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OzMike

Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Okay, I'm dropping everything from the argument but cost and "fairness", since that seems to be the only valid argument left.

 

Let's talk about fairness for a minute shall we? What you have all ignored in my last post is that allowing a trained human to go past NCM effectively ruins the whole world for everyone else. So you're asking me if it's fair for one player with a concept that got EVERYTHING he wanted in that concept, and the character plays exactly the way the player wanted, you're asking me if it's fair to make him pay extra to make sure my game world stays consistant and enjoyable for every other player? Hmm, yep I guess you'll have to call me unfair.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

The truth is, if a player just doesn't show up for a session or gets a solo session his character won't be balanced. And since combat skill levels evidently suck, any character who takes them automatically won't be balanced. And lets not even talk about that guy who switches characters every month. But it is every player's inalienable right to have his character suck every bit as much as he wants it to. Who am I to deny them this freedom?

 

(However it's worth remembering that in my games adjustment powers tended to be "against special effect" and "training" wasn't an available special effect to be drained. And even the exceptions to that rule never affected skill levels. If you got a dozen combat skill levels, you'd be kicking keister and naming names as long you could stand.)

 

 

Thus you have made a balancing effort to compensate for the extra points spent, that is fine, Depending on how often you use adjustment powers, especialy based on origin instead of F/X (How often do you see drain alien powers, Drain Mutant Powers, Drain Magical Powers, note these are all origins not F/Xs)

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Okay, I'm dropping everything from the argument but cost and "fairness", since that seems to be the only valid argument left.

 

Let's talk about fairness for a minute shall we? What you have all ignored in my last post is that allowing a trained human to go past NCM effectively ruins the whole world for everyone else. So you're asking me if it's fair for one player with a concept that got EVERYTHING he wanted in that concept, and the character plays exactly the way the player wanted, you're asking me if it's fair to make him pay extra to make sure my game world stays consistant and enjoyable for every other player? Hmm, yep I guess you'll have to call me unfair.

 

So to summorise (sp)

 

A) you admit that normal guy has to spend more points in your game to be as competent as mutant guy?

 

B) You think that is fair because it does not interfere with the way you set up your world (Which btw contradicts your statement on lets keep this about being fair and cost, you have brought in your views on how a world should be)

 

Let me see if I can make you see this another way, on a conceptual level:

 

(Don't answer based on your system)Should an equal amount of points spent give a character an equal amount of abilities, regardless of origin? Yes or No

 

Does your system do this? You have already answered this with a no it does not

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Probably' date=' but depending on the player maybe not (He might amazingly never loose it). But even if he did have to take foci he would be appropriatetly compenasated for the loss of points, in other words while because of the concept he looses something he does gain something else (More points to spend). The problem I have been having is that the character is loosing something and not getting compensated for it based on the concept.[/quote']

 

But according to the way things have been discussed it seems that its not an issue in that campaign. Plus the GM has stated (I think) that normals are his favourite character archetype, and in my experience having the GM onside goes a loooong way;)

 

And I may have missed it but if this NCM thing is a consistent thing across the whole campaign for 'norms', what's the issue? These numbers on the page can be fiddled with by talented makers to make a character who can really mix it with the tough lads, or you can keep it simple.

 

Plus a good GM will cater for all character types and power levels. To use some example characters mentioned earlier if Batman and the Justice League were fighting Doc Destroyer and his minions (sure, a powered up version of the Doc I reckon), Supes might go straight for Doc, but some other equally dangerous opponent that Supes couldn't fight would be taken by Bats.... lets say someone Supes couldn't fight like... say... Krytonite Katana Ninja Guy. Bats would get creamed by Doc, but his player would be satisfied because if he doesn't do his job and take out Krytonite Katana Ninja Guy, then Supes is taken out and both Supes and Bats get wasted.

 

And then Bats could take the Katana "just in case" someone gets too big for their big blue britches:eg:

 

Wow - drifted off my own thread:)

 

ummm...

 

Plus I must say having played a Martial Artist with NCM surrounded by supers it was mighty satisfying to always hold my own. I couldn't fly, but I had 50 pts of Martial Arts and 6 levels.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

But according to the way things have been discussed it seems that its not an issue in that campaign. Plus the GM has stated (I think) that normals are his favourite character archetype, and in my experience having the GM onside goes a loooong way;)

 

And I may have missed it but if this NCM thing is a consistent thing across the whole campaign for 'norms', what's the issue? These numbers on the page can be fiddled with by talented makers to make a character who can really mix it with the tough lads, or you can keep it simple.

 

Plus a good GM will cater for all character types and power levels. To use some example characters mentioned earlier if Batman and the Justice League were fighting Doc Destroyer and his minions (sure, a powered up version of the Doc I reckon), Supes might go straight for Doc, but some other equally dangerous opponent that Supes couldn't fight would be taken by Bats.... lets say someone Supes couldn't fight like... say... Krytonite Katana Ninja Guy. Bats would get creamed by Doc, but his player would be satisfied because if he doesn't do his job and take out Krytonite Katana Ninja Guy, then Supes is taken out and both Supes and Bats get wasted.

 

And then Bats could take the Katana "just in case" someone gets too big for their big blue britches:eg:

 

Wow - drifted off my own thread:)

 

ummm...

 

Plus I must say having played a Martial Artist with NCM surrounded by supers it was mighty satisfying to always hold my own. I couldn't fly, but I had 50 pts of Martial Arts and 6 levels.

 

 

The issue is basicaly this: Limiting by origin, basicaly saying if you want to play this type of character then you will be penalised for it. Yes it does cover all character types, however do to the flow of the conversation it has concentrated on two types(Skilled norms vs Mutants), but it is broader than that. Basicaly the question is Should a character who's power is based around characteristics be the only ones who get to use the amazing points savings of characteristics (And yes almost all primary characteristics are a bargain).

 

One solution already mentioned a number of times is to let the skilled normal buy a characteristic power called "Intense Training", maybe with a required lim or two. Basicaly it is about ensuring the character who has a reason to have the higher abilities does not have to pay an unfair amount.

 

As to it being the GM's favorite character type, in some ways that can actualy hurt (A few years ago I had a PA character, the GM's favorite type, anytime I did something different from the way he would have he had a major problem with it, finaly I droped the PA and made an archer), not saying checkmate is doing it, but it does illustrate a point

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Thank you for proving my point for me. What you've just proved is it is A LOT more cost effective and you get TONS more benefit from STR. So it is EXACTLY the same thing as what I'm doing. Someone who is a trained normal will get TONS of benefit from 60 STR than with DC's to martial arts. If you deny a trained human to take a 60 STR' date=' you are making them pay more. And let's not forget that I got Hugh's character conception where Normal Guy was made with LESS points than the mutant counterpart, does that all of a sudden make my way better?[/quote']Many, probably most, character concepts preclude a 60 STR even if it is hypothetically more efficient (and I disagree it is. It provides more abilities, but it costs more). I happen to run a high SPD, high DEX character. It is emphatically not in her concept to be able to lift tanks and yank bank vaults off their hinges. A 60 STR would also give her too high a STUN and REC too; plus her defenses would be too high by default. In other words, I can't build my character to her concept (fast, agile, and relatively frail) if I have to buy the "more efficient" build.

 

Now I'm curious, is it ONLY DEX you feel should be without limits? I mean would you allow a trained human to have a 50 CON? What about a 50 PD/ED? Would you allow them to have a 12 SPD and for the concept say, they were just a really good Green Beret that's why they have a 50 CON, 50 PD/ED and a 12 SPD? Is DEX unlimited? I mean could I say that I was an olympic gymnist that's why I have a 60 DEX? If I can't be a trained human with a 60 DEX that means you've imposed a limit somewhere, so what makes your limit better than mine? Just because you've set the benchmarks higher, that makes them better?

 

Deny it all you want, but you've all set limits for what you will and won't accept for a trained normal, you just haven't set DEX as low as I have.

 

Right so as long as it fits your F/X you'll allow it...yeah, that's SO much different than what I'm saying :nonp:

 

But now let's look at things a little differently. You all say it's "Unfair" to the trained human martial artist, so let's say I change it, trained humans can have whatever DEX they want, it has now ruined my WHOLE system. Why should I limit a scientist EP to human NCM? Would it be fair to them? Why should they be stuck at an 11 DEX and forced to buy Skill levels when Normal Man over there has a 32 DEX and he's just a normal person.

They shouldn't be forced to do either. Hero already defines what is superhuman, and it ain't 21+. It's 30+. If a player actually presented a proposed PC with all 30's in their Primary Characteristics, I'd still look at them with a raised eyebrow no matter what their character's claimed origin. I look for balance within the campaign; not just raw numbers.

 

I certainly don't know where you got the impression I think DEX should without limits at all, much less the only Characteristic without limits. I've certainly made no such statement in this thread (or elsewhere). All I've said is that if a PC has superhuman Characteristics as defined by the rules then they're no longer entitled to claim to be merely a Trained Human. He just became a Trained Superhuman; as for example the original Captain America after taking the Super Soldier Serum was.

 

I wouldn't allow a PC with 50 CON, 50 PD/ED and a 12 SPD because he'd be unbalancing in my campaign regardless of whether he claimed his abilities sprang from being a trained human, wearing powered armor, having mutation, or prolonged exposure to radioactive Cheez Whiz™. He'd step on the MAs' and the brick's schticks. It's not about numbers, it's about game balance. And making Batman with the same SPD and/or DEX as a Green Beret is just as damaging to game balance as allowing him a 45 DEX or 50 STR, and at least he demonstrably doesn't lift tanks. Champions is a game about supers; the trained normal is already at a disadvantage because he doesn't have superpowers. They don't need further penalties. The only difference with STR is it's the only characteristic that's actually quantifiable in real world terms - "You can lift X amount." But what does an 18 CON really mean? A 7 SPD? A 20 REC? They're relevant only in relation to other characters' Chartacteristics. The only thing we know for certain is that, all other things being equal, a character with a 20 CON is slightly more durable/tougher than one with a 19 CON. Beyond that the two numbers are meaningless.

 

You make a far stronger case for DEX inflation in Hero than you do for SPD inflation. IMO it's a mistake to conflate the two.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

You can normalize both Str and martial arts damage classes to get a fair comparison.

 

2 DCs and +2 PD costs 10 pts and get you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

ability to add to Martial Flash, KAs, and NNDs.

 

+10 Str 0 End and subtracting 5 Stun costs 10 pts and gets you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

+2 Rec

+2" Leap

X4 Lift

+1d6 free "Damage Shield" from Casual Strength limited to Grabs/Entangles

Ability to use the environment for free Area Effects and Range if Str is high enough.

A limited Constant aspect

 

Str wins big time.

Which was precisely the point I was making. He was claiming STR and martial arts were equivalent. :)

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

In all fairness to checkmate, the 20+ or 30+ is a world building issue, what Hero has published on this issue is the guidelines for there worlds, not a hard and fast rule.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Which was precisely the point I was making. He was claiming STR and martial arts were equivalent. :)

 

His Kung Fu is strong...

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

You can normalize both Str and martial arts damage classes to get a fair comparison.

 

2 DCs and +2 PD costs 10 pts and get you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

ability to add to Martial Flash, KAs, and NNDs.

 

+10 Str 0 End and subtracting 5 Stun costs 10 pts and gets you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

+2 Rec

+2" Leap

X4 Lift

+1d6 free "Damage Shield" from Casual Strength limited to Grabs/Entangles

Ability to use the environment for free Area Effects and Range if Str is high enough.

A limited Constant aspect

 

Str wins big time.

 

This requires you to accept that +2 REC (4 points), +2 leap (2 points), and the other four abilities (points uncertain) is more valuable than the extra DC's in Martial Flash, KAs, and NNDs (value also uncertain). Buying +2 DC's (+1 to the KA) in a Multipower would require you to raise the base MP points by 10, and pay 1 for each Ultra slot (0.5 for the KA), or 12.5 points. The value of STR's other abilities must be worth 7 points to make it the (slightly) better bargain.

 

Of course, if the MA doesn't have all three special martial attacks, or if he has some others [there are two standard Martial NND's, plus all those "move and attack" maneuvers in UMA, for example] the theoretical cost varies.

 

About the only time we have a clear and certain bargain price is when both builds grant the exact same abilities.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

And I may have missed it but if this NCM thing is a consistent thing across the whole campaign for 'norms'' date=' what's the issue? These numbers on the page can be fiddled with by talented makers to make a character who can really mix it with the tough lads, or you can keep it simple.[/quote']

 

Would it be equally OK if NCM applied for female characters and not male characters? What if it only applied to players with red hair?

 

Consider one sample build. It will be a highly trained combatant, either a mutant or a normal human, with NCM applied only if he is a normal human. The builds will be absolutely identical except where noted:

 

DEX - human has 20. Mutant has 26. Mutant pays 18 extra points.

SPD - both have 4. Mutant pays 6 less points due to DEX.

DCV Levels - human has 2 to offset the mutant's DEX. Mutant pays 10 less points.

OCV levels - human has 2 to offset the mutant's DEX. Mutant pays 10 less points.

Lightning reflexes - human has +6 to offset the mutant's DEX. Mutant pays 4 less points.

Levels w/ DEX skills - human has 2 to offset the mutant's DEX. Mutant pays 10 less points.

Other Abilities in Common - each has 328 points spent on identical other abilities

Extra Abilities - mutant pays 22 points less for his CV, combat order and DEX skills, so he has 22 points of added abilities.

 

Both characters have spent 350 points. They are functionally identical except that the mutant has 22 extra points to buy extras. Is this fair? How many game sessions will it take for Human to achieve parity with Mutant? Well, he never will - at best, the disparity will be constant. At worst, Mutant will buy up his DEX further, leaving Human further behind.

 

hmmm...this provides a good reason for that whole "humans hate mutants" theme, doesn't it?

 

The imbalance gets worse, of course, if we want to give our characters speeds of 5 or 6, which we would in most games. Every extra SPD grants the mutant a further 10 point advantage. However, in Checkmate's game, he has restricted speed considerably, so 4 speed is likely adequate.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Is it OK? Perhaps. I mean morally it is a bit dodgy to say only women have NCM, but if that's the way the world has been set up then that's the way it works in the game. As long as the players know about it, why not?

 

And yes, it does provide the exact right reason for humans to hate mutants doesn't it? What's the term in Marvel? Homo Superior?

 

Anyways, this NCM discussion probably needs it's own thread. Seems like a goody.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

So what you're saying is' date=' combat skills levels suck? It's better to put your points into DEX? This would suggest that DEX is undervalued.[/quote']

On the contrary, all apply. Tarzan would have really high stats, incredible abilities and some CSLs. Li Mu Bai (Crouching Tiger...) would have some high stats, incredible abilities and lots of CSLs. In other words, the character itself determines the appropriate mix, not the optimal point/capability buy. It is better to stay true to the character concept and roleplay.

 

That being said, a low level campaign Tarzan character with say, a 23 DEX/5 SPD would appropriately be 29 DEX/6 or 7 SPD in a high level campaign. Reality is pretty much maleable in RPGs.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

That being said' date=' a low level campaign Tarzan character with say, a 23 DEX/5 SPD would appropriately be 29 DEX/6 or 7 SPD in a high level campaign. Reality is pretty much maleable in RPGs.[/quote']

 

Yes, yes, and yes!

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Is it OK? Perhaps. I mean morally it is a bit dodgy to say only women have NCM, but if that's the way the world has been set up then that's the way it works in the game. As long as the players know about it, why not?

 

And yes, it does provide the exact right reason for humans to hate mutants doesn't it? What's the term in Marvel? Homo Superior?

 

Anyways, this NCM discussion probably needs it's own thread. Seems like a goody.

 

It's got quite a few already

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

On the contrary' date=' all apply. Tarzan would have really high stats, incredible abilities and some CSLs. .[/quote']

 

Why? Given that Dex can represent trained skill, and given that skill levels represent trained skill, and combat skill levels are way inferior to Dex, why bother getting any combat skill levels? All it would be is another unnecessary slot on your character sheet.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

This requires you to accept that +2 REC (4 points), +2 leap (2 points), and the other four abilities (points uncertain) is more valuable than the extra DC's in Martial Flash, KAs, and NNDs (value also uncertain). Buying +2 DC's (+1 to the KA) in a Multipower would require you to raise the base MP points by 10, and pay 1 for each Ultra slot (0.5 for the KA), or 12.5 points. The value of STR's other abilities must be worth 7 points to make it the (slightly) better bargain.

 

Of course, if the MA doesn't have all three special martial attacks, or if he has some others [there are two standard Martial NND's, plus all those "move and attack" maneuvers in UMA, for example] the theoretical cost varies.

 

About the only time we have a clear and certain bargain price is when both builds grant the exact same abilities.

 

 

I don't quite see the ability to add 2 DCs to martial flash, KA, or NNDs to be worth 12.5 pts. This is from extensive experience and play. Also, the MA must purchase those 3 maneuvers to begin with, which would cost 12 pts or so additional.

 

Whereas Rec, Leap, Lift, and Casual have long proven value in actual play.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

So to summorise (sp)

 

A) you admit that normal guy has to spend more points in your game to be as competent as mutant guy?

 

B) You think that is fair because it does not interfere with the way you set up your world (Which btw contradicts your statement on lets keep this about being fair and cost, you have brought in your views on how a world should be)

Well my world views did have a lot to do with being fair. I've simply broadened the "is it fair". It depends on who you're talking about being fair to. You have to be fair to EVERYONE involved not just the one player.

 

Let me see if I can make you see this another way, on a conceptual level:

 

(Don't answer based on your system)Should an equal amount of points spent give a character an equal amount of abilities, regardless of origin? Yes or No

My intial response would have been "Yes", but thinking about it, I thought of Element Controls. They go by character conception (or are supposed to). If you wanted a Werewolf Element Control, a GM shouldn't allow you to take an Energy Blast with an ice SFX. That means you would have to pay more than someone who could fit an ice SFX EB into their Element Control.

 

So with this example in mind, I'd answer with a resounding: Probably. In most cases you're right it should. If it were to ever become a problem, I might consider DEX with limitations instead of straight combat levels, I'd have to do some play testing and math to make sure though.

 

There were some other things I had forgotten to respond to:

Someone said that I don't play my Trained Nomal with my system, and you're right I don't ANYMORE, but if recall I've said I didn't develop this system, just adopted it. I came to LOVE this system playing the concept you all seem to think is gimped or unfairly treated.

 

There was also mention of Stan Lee's Spiderman: You're absolutely right, I wouldn't have approved the character. I haven't read comics in quite some time, but when I did, look at how Spiderman was treated: It's like they absolutely forgot that he was a Chemistry guru. I mean what has he created besides his web shooters? He couldn't even make a living with it, but in highschool he could create these things? Heck there are comics where he acts absolutely lost when it comes to science (Secret Wars he acts clueless around Reed Richards, Avengers acts suprised that creatures made out of lava can burn through his webs, two examples off the top of my head). I think there WERE reasons Stan didn't want Spidey to have internal webs (probably the whole spinneretts on the butt) and ONLY made him a chem wiz to solve that problem. Which can be equated to only using it to save points on a IIF, but all this is just a theory.

 

People were also complaining they hate when a GM forces their concept of a character on a player: Well I try not to do that, but I am not a forgiving GM and I make no apologies about that. If I don't like your character or concept I won't allow it. If your heart is set on that character/concept, find a different GM. If I don't like your character or concept it won't be fun to GM that character. If the GM isn't having fun, it hurts my other players. I'm very big on the players are the stars of the show. They are the best around and every aspect of them is important. I'm only human, if I don't like your character, I'll find myself dreading coming up with senarios where that character will shine.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Why? Given that Dex can represent trained skill' date=' and given that skill levels represent trained skill, and combat skill levels are way inferior to Dex, why bother getting any combat skill levels? All it would be is another unnecessary slot on your character sheet.[/quote']

Because a player whose character concept definition is of relatively normal human stats but an incredible Martial Arts ability should be willing to use the maneuvers to affect OC/DCV advantages of the opposition while doing real damage through the use of Martil Arts, CSLs, and Find Weakness. At some point the challenge of playing the character is more important for me than doing or taking the most damage 350 can generate.

 

After thirty years of gaming, I have seen most variations of stretching the original character concept around the most efficient combat ability purchases, but no amount of sophistry will make a Dark Knight type character with Flash's DEX and SPD, Superman's STR, PD and ED, and Green Lantern's VPP ring into a character that anyone would believe is Batman just because one could afford to build him that way.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I don't quite see the ability to add 2 DCs to martial flash' date=' KA, or NNDs to be worth 12.5 pts. This is from extensive experience and play. Also, the MA must purchase those 3 maneuvers to begin with, which would cost 12 pts or so additional.[/quote']

 

ACK! 12.5 is over - the attacks are all no range! But the cost is more than you seem to credit. CONSIDER:

 

30 Multipower: 45 point base, no range

 

3 u 9d6 Flash, no range

3 u 3d6 RKA, no range

3 u 4 1/2d6 EB, NND, no range

 

39 points

 

40 Multipower: 60 point base, no range

4 u 12d6 Flash, no range

4 u 4d6 RKA, no range

4 u 6d6 EB, NND, no range

 

52 points

 

3DC's for 13 points means 2 DC's for 8 2/3 points (not the 12.5 I initially estimated). I'm using RKA due to the no range issue, and adding full DC's as STR would normally add to an HKA. [As I said, whenever the abilities aren't exactly identical, we muddy the waters to some extent.]

 

Martial Artists in my games have never felt like they were second class heroes compared to the Bricks.

 

Whereas Rec' date=' Leap, Lift, and Casual have long proven value in actual play.[/quote']

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Well my world views did have a lot to do with being fair. I've simply broadened the "is it fair". It depends on who you're talking about being fair to. You have to be fair to EVERYONE involved not just the one player.

 

So are you saying it's unfair to the other players if the Highly Trained Human character can buy his abilities for the SAME point cost their characters, which fall into some other archetype, would pay for the SAME abilities?

 

There was also mention of Stan Lee's Spiderman: You're absolutely right' date=' I wouldn't have approved the character. I haven't read comics in quite some time, but when I did, look at how Spiderman was treated: It's like they absolutely forgot that he was a Chemistry guru. I mean what has he created besides his web shooters?[/quote']

 

OK, I'm not a huge Spidey fan, but, off the top of my head:

 

- the device that removed the Vulture's ability to fly

- the acid that welded 2 or Doc Ock's robotic arms together

- the Spider Tracers that trigger his spider sense so he can track people

- Impact webbing (I think the clone made it, but still Peter Parker's skills)

 

He couldn't even make a living with it' date=' but in highschool he could create these things?[/quote']

 

I recall he couldn't sell it to the glue company because it faded after an hour. You'd think he could have figured out how to make that limitation go away. [sounds like his GM was clutching at straws to avoid letting him buy Wealth with his xp ;) ]

 

Heck there are comics where he acts absolutely lost when it comes to science (Secret Wars he acts clueless around Reed Richards' date=' Avengers acts suprised that creatures made out of lava can burn through his webs, two examples off the top of my head).[/quote']

 

Everyone is clueless compared to Reed Richards. Molton Man used to have difficulty with his webs. And any character with 40+ years of continuous publishing history will have some discrepancies turn up over time. [it only took Happy Days a couple of seasons to lose a Cunningham child entirely!]

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

You have to be fair to EVERYONE involved not just the one player.

Right. That's why, if I wanted a low-power world where everyone is mostly NCM or under, I would apply NCM universally to all characters. No exceptions for concept, saving possibly for characteristics bought as powers in some cases. This might not work out to be a lot different from what you're doing currently, but it makes the line in the sand clearer.

 

Then you can have several characters each start with a given level of DEX, and have character A buy 'Super-Trained Reflexes: +10 DEX', character B buy 'Mutant Reflexes: +10 DEX', and character C buy 'Precognitive Reflexes: +10 DEX' and not have to quibble about SFX, as all of them are powers, i.e. abilities not available to non-supers. You can become a super by exceptional training, but at the end of the day you're still a super.

 

If I don't like your character or concept I won't allow it.

 

Spot on. Don't make someone pay extra CP if you don't think the power should be allowed on the sheet. Make them justify it, and if you don't like the justification, just say no. This avoids the problem of having characters not balance relative to one another. If they don't like it, they can make a better-justified character. But if Joe Green Lantern clone wants martial arts, and he can justify it in his background, he shouldn't have to pay more for it; he already won't be as good as a pure martial artist simply by virtue of the fact that most of his points will go to fuel his power ring.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Why? Given that Dex can represent trained skill' date=' and given that skill levels represent trained skill, and combat skill levels are way inferior to Dex, why bother getting any combat skill levels?[/quote']In a word: concept.

 

A "highly trained human" as opposed to a "superhuman" might by concept have to concentrate on what he's doing (i.e., assign his Combat Levels) for optimal effect against a particular opponent. Combat Levels can also provide extra damage; something DEX simply can't do. And of course, if the character also has a lot of non-combat Skills, then Overall Levels might well become a better buy than the 3/5/8 CP Combat Skill Levels.

 

Even my character Zl'f, with a 43 DEX, has two Overall Levels, which in combat are usually applied to her DCV. I think, based on play experience, that that's proven more useful than simply buying her DEX up to 53 with the extra 20 points would have been because not all of her Skills are DEX-based.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

People were also complaining they hate when a GM forces their concept of a character on a player: Well I try not to do that' date=' but I am not a forgiving GM and I make no apologies about that. If I don't like your character or concept I won't allow it. If your heart is set on that character/concept, find a different GM. If I don't like your character or concept it won't be fun to GM that character. If the GM isn't having fun, it hurts my other players. I'm very big on the players are the stars of the show. They are the best around and every aspect of them is important. I'm only human, if I don't like your character, I'll find myself dreading coming up with scenarios where that character will shine.[/quote']This is of course every GMs right, and I'm no different. I may not tell a player "Your character concept/build sucks," but I certainly would tell him "He just won't work in this campaign. Either try again with another character, or redesign him as I've suggested." (A character concept I've actually seen was a "vampire" who was immune to sunlight, holy symbols and holy water, and didn't drink blood. In my book that's not a vampire, and I simply wouldn't allow it in my game, the example of Blade notwithstanding.)

 

Players have equal right to vote with their feet and leave. Over the 23 years I've been playing Champions I've quit playing in three different Champions campaigns, including a recent PBEM one which had a truly gifted GM who was simply too much of a jerk for me to put up with. Too bad, because strictly as a GM he was outstanding. As a person, he was Mr. Hyde.

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Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Going back a little more on-topic ... ;)

 

It occurs to me that the decision of CSLs vs MA is simply a matter of player choice and how he envisions his character. Much as you can declare that your character's Fire Blast is an EB, or RKA, or AP EB, or Penetrating RKA, or any of hundreds of other things, whether or not you want to declare his enhanced fighting ability, mechanically, to be CSL or MA is simply a matter of choice.

 

Either is perfectly valid.

(I know that and you know that, but it really stymes the intellectual types if they can't argue the merits)

 

:D

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