How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

[Herolover]

I saw someone post on the High Plains Hero thread that they weren't sure how to do Duels in Hero. They seem very simplistic, the guy with the highest DEX goes first and therefore usually wins the fight. That would work if Duels were normal combat, but they aren't. Duels are a special situation and they came about for a very specific purpose. If a person was intent just to kills someone they wouldn't go through the whole process of a duel. They would just walk up behind their target and shoot them. Duels came about because the above situation, just walking up behind someone and shooting them, is not accepted by society. However, killing the same person in a duel is accepted because it gives the appearance that the victim had a chance.

 

There are two types of duels, Timed and Untimed duels. They only real difference between the two is when the shooting begins.

In Untimed duels two opponents, A and B, face off against each other. The object each opponent is trying to achieved is to force their opponent to either back down, thus becoming a coward, or draw their gun therefore becoming justified in shooting and killing them. Yep, a duel is a fine line. You actually want the other guy to draw first, but you want him so harried that he misses his shot.

 

In a duel when a person’s phase comes up he can do one of three things:

a) Draw and try to fire his gun.

Bluff his opponent into thinking he is drawing his gun.

c) Make a Presence attack forcing his opponent to either draw his gun or walk away.

 

a) This starts combat and is ran exactly according to Hero system combat rules.

For the Bluff skill you could use Persuasion, Acting, PS: Gunslinger, or several other skills. Given enough results the target thinks you are drawing your gun and draws his. Usually, I like to give the person bluffed into drawing their gun some minuses to their Fast Draw based upon how well the Bluff succeeded.

c) A presence attack, with appropriate modifiers and bonuses for quips, fancy looking gun, reputation etc can be a powerful tool. Suddenly your target can’t act next phase, or if he can act, can just get his gun out and not shoot.

 

In an untimed duel the opponents would continue trading bluffs and presence attacks until someone drew their gun and from their normal combat would start.

 

A timed duel is the same as an untimed duel except the shooting starts when the handkerchief falls, the gun shoots in the air, the horse passes by, or the town clock chimes 12 noon. It is ran just like an untimed duel except the GM secretly determines the segment on which the signal is going off. Of course, drawing your gun before the signal goes off usually means you are disqualified, dead, or both, Once the signal “goes off†drawing your weapon is a fair game and normal combat starts.

 

Example: A and B are facing each other in the town square and when the clock strikes 12 noon they draw. The GM secretly decides the clock will strike 12 noon on segment 5 of the second turn.

 

 

The secret to running a good showdown-duel is to realize there is a lot more going on than just someone drawing a gun and shooting.

 

 

Questions, comments, replies, are very welcome.

[Lamrok]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

It sounds a lot like Deadlands Classic to me.

[Herolover]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

Pretty much that is where I stole it from. Really, if you look at a duel in the Hero system it is just a series of presence attacks. You could, if you wanted to, just get rid of Bluff all together, but I feel it adds something.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

Not a bad idea. Another thing to keep in mind is that when both guys are standing there staring each other down, they're both holding their phases. Whoever wants to go first has to make a DEX roll to beat the other guy (assuming the other guy wants to draw his gun when the first guy does).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

Not a bad idea. Another thing to keep in mind is that when both guys are standing there staring each other down' date=' they're both holding their phases. Whoever wants to go first has to make a DEX roll to beat the other guy (assuming the other guy wants to draw his gun when the first guy does).[/quote']

 

I'd probably say 'Fast Draw rolls, if only one person has Fast Draw he wins, otherwise go to DEX rolls'.

 

Since, logically, any gunslinger worthy of the title will have Fast Draw; I'd probably let Lightning Reflexes count as DEX for purposes of deciding the DEX roll for Fast Draw in this circumstance.

[input.jack]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

Not a bad idea. Another thing to keep in mind is that when both guys are standing there staring each other down' date=' they're both holding their phases. Whoever wants to go first has to make a DEX roll to beat the other guy (assuming the other guy wants to draw his gun when the first guy does).[/quote']

 

THATS the key. The competing DEX roll. Both duellists have to make DEX rolls, and clever gunslingers will want to buy a couple of specific levels with DEX rolls that represent the "lightning draw". A gunslinger might also take a penalty, like a -4, to "let the other fella draw first", and still be able to get the first shot. (If both take the penalty, assume that both slap leather fast enough that its unclear who actually drew first).

 

The way we ran it, therer was also a provision for duelling that if you took a penalty to your OCV, you got an equal bonus to your DEX roll. And vice versa. So you could trade speed for accuracy, or accuracy for speed.

[Herolover]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

The way we ran it' date=' therer was also a provision for duelling that if you took a penalty to your OCV, you got an equal bonus to your DEX roll. And vice versa. So you could trade speed for accuracy, or accuracy for speed.[/quote']

 

Consider this idea stolen.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

Consider this idea stolen.

 

Reminiscent of the Spellslinger (d20) showdown ... you basically worry about three stats; Attack Bonus, Defense Bonus, and Initiative; so long as none of them go below zero, you can apportion them however you want.

[input.jack]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

Never played Spellslinger, but if you want to use the idea, feel free to do so!

[fwcain]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

...they're both holding their phases. Whoever wants to go first has to make a DEX roll--

(or Fast Draw skill roll, as per 5th Ed., page 40.)

 

--to beat the other guy (assuming the other guy wants to draw his gun when the first guy does).

 

...if only one person has Fast Draw he wins' date=' otherwise go to DEX rolls'. [/quote']That's just a bit too harsh for my taste. If only one of the combatants has the Fast Draw skill, I'd give him a +3 bonus to his Fast Draw skill roll for this skill contest.

 

Franklin

[BigJackBrass]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

A preference of style rather than a tweaking of the game mechanics, but to me the PRE element is the most important part. A traditional duel - pistols at ten paces - is not so much about facing down your opponent and forcing an error (though there is an element of that, to be sure). The western duel, though, particularly as portrayed in the old "spaghetti" westerns, was as much a psychological contest as anything. In real life, assuming that such things even happened in the manner we think of them, duels were likely a good deal less noble and interesting.

 

Some excellent suggestions in this thread. I may well be pinching some of them, given that my girlfriend has unexpectedly announced that she might try an RPG, as long as it's a wild west one, a bit like the Deadwood telly series.

[st barbara]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

Hell if only one character has a high dex, and it isnt MY character it's a case of "go for some historical accuracy" and snipe the so and so from five hyndred yards with a Sharps with a telescopic sight !

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

I know the 4E Western HERO had a specific approach to this, but it's been so long since I've seen it that I can't remember. Never actually owned the book.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

I'm pretty sure the Western Hero rules said that the guy who makes his Fast Draw roll by the most shoots first. If someone doesn't have Fast Draw, he makes a DEX roll, but he can't beat a successful Fast Draw roll regardless. If everyone fails Fast Draw and DEX rolls, then go by DEX order.

 

I could verify, but I'd have to go all the way to the edge of the room where the bookshelf sits.

[Edsel]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

The way we ran it' date=' therer was also a provision for duelling that if you took a penalty to your OCV, you got an equal bonus to your DEX roll. And vice versa. So you could trade speed for accuracy, or accuracy for speed.[/quote']

That is one of the rules from the Wester Hero book printed in 1991. I have a copy.

 

Here is a summary of the Showdown Rules from the old Western Hero book.

 

A showdown normally occurs when both characters have the option to act, and they must both make rolls to see who will act first. The normally happens when one or both characters are holding an action or when a character has another one covered. In all other situations use the normal Combat Sequence in the Hero Rulesbook.

 

When one or more players try to act at the same time, each character declares his intended action. Characters doing a defensive action (one he can abort to) go first. A character covering his target, and not distracted, goes next. If a character had his target covered but was distracted, he loses the cover and must roll.

 

Any character not performing a defensive action or attacking a covered target must roll. A character's declared actions can modify his DEX or Fast Draw roll. Remember that a character with the Fast Draw skill is assumed to be able to draw and fire as a 1/2 PHA action.

 

When one or both characters are drawing a weapon, their equipment may also modify their roll. Modifiers for equipment if the character already has his weapon drawn.

 

SHOWDOWN MODIFIERS

Action Modifiers

Declare a 1/2 PHA Action . . . . . . . . . . . . 0

Declare two 1/s PHA Actions . . . . . . . . .-3

Declare a Full PHA Action . . . . . . . . . . . -3

Set . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1

Hip Shot . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 per -1 OCV

Weapon Arm/Hand Impaired . . . . . . . . . .-3

Using Weapon with Off Hand . . . . . . . . . -3

Drawing a Weapon Modifiers

Buffalo Rifle, Army Rifle or Carbine. . . . . . -5

Repeating Rifle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -4

Repeating Carbine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -3

Long Barrel Revolver . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .-3

Normal Revolver . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .-2

Fast Draw Revolver . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1

All Bows . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .-6

All Long Melee Weapons . . . . . . . . . . . . -5

All Normal Melee Weapons. . . . . . . . . . . -3

All Short Melee Weapons. . . . . . . . . . . . -1

Any Unfamiliar Weapon . . . . . . . . . . . . . -3

Drawing Hardware Modifiers

Fast Draw Holster . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1

Hipshooting Holster . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1

Spring-sleeve Holster . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+2

 

Set = If the attacker is Set on his target he gets this bonus.

Holster Modifiers only apply if the weapon must be drawn.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

(That's just a bit too harsh for my taste. If only one of the combatants has the Fast Draw skill, I'd give him a +3 bonus to his Fast Draw skill roll for this skill contest.

 

Franklin

 

I'm of the opinion that, if you *don't* have Fast Draw, you just should not be participating in showdowns and deserve to get shot.

[Jomster]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

On a light hearted note: We tried playing the Moricone spaghetti western soundtrack CD at such moments... worked for us!

[MPT]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

There was a set of rules for dueling in 'No Quarter' magazine which, whilst written for D20, could apply. Unfortunately I am at work so do not have access to it.

[Edsel]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

I remember experimenting with several game systems (Boot Hill, Western Hero, etc.) to try and come up with a system in which you could pull some of the stunts that Clint did in the spaghetti westerns. For, instance drawing your gun(s) and shooting six run-of-the-mill guys before they could shoot back.

 

The Aces & Eights: Showdown rules that Kenzer is putting out have a pretty interesting combat system and I like they way they handle duels. Kenzer keeps claiming that they will release a full-blown RPG based upon it but so far it's just the skirmish rules with a minimum of RPG info.

[CourtFool]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

I remember experimenting with several game systems (Boot Hill' date=' Western Hero, etc.) to try and come up with a system in which you could pull some of the stunts that Clint did in the spaghetti westerns. For, instance drawing your gun(s) and shooting six run-of-the-mill guys before they could shoot back.[/quote']

 

Autofire, Usable only against mooks

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

I'm of the opinion that' date=' if you *don't* have Fast Draw, you just should not be participating in showdowns and deserve to get shot. [/quote']

I'm mostly in the same school of thought.

IF the guy with Fast Draw blows his roll, then I'd go for a dex off, but if he makes his FD roll, then he gets to shoot first, IMHO. Even if the other guy went for his gun first. There has to be a good reason fro blowing all those points getting a 17- Fastdraw skill, and a lucky punk with a high dex and no skill to use it with shouldn't be on anywhere near the same footing. He still might win the duel... the fastdrawer could flub his to hit roll, or wimp out on damage, after all.

 

A beter method of applying hipshot and hurry to the equation is probably in good order tho... just changing the Dex order does squat when both sides have held actions

[Edsel]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

Autofire' date=' Usable only against mooks[/quote']

Yep, that'd probably be the simplest solution. But I was young and ignorant back then.

[fwcain]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

I'm of the opinion that' date=' if you [b']don't[/b] have Fast Draw, you just should not be participating in showdowns and deserve to get shot.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Sometimes, the hero doesn't have a choice. Westerns frequently have "The Reluctant Combatant" as one of their archetypes, and he's almost always a hero/good guy/white hat. Here are two quick examples off the top of my head:

• The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
  
• The Big Country
  

(...And for a non-Western example, there's always Back to the Future Part III)

 

Franklin

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

I'm wondering whether this is the right approach. But to explore my ideas, let me posit something entirely different:

 

Imagine a sword-using culture where the duel has been elevated to high importance. There is a ritual involved called "showing the steel"; you can partially draw your sword and then re-sheathe it to back down, but if the tip ever leqaves the scabbard you are committed to fight until a conclusion is reached (blood is drawn, or one of you is incapacitated, or to the death).

 

The reason I thought of this is that the classic western "showdown at high noon" is far more a test of nerve, courage and commitment than of reflexes. Drawing your gun means you will have to live with the consequences, and the first draw will do you little good if you are so nervous that you miss your shot.

 

So it's not enough to be fast on the draw, you also need clarity and focus.

 

reference: the climactic three-way showdown of The Good, the bad and the Ugly.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How to handle Western Hero Duels/Showdowns

 

reference: the climactic three-way showdown of The Good' date=' the bad and the Ugly[/i'].

 

Which also shows precisely how to handle showdowns if you don't have Fast Draw ... you cheat.