Rule of X ideas?

[Guest Keneton]

I am glad you are enjoying the discussion. As before for the "Flame guy" defense, I see no problem in discounting such powers to their limited active points, but ONLY when such limitations were part of their character concept. Not for example due to OIHID or FOCUS, or INCREASED END COST etc. . .

 

This opens the ER to judgment calls (which is another reason I left it out), but overall does make sense.

 

Limited DR's could even be built differntly on the power level, but that's a whole other thread!

[JamesG]

Glad you could join us Jsenecal ! And doubly glad you see my point.

Seriously, your example was eloquently stated.

 

K,

I agree that not just ANY limitation be used to reduce a power’s rating in the ER. It must be restrictive enough to reduce the power to “gimmick†status (like a small number of charges) and/or be very character-conception focused (like the DR only vs Fire examples). Preferably both. I’m totally on board that limitations such as OIHID or FOCUS, or INCREASED END COST should probably never apply. Unfortunately, it will add in GM judgment calls to the ER, as he/she will need to decide what lims to count and what not.

 

In general, I think defense powers will end up being limited in the ER more often than attack powers. But the ‘one-charge, boosted attack’ that I brought up earlier that is discussed in 5E Champions is one example of a gimmick attack that would qualify for the discount.

 

Going back to the discussion on the “multiple attack surchargeâ€, it is something I would want to add, but you have convinced me it needs a cap so as not to overly restrict PCs with vast experience. I did find another flaw in my original proposal; the points added to the ER were not proportional to the power/effectiveness of the additional attacks. New revision: Add a new section to the ER spreadsheet right after Most Effective Attack called Multiple Attacks. For each significantly different attack that the character has that is within the MAF (defined a few posts back), add 1/30 of the ER points for each such attack to the ER total, to maximum of 10.

 

Hmm, that reads confusing, but a short example may clarify. The example PC has a Most Effect Attack of a 12d6 EB, with an OCV of 11 and a DCV of 9 and a half move of 10â€. This rates 34 ER. The PC also has a 6d6 NND EB, with OCV 10, DCV 9 and Move again 10, which rates 33 ER. Under the current system, the 2nd attack would not impact the ER at all. Under my system, the 2nd attack would add 33/30=1.1 to the ER of this PC. But the most that could ever be added for all multiple attacks together is 10 ER points total.

 

Obviously the cap of 10 and divisor of 30 are subject to further revision, they are just numbers that seemed about right, off the top of my head.

 

The big question is what constitutes “significantly differentâ€. My initial thoughts:

Different from each other: Normal Damage Attack, Killing Damage Attack, NND, AVLD, AoE/Explosion, Entangle, Mental Power, Adjustment Power, Transform, Useable as Attack

Not different: Martial Maneuvers, most duplicates from the above list (such as having two AoE EBs with different areas. But having an EB, an AoE EB, an Entangle and an AoE Entangle would be 4 attacks).

Gray Areas: Armor Piercing, Increased Stun Multipliers and Penetrating. Not sure if adding one or more of these should make something a “significantly different†attack. Duplicate advantage on different Damage basis. Should a NND EB be considered a “significantly different†attack from a NND RKA?

 

I’m sure there are more types of attacks, but that’s enough to start discussion. I'm interested in comments, particularly on the “gray areasâ€

[Guest Keneton]

Attacks should be arted as to which defense they attack.

 

Vs. ED= 1 Cat

VS PD 1 Cat

VS Power Defense 1 Cat

Vs Mental 1 cat

Vs Flash 1 Cat

VS None 1 Cat

 

Areas and ranged attacks are already covered by the ER

 

[JamesG]

Bob you are a genius!

 

That’s perfect! So simple and elegant, I’m kicking myself for not thinking of it originally.

 

I’d add a category for AoE attack (your highest ER rated AoE/Explosion attack would go here) and remove the ‘Area or Explosion Attack(s)’ line item from the Capabilities section (but leave the ‘Autofire w/Area/Explosion Attack(s)’ item there). This category would be unique in that, while all others are only rated if they are in addition to the PC’s Most Effective Attack, AoE is always rated, even if it is also the Most Effective Attack or not within the MAF.

 

I would also add an Entangle category, for the highest rated Entangle (that is within the MAF, and not the PC’s Most Effective Attack).

 

Lastly, an Other category. Not sure what might go here, but some player will think of something.

 

I notice you didn’t suggest separate categories for PD and rPD (ditto ED/rED), so for example an EB (vs energy) and an RKA (vs energy) would not count as two attacks. Still thinking on this one. What about an AVLD vs rPD? That would just count as an attack vs the PD category on your list, right?

 

Also, I was thinking the Cap on the Multiple Attack surcharge should not be a fixed 10, but the ER rating of the campaign divided by 10. So in a 100 ER supers game it would be 10, but only 5 in a 50 ER Star Hero game.

 

Do you think my Cap suggestion above and Divisor value of 30 sound about right?

[Spyritwind]

Champions Campaign

 

Characters 350 pts. Base 225 + 125 disads.

 

General Standards for starting characters and moderately powered supers.

Attacks: 50-60 Active; Rarely lower; occasionally higher especially if with advantages.

Defense: From x 1.5 your attack dice (if a normal attack) low, to x 2 your attack if normal and x 2.5 high. Low 15-19, Moderate 20-25, High 26-30.

Dex: 18-30 Average is 23. Can go over for super human dexterity.

Spd: 4-8 Average is 5-6. Rarely over 7.

Combat Skill Levels: Usually no more than 2, but combat experts up to 4. More than 4 very rare.

 

Character Power Level System: Should not equal more than 165. This is not referring to character points, but is a system to try to make sure characters are balanced with the other players and game world. It also helps to limit the characters power level so points will be spent on spreading the character out and not just to increase power.

 

Attack: Active points of highest attack.

Defense: Total Pd & Ed in points:

No resistant defenses: – 10 pts.

Low resistant defenses: – 5 pts. (1/3 of defense, or less); perhaps less than 9

Moderate resistant defenses: no modifier (More than 1/3 or Less than 2/3 of defenses); perhaps less than 16

High resistant defenses: + 5 (2/3 of defenses, or more)

Special defenses: + 5 for each one. Examp: Lack of weakness, hardened defense, flash defense, Mental defense, etc.

Damage Reduction: ¼ 5 pts. ½ 10 pts. ¾ 15 pts.

Resistant DR: ¼ 7.5 pts. ½ 15 pts. ¾ 22.5 pts.

Pd or Ed more than 30 is multiplied by 1.5 for determining Combat Value. Damage Reduction ‘adds’ to Pd or Ed for determining whether or not defenses are over 30.

Example: A character with 20 Pd, 20 Ed, ½ damage resistant with ½ resistant damage reduction for Pd and Ed would be equivalent to 35 Pd and 35 Ed; there for the combat value would be equal to 75 instead of 70.

Pd or Ed more than 35 is doubled for determining Combat Value.

Speed: Speed characteristic x 10.

Combat Value:

6 = -10 7 = -5 8 = +0 9 = +5 10 = +10 11 = +15

Combat Value Modifiers: + 5 per two levels pertaining to combat & + 5 for martial arts.

Mobility:

Slow: - 5 for characters with less than 11†of ground movement, swinging, or tunneling. Leaping less than 16â€. No flight, or teleport.

Moderate: Characters with flight, or teleport automatically qualify for at least this level.

Fast: + 5 Characters with more than 20†of ground movement, swinging, flight, teleport or tunneling. More than 25†leaping.

Misc: Characters with an unusual amount of senses, really good sense powers, unusually effective tactics/powers etc.

 

Guides & Templates: Do not have to be used, but can give you something to start with. The numbers do not refer to character points, but instead to the combat value system listed above.

 

Brick:

Attack: 65 (Strength)

Defense: 70 (30 Pd, 30 Ed, High resistance, one special defense)

Speed: 40 (Speed 4)

CV: - 5 (18 Dex, 2 levels with favored maneuvers)

Mobility: -5 (Slow ground pounder)

Total: 165

 

Energy Projector:

Attack: 50 (10d6 Energy Blast)

Defense: 55 (Force Field and figured Pd & Ed equal to 25 Pd/Ed, moderate resistance, one special defense)

Speed: 50 (Speed 5)

CV: +5 (23 Dex, 2 levels w/eb)

Mobility: +5 (Flight – less than 20â€)

Total: 165

 

Martial Artist:

Attack: 50 (10d6 offensive strike)

Defense: 30 (20 Pd & 15 Ed and one special defense, no resistant defenses)

Speed: 60 (Speed 6)

CV: 20 (30 Dex, Martial Arts, 2 levels)

Mobility: - 5 (Slow)

Misc: +10 (Several options: +1 Spd, +5 Dex, Low resistant defense and an additional special defense, +3 Dex and 2/levels, +2 pd & +3 ed and … etc.)

Total: 165

 

Speedster:

Attack: 45 (9d6, or 7d6 auto fire)

Defense: 20 (15 Pd & 15 Ed, no resistant defenses)

Speed: 70 (Speed 7)

CV: 25 (35 Dex, Martial Arts)

Mobility: 5 High running Spd

 

Mentalist:

Attack: 60 (Most mental powers 12d6)

Defense: 50 (20 Pd/Ed-mostly force field, Mental Defense)

Speed: 50 (5 Speed)

CV: -5 (20 Dex)

Mobility: 5 (Often have flight, or perhaps teleport)

Senses: 5 (Extra sensory perception skills)

 

I realize the above guides do not really tell the whole tale of the character, or their combat effectiveness. For instance bricks inherently have higher stun totals and recovery which is not being accounted for. There fore the above may, under certain circumstances, be bent depending upon character concept.

 

Disadvatages:

Hunteds: Only one allowed and only on an (8-)

DNPCs: Only one allowed and only on an (8-)

 

This section will still need A LOT of work. I only just started this part.

 

Specific Brick Template:

To me bricks are more stereo typical, but that need not be the case entirely. The basic package comes to a combat value of 145 with some options below. The template and add on’s below are just examples.

 

Strength 50 40 15 Damage Reduction 15 Pd & 15 Ed

Dex 18 24 5 Special Defense

Con 25 30 6 +3†Running

Body 15 10 9 3 Skills

Int 10 6 3 Skills

Ego 10

Pre 25 15 6 2 Levels w/punch, grab and block, or throw.

Com 10

Pd 30 20

Ed 30 25

Spd 4 12

Rec 15

End 50

Stun 53 ___

176 Combat Value: 145

2nd add ons:

The Moose: +20 Strength, +5 Con, +5 Body 40 pts. (+20 Combat Value)

Standard: +15 Str, +3 Con, +2 Body, resistant defenses to 20 Pd & 20 Ed

30 pts. (+20 Combat Value)

Flying brick: +10 Strength, + 2 Dex, 15†flight 44 pts. (+20 Combat Value)

Quick brick: +5 Dex, +1 Spd 20 pts. (+20 Combat Value)

Bruiser: +10 Strength, ½ Physical Damage Red. 20 pts. (+20 Combat Value)

Nearly Invulnerable: +5 Pd, +5 Ed, all completely resistant, choose HD as special defense above and add lack of weakness. 56 pts. (+20 Combat Value)

Light brick/Combat Specialist: Martial arts (only up to 12d6 strike-20 pts. of maneuvers), 2 levels w/martial arts. 26 pts. (+20 Combat Value)

[Spyritwind]

I'll have to check out the DH thing. Sounds cool.

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Bob you are a genius!

 

Originally posted by JamesG

I notice you didn’t suggest separate categories for PD and rPD (ditto ED/rED), so for example an EB (vs energy) and an RKA (vs energy) would not count as two attacks. Still thinking on this one. What about an AVLD vs rPD? That would just count as an attack vs the PD category on your list, right?

 

Also, I was thinking the Cap on the Multiple Attack surcharge should not be a fixed 10, but the ER rating of the campaign divided by 10. So in a 100 ER supers game it would be 10, but only 5 in a 50 ER Star Hero game.

 

Do you think my Cap suggestion above and Divisor value of 30 sound about right?

 

I want to make sure that we are on the same page. My idea was to add one for each capability, not seperately rate each ability as a a seperate category of Most Effective Attack. Using this sytem Keneton would not add any to his ER because he already rates his EB and Strength as vs. PD and he has no area attacks, flashes, drains, entangles etc. His attacks straightforwardly attack PD. He does add 1 for ranged attacks under capabilities.

 

Shade (see above) although would under this sytem add 1 for for each category as she has attacks under each. Since areas are energy attacks are already covered her ER would go up by 4.

 

As for your cap, I'm not sure that it is needed becasue under my suggestion the max adder to ER would be 6 or the equivelent of 3 Combat levels or 2 Speed! Even the most versatile spectrum of attacks is unlikely to be as efficient as two extra speed.

 

Although certainly importnat to rate, players will just avoid deep characters for simple ones to avoid the ER surchrge. We do not want to TAX creativity so to speak.

 

If you wish to rate added attacks differently as to their strengtrh compared to The Most Effective Attack, I feel this adds too much complexity. The idea is clean, but the math (which is already slightly cumbersome) becomes pretty muddy.

 

Once again, you have a good grasp on mechanics and your ideas have sparked some revison work on my side. I am attempting to develope a more streamlined version of the ER since getting involved with this thread.

 

Oh, almost forgot. The other was for NND attacks, but that could be eliminated as they should count against a base defense by nature as Damage Reduction applies to NNDs if appropriate.

 

[JSenecal]

Oh, almost forgot. The other was for NND attacks, but that could be eliminated as they should count against a base defense by nature as Damage Reduction applies to NNDs if appropriate.

 

I think you should keep the other catagory. Although NND's might be considered Physical or Energy, they still bypass defenses, and are very potent.

 

I look forward to seeing your revised and streamlined ER

[JamesG]

Originally posted by Keneton

I want to make sure that we are on the same page. My idea was to add one for each capability, not seperately rate each ability as a a seperate category of Most Effective Attack.

 

If you wish to rate added attacks differently as to their strengtrh compared to The Most Effective Attack, I feel this adds too much complexity. The idea is clean, but the math (which is already slightly cumbersome) becomes pretty muddy.

 

I see what you are saying, but I’m not so sure the additional complexity is all that cumbersome. Especially with a spreadsheet to do most of the work for you. I’d say both ways have merits, but I’m inclined to trade simplicity for accuracy in this case.

 

Maybe I’ll try and work up a revised version of the ER spreadsheet that includes my ideas.

 

As for your cap, I'm not sure that it is needed becasue under my suggestion the max adder to ER would be 6 or the equivelent of 3 Combat levels or 2 Speed! Even the most versatile spectrum of attacks is unlikely to be as efficient as two extra speed.

 

Agreed that under your system of adding a flat +1 for each extra attack capability, a Cap isn’t needed. But I have not given up on my idea of the adder varying with the strength of the attack. On Speed, I think I’m going to have to raise the ER “cost†of that stat. The main GM in my group is pretty terrified of high Speeds and will probably want that change.

 

Although certainly importnat to rate, players will just avoid deep characters for simple ones to avoid the ER surchrge. We do not want to TAX creativity so to speak.

 

I don’t think players will avoid “deep†characters at all. Yes, the versatility will raise their ER cost a little, but that versatility makes them more effective, so it’s only fair. Though maybe the Cap needs to come down some.

 

Once again, you have a good grasp on mechanics and your ideas have sparked some revison work on my side. I am attempting to develope a more streamlined version of the ER since getting involved with this thread.

 

Well, thanks for the compliment.

Hmm, interesting that this discussion is leading to a more streamlined version of the ER, since my suggestions tend to complicate it!

In any case I look forward to seeing it.

 

Oh, almost forgot. The other was for NND attacks, but that could be eliminated as they should count against a base defense by nature as Damage Reduction applies to NNDs if appropriate.

 

Have to agree with Jsenecal, that NNDs are distinct enough from “regular†damage to justify their own category. I feel the same way on Entangles.

 

I’ve also been thinking that instead of ‘vs. PD’ and ‘vs. ED’ being categories, maybe it should be ‘vs. Normal PD/ED’ and ‘vs. Resistant PD/ED’. My thinking is that having a normal damage attack and a killing damage attack is more “versatile†than having a normal attack vs. PD and a normal attack vs. ED. But I’m still considering that one.

[JamesG]

Character Power Level System

 

Spyritwind,

 

I think your Character Power Level System has merit. It captures some of the factors that go into Keneton's ER system (albeit with different weightings). While I think I prefer the greater accuracy and precision offered by the ER, I can certainly understand how some could be put off by its complexity. That was my initilal impression, until I went back and took a closer 2nd look. But for those for whom the ER is just "too much", a system like yours might be just the ticket.

[Guest Keneton]

A Recent E-Mail Question

 

Recently I recieved an e-mail reagrding the ER. A person considering using the ER asked if I could suggest an alternative for rating one shot or limited abilities. In his campaign some PC's have special attacks like those seen in DBZ. In the thread I have already given a method to rate limited special defenses. Understanding that this is an exception to the ER I have developed the following formual for special attacks.

 

Special Attack: Special Attack rating [OCV+DCV+(Move/5)+(AP/5)- Rating of Most Effective Attack]/2

 

In English

 

Rate the character not counting this special attack. As a GM you need to make sure that it is rarely useful. After rating the character get the number from Most Effective Attack (category 1) and note it in the above formula. Now calculate the special attack according to the formula above. Here is an example.

 

Suppose "Son Bookoo" has a special Chi attack that takes a full turn to use. His most effective attack is normally his Chi Blast power a 14 d6 EB. He has a 30 Dex and 4 Levels plus 20" of Flight. His most effective attack is. . .

 

14 (ocv)+ 10 DCV + 14 (70/5) + 2 (10' half move and attack)= 40

 

His Special attack is Triple Beam Attack +10d6 EB X4 End, Gesture, Incantations, Concentrate 1/2 DC, Extra Time Full Turn.

 

This rates 14+5+24+0 (note 0 for move and 1/2 DCV)=43

 

Now use the formula (43-40)/2 adds 1.5 to ER.

 

This is being very lenient, but for your campaign maybe this makes sense.

 

Good Luck

[matthewcelis]

Re: Rule of X ideas?

 

Best rule ever: GM veto on anything he believes will ruin the fun of the game.

[Christopher]

Re: Rule of X ideas?

 

Best rule ever: GM veto on anything he believes will ruin the fun of the game.

It's kind iof coutner-productive to Revive a 8 Year old thread, only to say you don't like it.

 

As of now the idea for a "Rule of X" is part of the general sugestions in the Character Creation Rulebook, as an possible replace for Characteristics/AP Maxima.

 

Also, the main point behind these kind of rules is to give the player a guideline of what will be acceptable/balanced. It's more advanced than maxima/the book guidelines as they don't incorporate certain "Synergy effects" of having (for example) high SPD, High OCV and High Damage.

[Mister E]

Re: Rule of X ideas?

 

Rule of E.

[gojira]

Re: Rule of X ideas?

 

Thread says "brrrraaaaaiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnssssssssss.........."