a more balanced power level than found in silver age DC.

[GradonSilverton]

Kenton said "How could you have that 90 point power you gave as an example if the active point cost was limited to 35!?

 

6d6 AP Ego attack = 90 active!

How could they go desolid (40 active minimum?) or have full life support (45)

 

Who wants a chracter that has a max attack of 7d6 normal?"

 

I realized after my posting the I did not clarify this correctly... If you want to allow for Desolid, Life Support, Ect. put the Max for that Amount. If you want someone to Posses the 90 power, then your Max is 90 Active points. What I'm saying is utilize what Hero already has to create your Rule of X.

 

Dont bring in more math and make character creation even more drawn out. Use whats there for you.

[Guest Keneton]

Even limiting active points is not enough. High CV's and Speed combined with small hand kills equal quick KO's. The ER is a balanced system that evaluates several factors. Other systems exist such as AD's metaverse sytem and the old school Combat Rating from AC#1. Ours is just a very effective version of one.

 

I am also not suggesting adding this to character creation. Nearly all starting 350 superheroes are between 70 and 95 in the ER anyways.

 

[GradonSilverton]

My point on the Xtra math in the creation process is that the ideals behind rule of X is that no powers, defense, ect can excede X. Thus, while creating you have to preform Math outside of the character to make sure you are not violating X.

 

If one insistes on using a formule, I have seen that having a Rule of X for Offense and a different one for Defense is nearly essential. Its hard to have a target number from a formule that says Offensive can be X while Defense can be the same X and remained balanced....

 

That is actually one reason why I'm not totally against your idea...but not utilizing speed in both is a mistake...I can Use my speed as offensive and defensive...

 

Looking at your example and using the 28d6 attack as my number...your gouy would average 98 on his Move through...using his own defense....thats 68 stun through the Armor/PD....not to mention the amount of BODY on a 28d6 roll... instant end of combat.

[Discordian]

Re: My System

 

Originally posted by Keneton

Sounding like Aaron Nimzovitch there for a sec!

 

Please see DH#3 for The Effectiveness Rating. This is a 12 years playtested system that has evolved to rate and control campaigns in numerous states and with extremely varying power levels. It has yet to fail!

 

Since starting that discussion over at Pyramid (yep, that was me) I've found the ER spread sheet over here, but it's rather, er, cryptic, in parts. Is there a description on how to use it available?

 

/Anders

[Guest Keneton]

This is a job for Mathman!!

 

The entire article explaining the math, the fields, and the logic behind it is found in DH#3.

 

If you have any questions I will answer via e-mail.

 

Otherwise, just enter the number requested in the field and it will automatically calculate your ER.

 

 

Good Luck

[JSenecal]

Here's a system we used for a while, where X is equal between offense and defense:

 

Offensive X = Active points in attact + 5 * OCV

Defensive X = 5 * DCV + PD + ED + STUN/2 + REC/4

 

Limitations of this formula is that it doesn't take into account SPD, nor powers and abilities that boost combat effectiveness such as find weakness, darkness, or invisibility. Damage reduction is handled by increasing STUN & REC in the formula.

 

We figured that a normal super would be 100 in both defense and offense. For our game we wanted low powered supers, so we were using 80 offense and 100 defense.

[tesuji]

I dont use rule of X but instead look at various metrics...

 

Against what DCVs will they have 75% chance of a hit (only missing on 13+)?

 

Against what DCVs will they have 75% chance of a miss ( missing on 9+)?

 

Lather rinse repeat for OCVs and generally wanting no answers to be more than 25%.

 

What is their stun number (damage which will con stun them on a single shot) and how frequent is that amoung my villains?

 

What is the KO number (same as above but unconscious) and how frequent is it amoung my villais?

 

Lather, rinse repeat for PC attacks looking for no number over 10%.

 

IMO the olde adage of trading off OCV vs HITDIE is really not as valid a metric anymore because there are so many ways to reduce enemy DCV for a brief period. Sure the 4 ocv 18d6 move thru might seem plausible in a 12d6 10 ocv world, but after the first 3d6 entangle "entangle and target take damage" is timed to go off right before the move thru, this "trade off" becomes much less significant. Cvs vary a lot more widely than they used to in combat. As such i tend to balance the crunch level a lot more than i worry with the CV.

[Guest Keneton]

These are also solved by the ER.

 

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Keneton

So the strength 60 = 60 active points, but what if he has 50" of movement and +10 levels with move through and can crank out a 28d6 movethough at the same 8 OCV. Your formula leaves a HUGE hole. I am not trying to sound critical, but you leave open all types of things like find weakness, movement, fast draw, desolidification, and damage shileds to name a few.

 

Also lets be very reasonale and imagine that the sytem could allow for a 250 Offensive and a 150 Defensive. For the offensive I take. . .

 

20 OCV, 8 Speed, 4 1/2d6 HKA (which I can easily push to crank out 5+1 Killing!)

My DCV Max is also 20 with 18 Defense Both ways and 14 points of exotic defenses covering flash, mental and resistant 10/10.

 

This character would grease Mechanon inside of a turn, and is easily fare under your system.

 

You are not looking at this with the correct line of thinking these things are always limited by common sense. Any body reguardless of the system can create abuse. lets look at the 60 active point thing

 

1d6-1 RKA: avld, Lack of Weakness +1 1/2; Does Body +1/2; Auto Fire +1/2; 0-end +1. here is an attack that will hurt any being under the sun even Doctor D. (Can you think of any printed character with Resistent Lack of Weakness)

 

Any rule of X should be a guideline with common sense kicking in when looking at abusive charcters.

 

I did not say my system was perfect just that it has never failed me.

[Guest Keneton]

Lack of weakness is never resistant or non resistant. You take lack to cover normal or resitant defenses, that is why no one has it. You do not buy DR and apply it to you lack or place lack in a force field.

 

The point of my argument is to build a sytem that defies abuse. We have!

 

Read it before you critique it. Your mentioned attack is illegal becuse no such defense exist, but lets say it was vs. regular lack. Doc D has -10 so it bounces. In fact most of my PC's have at least 5 points of lack. Yeah I'll take 10 or 11 total Stun, so what?

 

A straight 4d6 kill is far more threatening than this google attack.

 

My post was just pointing out that this other rule of X sytem did not limit the characters at all. In fact it allowed an ungodly OCV DCV Character to be created. Please re-read the post for the second example.

[Guest Keneton]

I am following up my prior post to explain why this means something to me. I apologize if my post have seemed snoty or haughty. I truely am only attempting to help.

 

Game balance is one of the chief weaknesses of point based systems. You gain flexibility over level based sytems, but you give up control. We have endeavored to developed a system that is not arbitrary to make up for this weakness while retaining the inherint strength of unrestricted character design.

 

Rules of X that restrict OCV, DCV, Damage etc... generally lead to chracters that are efficeint copy cats. It becomes clear that CV overshadows damage in most cases and that Speed is a good buy. Also these sytems never seem to resrict high cons, efficent recoveries, aids, and perception which are all so important in combat.

 

Arpad Elo invented the Elo rating for Chess and the Slope for Golf. These are mathematical ratings of ability and difficulty. Our ER was designed to do the same for Champions and do it accurately.

 

The tool is not just useful to stop abuse, because as noted abuse takes many subtle forms. It is used to develope challenging encounters ny matching villains ER's vs. Charcters and allow for fun tactical combats, noy lopsided routes.

 

JSenecal made a post about his method. This makes sense to me, but in my mind is too restrictive. Ex:

 

The 100 rating for supers offensively would not allow for even a weak brick.

 

50 Strength Brick with an 18 Dex and 2 levels with HTH (Come On. . . this is like Bulldozer!)

 

Haymaker OCV=6+2=8

Haymaker Active=70

 

Add to J's formula. . .

70+(8*5)=110.

 

Now lets see a martial artist like say Cheshire Cat. Certainly none says he's a powerhouse.

 

We will rate his Defensive Strike (even though this is a weak maneuver for him. His base OCV is 8 +1 for the maneuver, +2 HTH = 11. This counts as 55 for J's formula.

 

His damage is 8d6 (40 Active) + Hand Attack (20 Active)= 60

55+60=105. Even Cheshire Cat is too tough for this campaign.

 

No offense, J but even starting guys like the Champions dont work under this rule of X unless I am missing something.