Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

[Zed-F]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

In an Animated Dark Champions game, it's entirely appropriate for basic agents not to be much more skilled than normal guys on the street. The main difference between basic agents and normal guys on the street in such a game is that they have weapons and are willing to use them, whereas the normals generally do not and are not. Look at the Joker's crew in the first Batman movie. Did they look all that tough to you? They were just a bunch of thugs. Dex 11/SPD 2 is entirely appropriate for them.

 

Now, if we're talking about a 4-colour game featuring experienced, iconic characters, things are different. In such a circumstance, you might well want to have your agent fodder be considerably tougher than normal humans, so that your heroes are demonstrated to be that much more studly when they mow through these tougher foes just as easily.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

The important thing for me is not to end up with two mechanically identical characters and then charge one significantly more just because of his SFX.

 

Well stated, and bears repeating. To me, this is key to the issue.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

To answer the question what side am I on, in more detail, by issue, I am going to suffer from Hubis and quote myself

 

 

Lets untangle some of this mess, there are actualy two or three issues here, some related some not, but everything is getting muddy

 

I. Characteristic inflation: Does it exist, probably, could the game work at a lower level, definatly but it will change the feel so that supers don't seem as "super" creating a sub genre of "Normals with Powers" not a bad thing in any manner of thinking

 

I pretty much state my opinion here, I think of the games bwDEmon and Checkmate are describing is it's own equaly valid subgenre, I do not feel that the stat inflation is a big deal, but it can become one if you get an arms race mentality. A superhuman Dex can just mean that you go from an 8 to a 28 with no practice, training etc...

 

 

II. What level acuratly covers the source material

A. Dependent part on what source material is used

1. Low end gritty (Punisher's current series, very little Batman, etc)

2. Extremly powerful (LOSH in the Silver Age)

3. Somewhere in between (95% of comics out there fall in between the above spectrem)

B. Dependent on personal opinon of translated power

 

I honestly don't think that the current 350 points & 23/5 spectrum is high enough to support what I read in comics, but for balance purposes it is a good scale to play at, it is one of the many genre bits I do not think carry over well

 

 

III. Fairness

A. is it fair to penalise one archtype over another based on special effect

1. Are some archtypes actualy at a disadvantage

2. Are there balancing factors

3. Is it the Players fault for choosing a inferior archtype or the GM's for insisting on it

B. How does limiting appropriate F/X to certain archtypes modify this

 

As a GM we are responsible to be fair to our players, if we are charging one player more points than another for the same thing then we are being unfair. No specific Archtype should be picked out for this kind of treatment.

 

 

IV. Control, how much is in the players hands, how much is in the GM's

 

 

A GM is responsible to his players, while the GM does invest more time in the world, he should be doing it for theenjoyment of his players. Players should have 95% control over things dealing with there characters, GM's should have 95% over the other stuff

 

GM's and Players should talk in depth about what hey want there character to be like

 

V. Special effects

A. Limitations on special effects (Fire can only burn to Xd6)

1. Should "Workarounds" be allowed? ("Intense Training" +8 dex, -0 lim "Skill based")

2. Should a GM only allow one way for any effect to be built or multiple valid constructs

a. makes it easier for adjustment powers

b. limits the versitility of the system

 

 

Limitations on special effects should be enforced to make sure the world works, however workarounds should be used to ensure no certain special effect is at a disadvantage. Gm's should approve all power builds, but with an eye for the player

[OddHat]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

In an Animated Dark Champions game, it's entirely appropriate for basic agents not to be much more skilled than normal guys on the street. The main difference between basic agents and normal guys on the street in such a game is that they have weapons and are willing to use them, whereas the normals generally do not and are not. Look at the Joker's crew in the first Batman movie. Did they look all that tough to you? They were just a bunch of thugs. Dex 11/SPD 2 is entirely appropriate for them.

 

Recently, watching the Venture Bros., I've really wanted to have my players come accross a Henchman's Booth at a career fair.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Nah, not if you use agents that scale appropriately to him. Against characters built to that power level, if you want a mook mop-up you throw basic agents with DEX 11 / SPD 2 at him. He can fight those all day and come out on top.

***************************************************************************

Now, if we're talking about a 4-colour game featuring experienced, iconic characters, things are different. In such a circumstance, you might well want to have your agent fodder be considerably tougher than normal humans, so that your heroes are demonstrated to be that much more studly when they mow through these tougher foes just as easily.

 

This is fine if all the characters are similarly restricted. However, to take one character and say "Everyone else can mop the floor with highly trained agents or special forces at DEX 14/SPD 3, equipped with high tech gear (like VIPER agents), but because of his SFX, YOUR character must have a problem with more than one or two such agents" effectively forces that SFX to play the sidekick role. He's playing a grim & gritty low powered character in a four colour world of icons, and he's just as out of place as Batgod in a street level game.

[Zed-F]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I have to agree that I find the idea of forcing some characters to pay double for certain things based on their backstories or archetypes to be a non-starter. I have no problem with an NCM game, especially for Dark Champs, Animated Dark Champs, or the like. I'd be willing to consider a 4-colour NCM game, if we weren't looking to emulate characters that were supposed to be exceptionally powerful. In such a case, though, I would not make exceptions. Everyone gets NCM, for all stats, period. If you want a power that boosts your characteristics past NCM, I may allow it if it will fit the feel of the game... but if it doesn't fit the feel of the game, or isn't well-justified, I simply won't allow it. Forcing someone to pay extra CP because they haven't provided a good rationale doesn't strike me as the best way to say 'no' -- when you can just say no.

 

As a side bonus, it would give you a very clear idea of just where everyone would stand once depowered, and that might become an important theme of the game.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

You do realize he could have done all of this stuff with NCM right? As a matter of fact, every bounce requires a CSL.

 

I don't dispute the fact they can do things a human can't, I've even said this. You CAN simulate this staying within the NCM.

 

The real point however, is that people DO set limts. People DO say training won't let you achive a 60 STR without limitations, but DEX can go up to 1000 and still be a normal human. People say you can't teach your self to shoot lasers out of your eyes UNLESS you take a specific SFX for your powers. Why are all these acceptable, but limiting DEX and SPD isn't? Talk about a double standard. And you say I'm not being fair? You all have said a mutant Energy Projector or Brick is special because humans can't achieve this, but the superhuman Martial Artist isn't really special because anyone can train hard enough to get that much DEX. Sounds like D&D 3ed right Hugh? You need to be a certain "class" to get a 60 STR or lasers out of your eyes.

 

Who the heck says that anyone can train hard enough? The vast vast vast vast majority of people could train decades and not come close to what Batman or Daredevil or Lady Shiva or Shang Chi or Captain America can do. I could train 20 hours a day for 20 years starting from age 4 and I wouldn't be able to beat the 12th scrub on an NBA team let alone Jordan.

 

Since you plainly accept that comic book characters can do things that normal humans can't, I don't see why you can't accept Dex/Spd higher than 20/4.

 

IRL, someone with a 20 Str would be a 250-300 pound steroid freak. Yet Batman, based on what he's actually done in comics, has at least that level of Str and a normal athletic build while having an agility better than the best Olympic gymnast who has ever lived. I can't see how you can suspend disbelief enough to accept Batman, but you can't for higher than 20 Dex.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Nah, not if you use agents that scale appropriately to him. Against characters built to that power level, if you want a mook mop-up you throw basic agents with DEX 11 / SPD 2 at him. He can fight those all day and come out on top.

 

Highly trained agents or special forces at DEX 14/SPD 3, he'd have a problem with if they came in sufficient numbers, but then Batman built at this level is Batman as he appears in his own books, not Batgod, and should consider special forces to be a credible threat.

 

Moreover, I'd agree that this particular writeup of Batman is really short on skill levels.

 

 

 

Right. This writeup for Batman isn't for a JLA 4-colour version ala Batgod. It's for the Animated Dark Champions version of him, and even then you could reasonably say it's for an inexperienced version of him at the beginning of his career. After all we don't see any points spent on vehicles or bases or anything, and his skill levels are pretty low.

 

I would certainly not call this Batman at full power. But I could see using this writeup as a basis for a batclone in a Dark Champs or Animated Dark Champs game, and I could see how it could be tweaked and powered up with 100 extra points for a lot of additional levels and so forth so that it could 'fit' in a more high-powered game. But if I really wanted to build a 4-colour Batgod, I wouldn't use this writeup as a starting point.

 

11/2 agents might represent normal thugs, but I refuse to accept that Shield, Hydra, or AIM agents are that wimpy. And the least comic book martial artist hero can handle 4 or more of them with no problems.

[Checkmate]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

And back around we go.

It doesn't matter whether the number is a 32 DEX' date=' an 82 DEX or a 12 DEX. The fact is that Cap (and many other "trained non-super humans") can, in the comics, compete successfully with characters who DO have superhuman agility. Regardless of where you set the bar for "superhuman agility", Cap demonstrates all the traits of this superhuman agility. There is no reason to charge him more points to get there than you would charge Spider Man or Quicksilver.[/quote']

And I've shown you an example where it costs a whopping 3 points extra. When the stats are so scaled down, you really aren't paying that much extra.

The bottom line is that the comics provide a huge repository of examples of "High Training and Combat Experience" being a special effect of Superhuman DEX and SPD.

Which can be accurately simulated with CSL's and the NCM.

Show me in the genre where this occurs. Cap' date=' Bats and numerous other characters exist as examples where training enables a non-super to achieve the same DEX and SPD levels as a superhuman.[/quote']

So you only allow characters that with SFX that have been seen in comics? So much for originality, for the rest, see below.

To split hairs' date=' I'm saying there is [b']genre support[/b] for applying such a restriction to STR, and that this same support does not exist for applying such a restriction to DEX.

This is in your mind alone. You see STR is much more quantifiable than DEX, that's the ONLY difference. You agree with limiting STR and hide behind "It's in the comics", but until you can PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that the reason Cap can hit Spider-man is because of superhuman like DEX and NOT skill levels, all you're doing is saying that you're view of comics is better, or more accurate than mine.

 

Frankly' date=' I've never had a player present me with a character who shoots laser beams from his eyes, juggles cement trucks or flies unaided and say "he's highly trained". I have seen numerous examples of characters in the source material who have "superhuman" levels of DEX, SPD, PRE, INT and EGO who are, in the source material, not considered "superhuman" as a consequence.[/quote']

And how did you determine they had "Super human" DEX? Because they can fight people with super human DEX? Skill levels will allow the same thing. How did you determine what was DEX and what was skill levels?

As a consequence' date=' in a game that purports to emulate that source material (four colour comics), players logically and reasonably expect to be able to create characters who have superhuman levels of these attributes, and yet are not themselves "superhuman". This "super-training" (or "super-intelligence", or "super-ego", or "super-charisma") is a trope of the genre.[/quote']

and all of this can be boiled down to one sentence "My interuptation of the source material is 'more correct' than yours."

What's wrong with "only for combat applications"?

Actually I should be asking you this question since this is exactly what you are fighting against. This is the very definition of a CSL.

 

 

 

You said:

 

That sounds very similar to your statement that "most of them are scientists, so they'll have an 8 DEX", so I intuit "scientists have an 8 DEX and don't study martial arts".

 

The EP would, by defnition, not be as good as someone who has dedicated their entire life to martial arts - the EP would spend points on other powers not possessed by the martial artist, so he wouldn't have as many points to sink into MA. He doesn't need to pay double for martial arts, or be restricted in how much he can buy, in order to not be as good as the dedicated martial artist.

 

Although, realistically, what prevents the concept of a character who HAS dedicated his life to martial arts being in an accident which empowers him with energy projection powers? [black Canary's sonic scream, anyone?]

HAHAHAHAHA. and what if in your game world China got nuclear weapons and killed all the normal humans in your world. Would Batman still have a cape?

 

Or more to the point: I'll say again I'm DONE answering these types of questions until you provide all the information I've asked for. It's too easy for you to come up with something, I give an answer, then, since I don't have a basis to work off, you can change things to suite your argument. I'm done playing that game, so from now on, you want an answer to these questions, provide the information so things can stay consistant and not change to better your arguments.

 

It must be very interesting for a brand new player in your group...

It is. I have the exact same arguments with people that have played Hero before. Then I just say "Try it, if you don't like it quit". No one has quit because they didn't like it.

 

 

 

I would suggest that issue is taken when the result is either that an ability common in the source material cannot reasonably be emulated (the simulation then fails - it's not four colour any more)' date=' or when the cost of such emulation is set considerably higher than it would be for other characters to achieve the same results (game balance then fails - if one character type must spend more points for the same effect, he has less points for other effects, so this is not materially different than reducing the base points available to that character type.)[/quote']And NEITHER of these things have happened. No one has to spend an rediculous amount of points to emulate this.

So does this depend on backstory or archetype? It's not hard to change Kyle from an artist to a judo instructor who won an Olympic gold medal in the sport' date=' or just swap him over to being Ted Grant, World Heavyweight Champion. Would making those characters into Green Lanterns force them to pay double for their fighting skills? [/quote']

Again I need backstory and conception for all characters in the group, all players expectations. THIS is what determines what costs what, or if a particular build is possible.

 

If not' date=' then how many points I really have to work with depends as much or more on my ability to weave a backstory justifying my seemingly disparate power suite as on the point cost of my abilities. A good Persuasion roll effectively gets me more points since I don't pay double for a suite of abilities that a player with a less elaborate back story would pay. That just means the good storyteller gets an up front xp bonus, something that does not, in my eyes, equate to balance any better than a random roll for character points available.[/quote']And your ability to slide this desperate attempt past a GM looking for just this sort of thing.

[Zed-F]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

11/2 agents might represent normal thugs' date=' but I refuse to accept that Shield, Hydra, or AIM agents are that wimpy. And the least comic book martial artist hero can handle 4 or more of them with no problems.[/quote']

 

I don't recall that Dark Champs Bats generally tends to fight those sorts of foes in his own books in Gotham, though. JLA Batgod might be able to mow through them easily, but then he's built on a lot more than 250 points.

 

It's just a matter of what tone of game you're aiming for. The statement that 'the least comic book MA can handle 4 or more Shield/Hydra/AIM agents with no problems' is disingenuous. That might hold true for 4-colour games but it does not hold across the full spectrum of comic source material.

 

EDIT: I'll also point out that 11/2 is a normal soldier, and ask, is it necessarily the case that all agents are so much better-trained than the regular armed forces? Are all agents from all potential agencies trained as much as special forces personnel are? 'Cause that's an awful lot of training, and realistically, not all agencies may be willing to afford it. Or if they are, they may not be able to afford it for all their agents, just as the army doesn't send everyone off for special forces training.

[OddHat]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

IRL, someone with a 20 Str would be a 250-300 pound steroid freak.

 

Hey! I'm dieting here!

 

 

And, sadly, have nowhere near a 20 STR. And, never used steroids. Still, some posts have to be made.

 

OK, so that wasn't one of them.

 

Sigh.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

And I've shown you an example where it costs a whopping 3 points extra. When the stats are so scaled down' date=' you really aren't paying that much extra.[/quote']

 

If I recall that example correctly, it did not result in the character matching a "super dextrous" character in OCV (with all possible attacks), DCV and timing of actions. Yes, it only costs an extra three points to fall well short of the concept - I don't consider that a strong show of support for the approach in question.

 

As I recall, you established the top end of DEX at about 27 (only 7 above the top end of a normal human - so it's only possible to be about 3 times as dextrous as the top end normal person in your game, but admittedly that's still almost 16X Joe Average at 8).

 

So, assuming the concept allows, the Trained Normal has either:

 

- a 20 DEX, 2 levels with DCV (10 points), +2 OCV (10 points) and +7 Fast draw (7), total cost 27. He has everything the super agile character has except better DEX rolls.

 

- a 27 DEX, with the last 7 points costing 35 points (42, less 7 that reduce the cost of his SPD), which gives him the DEX rolls as well

 

Meanwhile the Super Agile character has paid 14 points (21 less 7 that reduce the cost of his SPD) for his SuperDex, and has between 13 and 21 points left over to buy anything else he may want. Call it 18 (assume Trained Normal uses the skill level approach, and also buys +1 with all DEX based skills for 5 points).

 

With 18 points, our super dextrous character can buy 6 skill levels with martial arts (your theoretical solution for Trained Normal), or 2 Combat Skill Levels and +2 Fast Draw.

 

You may never have two characters with such similar schticks in the same game, but it's always clear that Trained Human as a backstory will always come out inferior to a backstory that evades the NCM.

 

So you only allow characters that with SFX that have been seen in comics? So much for originality' date=' for the rest, see below.[/quote']

 

No, I DEFINITELY allow characters who mirror common comic book SFX. From there, we can certainly get some more creative characters.

 

[ASIDE] When I see a GM impose his vision on a player's character, I always stop to wonder how Marvel Comics would have developed if Stan Lee had to run his characters through that GM. "A spider sense, Stan? Since when do SPIDERS have special senses. Maybe I'll let you have that if you can come up with a better justification for it - MAYBE - but NO WAY is it a "spider power" in your EC. Now let's move on to these web shooters. The kid's half way through high school. How does he have the skills to build a device like that? You're just trying to shave some points with an IIF, you point whore. You want the webs, stick to the concept and buy them as natural spider powers!" [/ASIDE]

 

This is in your mind alone. You see STR is much more quantifiable than DEX' date=' that's the ONLY difference. You agree with limiting STR and hide behind "It's in the comics", but until you can PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that the reason Cap can hit Spider-man is because of superhuman like DEX and NOT skill levels, all you're doing is saying that you're view of comics is better, or more accurate than mine.[/quote']

 

DEX is not an SFX. DEX is a mechanic used to simulate a wide variety of SFX. This could include being super-fast, being precognitive and reacting to actions that haven't even been taken yet, or being a highly trained and skilled combatant across the board.

 

Similarly, not all energy blasts are lightning bolts, and not all lightning bolts are energy blasts.

 

We could just as easily argue that Spider Man has a 5 DEX and a swack of levels, Fast Draw, etc. The RESULT is the same. The MECHANICS are different. To achieve the SIMULATION objective, I agree it makes no difference whether they use levels or characteristics.

 

However, there is a second objective of at least equal importance, at least in my eyes. That is BALANCE between characters. To achieve balance, each character has the same number of points to spend (be it 250, 350 or some other number). They are each permitted to construct their abilities efficiently using the mechanics. But, in your game, some characters are more equal than others, and are permitted to purchase their abilities in a point-effective manner. Others are restricted to more costly means of achieving the same effects. You might just as well assign characters higher or lower base points depending on their archetype - it will be just as balanced and just as fair.

 

Of course, these's considerably more to the balance equation, but it starts with applying the same mechanics to all characters [point based system] or, alternatively, giving each type of character different advantages and drawbacks [class-based system].

 

and all of this can be boiled down to one sentence "My interuptation of the source material is 'more correct' than yours."

 

The source material provides SFX without mechanics. It does not provide a game where all characters are constructed on the same base points, and expected to balance out. It's pretty clear that Daredevil and the Silver Surfer are not equals. They are constructed on different point levels, play under different ground rules and operate in different campaigns.

 

In a game, however, play balance is important. Play balance says to me that Captain America, SpiderMan and Iron Man should be balanced one against the other if they are to work together as player characters. That balance fails if one of them must pay a greater cost than the others to achieve the same result.

 

Actually I should be asking you this question since this is exactly what you are fighting against. This is the very definition of a CSL.

 

If a skill level is simply limited DEX, why are you averse to allowing a character to purchase limited DEX instead of skill levels? Once more with feeling: if the functional result is the same, the cost need not, and should not, be different!

 

I suspect if you work the cost of limited DEX into skill levels, you'll find it far more balanced between skill levels and DEX purchased at 5 points per +1 than with DEX purchased at 2 points per +1. Skill levels are very well balanced in a game where NCM applies to everyone.

 

It is. I have the exact same arguments with people that have played Hero before. Then I just say "Try it' date=' if you don't like it quit". No one has quit because they didn't like it.[/quote']

 

Solely based on your treatment of trained humans, or based on your shift of the baseline towards more normal human stats? The reduction of stat inflation is not, IMO, a concern. For many archetypes, your system would work just fine. But you are taking certain archetypes and forcing them to either move away from the player's conception, or adjust that conception to fit your restrictions.

 

You say you can't answer my "hypothetical character" questions without having full details of every other character in the game world. How can I tell you what facets of your game have resulted in players never joining, changing their character type to better conform with with your model or simply quitting.

 

Again I need backstory and conception for all characters in the group' date=' all players expectations. THIS is what determines what costs what, or if a particular build is possible. [/quote']

 

That pretty much answers the question. If the player phrases it in a manner which you find persuasive, and no one else persuades you otherwise, the build is OK. If not, they either must pay extra points, or they can't build the character they envision at all.

 

And your ability to slide this desperate attempt past a GM looking for just this sort of thing.

 

Hmmm...if "just this sort of thing" is "the ability to play the character I envision, rather than the character as you envision it", then I suppose that's true. However, the GM's I have gamed with are generally looking to run a game where players play the characters they envision within a game world as the GM envisions it (or possibly as he envisions, with modifications due to the players' input).

 

This is not to say there are no limitations. If, in the Super universe, magic does not exist, magic can't be a viable SFX. But that should be recognized as a departure from the traditional four colour environment, where magic does exist. And I'd much rather the GM said "No. In this game, magic does not exist." than "In my game, it's hard for natives of this dimension to learn magic. If your powers have the SFX "Magic" you have to pay double for them."

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I find it odd how one side will not comment on why it is appropriate for a normal to have to spend more points on a certain F/x than another. They talk about how the comic characters CAN simulate it with skill levels, they are right.

 

My question is why should they have to pay more points than there mutant partner who has agility based power

 

Why should they be penalised because of there origin? Why should they have to reduce there points by 1 single point for a natural origin, why in a system based on points should any origin be penalised. Checkmate admits that they have to pay an extra three points, that is an entire skill. so now mutant MA guy has an extra skill, or a extra CSL, or a pair of IR Goddles. The argument of "At this level it is only a couple of points" is false, it is unfair if it is one point, it is unfair if it is 100 points. As a player I would honestly be offended by being told that my background requires me to spend more points than to be equaly capable, the fact that some people here can't understand why this is a problem amazes me...or maybe that is why they are avoiding on comenting on it...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I find it odd how one side will not comment on why it is appropriate for a normal to have to spend more points on a certain F/x than another. They talk about how the comic characters CAN simulate it with skill levels, they are right.

 

My question is why should they have to pay more points than there mutant partner who has agility based power

 

Why should they be penalised because of there origin? Why should they have to reduce there points by 1 single point for a natural origin, why in a system based on points should any origin be penalised. Checkmate admits that they have to pay an extra three points, that is an entire skill. so now mutant MA guy has an extra skill, or a extra CSL, or a pair of IR Goddles. The argument of "At this level it is only a couple of points" is false, it is unfair if it is one point, it is unfair if it is 100 points. As a player I would honestly be offended by being told that my background requires me to spend more points than to be equaly capable, the fact that some people here can't understand why this is a problem amazes me...or maybe that is why they are avoiding on comenting on it...

 

 

Agreed. Try telling players they must pay 5 points to be a Mutant. You don't get anything for your 5 points other than the privilege of being a Mutant, but you can't have your backstory involve being a Mutant unless you shell out the 5 points. At best, I expect your game will have no Mutants (which may be what you wanted in the first place ).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Oh, to have something wise and insightful to say on this, the 300th post to this thread!

[OddHat]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Agreed. Try telling players they must pay 5 points to be a Mutant. You don't get anything for your 5 points other than the privilege of being a Mutant' date=' but you can't have your backstory involve being a Mutant unless you shell out the 5 points. At best, I expect your game will have no Mutants (which may be what you wanted in the first place ).[/quote']

 

The old GURPS Supers did exactly that with the Unusual Background. 10-50 or more points to have an unusual origin for the campaign (I never used that, and I think it may have later been dropped). HERO has that as an option with the Advanced Tech perk, though arguably that's just a compromise charge for campaigns where equipment doesn't cost points.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I don't recall that Dark Champs Bats generally tends to fight those sorts of foes in his own books in Gotham, though. JLA Batgod might be able to mow through them easily, but then he's built on a lot more than 250 points.

 

It's just a matter of what tone of game you're aiming for. The statement that 'the least comic book MA can handle 4 or more Shield/Hydra/AIM agents with no problems' is disingenuous. That might hold true for 4-colour games but it does not hold across the full spectrum of comic source material.

 

EDIT: I'll also point out that 11/2 is a normal soldier, and ask, is it necessarily the case that all agents are so much better-trained than the regular armed forces? Are all agents from all potential agencies trained as much as special forces personnel are? 'Cause that's an awful lot of training, and realistically, not all agencies may be willing to afford it. Or if they are, they may not be able to afford it for all their agents, just as the army doesn't send everyone off for special forces training.

 

 

From my recollection at least in the Marvel Universe, the least costumed martial artist was Mockingbird, and she generally didn't have any problems with cannon fodder.

 

As far as training, I don't know about Hydra and Aim, but Shield agents are generally the creme de la creme of agents, and every one of them is probably equal to a special forces soldier. And based on what I've read of West Coast Avengers, IMO Mockingbird could easily clobber 4 or more of them.

[Mentor]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I think much of the definitive problem is the idea of "normal" or "real people" being mistaken for the guy next door as opposed to "real" or "normal" people in drama and literature. gary has made a good point with Batman.

 

The characters played in the movies by Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Vin Diesel, in the movies or Tarzan, Doc Savage, Honor Harrington, or James Bond in literature are humans with environmental or training edges. No way can I be convinced that Tarzan or the iconic Bruce Lee could be built with 20STR or 20 DEX and 3-4 SPD. Their marked superiority to elite troops and even "boss" level baddies makes it hard for me to accept that the only choices are "reality" or "mutant".

[Checkmate]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I find it odd how one side will not comment on why it is appropriate for a normal to have to spend more points on a certain F/X than another. They talk about how the comic characters CAN simulate it with skill levels, they are right.

 

My question is why should they have to pay more points than there mutant partner who has agility based power

 

I have REPEATEDLY answered this question: Because it is their conception and that's what I say. You want the advantages for balance? If someone has a Drain Mutant Power power, the normal human doesn't get drained. If they go into a zone where no powers work, the normal human isn't effected.

 

I have also stated with the levels I play at, the extra cost is next to nill (and for that example Hugh, how could I change theconcept you never came up with one).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I have REPEATEDLY answered this question: Because it is their conception and that's what I say. You want the advantages for balance? If someone has a Drain Mutant Power power' date=' the normal human doesn't get drained. If they go into a zone where no powers work, the normal human isn't effected.[/quote']

 

If someone has a power that doesn't work on superpowered people, the normal human is affected. Should we charge extra for fire powers because Drain Water Powers doesn't affect those?

 

In my opinion, your answer reinforces JMOz' point. The only reason that "trained normals" pay more points is that YOU have decided that characters of that conception will pay extra points. It's no different than deciding that being a mutant costs 5 points, or that all magic-based powers cost double.

 

I have also stated with the levels I play at' date=' the extra cost is next to nill (and for that example Hugh, how could I change theconcept you never came up with one).[/quote']

 

You have stated it. Your examples have fallen far from proving it.

 

The example to which I refer was my example character who was a highly skilled, highly trained combatant who could match a superhumanly fast combatant in all respects in combat. You continually provided point disparity examples using levels in martial arts, when such a character should be equally accomplished in both HTH and ranged combat, and with combat maneuvers whether or not they are martial in nature. IOW, you provided a build which carried a point cost only marginally greater to be far less accomplished.

 

As to the "change your concept" approach, you can either be a trained non-super and pay extra points, or change your concept from a trained non-super to some other SFX to be permitted to pay the same points as any other character to achieve the same results.

[David Johnston]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Agreed. Try telling players they must pay 5 points to be a Mutant.

 

That analogy would only be appropriate if the GMs in question charged every training based character extra points. They don't. A more accurate analogy would be "Try telling players that they must pay 5 points if they want to be a mutant who uses guns".

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

You want the advantages for balance?

 

An advantage, not is disads or play, but in creation - what can this character buy that other characters cannot buy, or must pay a extra premium for. If there is nothing than you are biasing character choices by making that one character concept weaker than others. Period.

 

It is no different than "everyone can purchase AP, except energy projectors - energy can't cut armor down, so it costs energy projectors +1 for Armor Piercing"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

That analogy would only be appropriate if the GMs in question charged every training based character extra points. They don't. A more accurate analogy would be "Try telling players that they must pay 5 points if they want to be a mutant who uses guns".

 

True - a normal human with no special abilities (what a great superhero let's say he has a 20 EGO and a suite of mentalist powers, but has normal human characteristics otherwise, so he's a normal human with mental powers) pays no extra cost.

 

How about "all characters who want magical powers must either be elves or pay double for all their magic powers, because elves are superior at magic"? I haven't ruled that having magical SFX requires your character to be an elf, but I've made fairly certain no one will want to play a non-elf magical character or, phrased alternatively, I have placed any non-elf magic using character at a disadvantage.

[OddHat]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I think much of the definitive problem is the idea of "normal" or "real people" being mistaken for the guy next door as opposed to "real" or "normal" people in drama and literature. gary has made a good point with Batman.

 

The characters played in the movies by Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Vin Diesel, in the movies or Tarzan, Doc Savage, Honor Harrington, or James Bond in literature are humans with environmental or training edges. No way can I be convinced that Tarzan or the iconic Bruce Lee could be built with 20STR or 20 DEX and 3-4 SPD. Their marked superiority to elite troops and even "boss" level baddies makes it hard for me to accept that the only choices are "reality" or "mutant".

 

Very much so. Cinematic Normal is not the same as Real World Normal.

 

And honestly, we tend to underestimate Real World Normal as well. There are a few men on record who can qualify for a 23-24 STR in HERO terms just looking at their Deadlifts, and some of the old time strong men who never deadlifted might qualify for more based on what we know they did manage. While you can represent them with environmental lifting modifiers and the Hoist skill, it's mechanically simpler just to give them a STR 20+ and be done with it.

 

However, always, your campaign, your rules. I may be representing cinematic reality, but that's no reason why another GM shouldn't concentrate on Real World plus _____.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

That analogy would only be appropriate if the GMs in question charged every training based character extra points. They don't. A more accurate analogy would be "Try telling players that they must pay 5 points if they want to be a mutant who uses guns".

 

Yeah, and Cable's player decided that if he had to pay those 5 extra points, he was really going to use those guns.