Pushing a HA with Advantages

[Hyper-Man]

Crazy things I think of with time to burn but no 5ER in site....

 

As I understand it, pushing in a superheroic setting allows up to 2 Damage Classes regardless of any advantages on the attack power (or STR) being pushed. If this is correct, what happens in the following situation?

 

Say you have a character with an HA of 4d6 with a +1/2 advantage* (30 active points) and a 30 STR.

 

*Can be any advantage. Not purchased as Naked Advantage on the HA for this example.

 

He can only do a combined total of 8d6 advantaged HA damage since he can only add 20 out of his total 30 STR with the advantaged HA.

 

But what happens if he pushes the HA by 10 active points/2 DC's?

 

Can he now add his full 30 STR for a combined 12d6 advantaged HA damage since the 'base damage' of the HA has been raised or is the 'base damage' unaffected by a push in this case?

 

I searched the FAQ on this and couldn't find anything. Please forgive me if this is already covered in 5ER.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

Actually, there are a couple of issues here that need to be addressed first.

 

What a lot of folks miss with Hand-To-Hand Attacks is that they are not prorated for Strength. IOW the amount of STR you apply to a HA will increase the Base Damage of the HA by an equal amount, no matter how many Advantages the HA has on it.

 

However, in a superheroic campaign, unless the character has the same Advantages on his STR as are on the HA, he can only do a maximum of double the Base Damage of the HA. So in the case you cite the attack will still only do 8d6 damage at most before Pushing, because the character's STR is unAdvantaged.

 

How does this affect your Pushing scenario? I would say that if the character's STR doesn't have all the Advantages of the HA, Pushing could not exceed the 8d6 cap for the HA, so it would have no effect. If the character's STR does have all the same Advantages, then Pushing either his STR or his HA will add 10 Base Points plus Advantages to the DC his attack does.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

from 5ER, page 427 "Pushing":

 

* Pushing in Superheroic campaigns can boost a Power up to ten Character points, not 2 Damage Classes. (These normally come out the same, however.)

 

* You're right in that only the base Power is pushed, disregarding Advantages.

 

So in your example, the 4d6 HA with +1/2 Advantage becomes 6d6 HA with +1/2 Advantage. I can't find anything directly on the 'base damage' issue, but "Doubling Damage" on page 405 lists extra Maneuver damage, extra STR, damage bonus from movement, and CLSs used to increase damage as subject to the doubling restriction. Pushing is not listed. I tend to think that since Pushing adds to the base Power, it would be counted as 'base damage', as is the Deadly Blow Talent or if the Power was Aided. But that's certainly not definitive. Work asking in the Rules forum.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

I see Lord Liaden and I came to different conclusions.

 

I see the possibilities as:

 

1. Pushing doesn't count as base damage. Then, the original 4d6 cannot go past 8d6, STR already gets you there, and Pushing doesn't help (Lord Liaden's conclusion).

 

2. Pushing counts as base damage, but 'double-dipping' and adding STR to the Pushed dice is not allowed. This would be 4d6 HA + 4d6 STR + 2d6 Push = 10d6.

 

3. Pushing counts as base damage, and 'double-dipping' and adding STR to the Pushed dice is allowed. This would be 4d6 HA + 4d6 STR + 2d6 Push + 2d6 STR = 12d6 (SCUBA Hero's conclusion).

 

My perusal of 5Er on this doesn't give me a definite answer. From a play balance standpoint, now I'm leaning to #2. Advantaged HAs are always tricky...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

from 5ER, page 427 "Pushing":

 

* Pushing in Superheroic campaigns can boost a Power up to ten Character points, not 2 Damage Classes. (These normally come out the same, however.)

 

Just to clarify, I took this passage from the FAQ:

 

Question: If a character Pushes a power or Characteristic

that has an Advantage, does the Advantage automatically

apply to the dice obtained from Pushing?

 

Answer: Yes; the character doesn’t have to “pay” or

“account” for the Advantage. For example, if a character has

an EB 8d6, Armor Piercing and he Pushes it for 10 Character

Points, he fires an EB 10d6, Armor Piercing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

I see Lord Liaden and I came to different conclusions.

 

I see the possibilities as:

 

1. Pushing doesn't count as base damage. Then, the original 4d6 cannot go past 8d6, STR already gets you there, and Pushing doesn't help (Lord Liaden's conclusion).

 

2. Pushing counts as base damage, but 'double-dipping' and adding STR to the Pushed dice is not allowed. This would be 4d6 HA + 4d6 STR + 2d6 Push = 10d6.

 

3. Pushing counts as base damage, and 'double-dipping' and adding STR to the Pushed dice is allowed. This would be 4d6 HA + 4d6 STR + 2d6 Push + 2d6 STR = 12d6 (SCUBA Hero's conclusion).

 

My perusal of 5Er on this doesn't give me a definite answer. From a play balance standpoint, now I'm leaning to #2. Advantaged HAs are always tricky...

 

 

I agree that #2 seems correct. #3 seems like 'double-dipping' to me as well. I was just wondering if anyone knew of something in 5ER or the FAQ that supported this argument.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

2. Pushing counts as base damage' date=' but 'double-dipping' and adding STR to the Pushed dice is not allowed. This would be 4d6 HA + 4d6 STR + 2d6 Push = 10d6.[/quote']

 

Since a HA only adds to the damage from STR, and is not usable unless the character employs his STR, IMO double-dipping isn't possible in this case. You would still only get total damage equal to the HA plus STR, plus the extra damage from whichever of those you Pushed (unless you allow Pushing for STR and for a Power simultaneously).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

Since a HA only adds to the damage from STR' date=' and is not usable unless the character employs his STR, IMO double-dipping isn't possible in this case. You would still only get total damage equal to the HA plus STR, plus the extra damage from whichever of those you Pushed (unless you allow Pushing for STR and for a Power simultaneously).[/quote']

 

I've always thought of HA's like a Lightsaber from Star Wars.

 

How hard you swing it has something to do with how far it slices into something. How easily it actually destroys a particular material imposes the hard limit of when swinging harder makes no difference. Increasing the Lightsaber's power output (the 'pushing' of the HA in the case) should allow more force to be applied via a harder swing as well.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

Hey, I just go by what's written for HERO System. The fine points of the Lucasverse are a different subject altogether.

 

If that's the effect you're going for, though, HKA would be more along those lines. Pushing a HKA would increase the Base Damage of it, and hence its maximum possible Damage, allowing you to apply more STR to raise it to its maximum.

 

Now that I think of it, the same thing would indeed work for a HA where the double-damage limit applies: Push it and you can add more STR, assuming you have enough available to reach the maximum limit.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

Hey, I just go by what's written for HERO System. The fine points of the Lucasverse are a different subject altogether.

 

If that's the effect you're going for, though, HKA would be more along those lines. Pushing a HKA would increase the Base Damage of it, and hence its maximum possible Damage, allowing you to apply more STR to raise it to its maximum.

 

I was just borrowing the Lucasverse to illustrate the point. I am not as familiar with the advantaged HKA rules as I am with HA. I believe STR adds DC's at a prorated amount linked to the value of the Advantages on the HKA. If raising the DC's of the HKA via push increases the maximum STR limit for adding DC's to it why would HA's be any different?

 

I really just want to be able to explain this to any munchkins that I may encounter.

[That Masked Man]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

Unless I am misunderstanding, the advantage is not really that relevant. The idea here is if you have more strength than you can use to add to a HA and you push to increase the damage of the HA, does that push allow you to add extra strength to the attack. The same case could also happen with a HKA.

 

Example: Cutting Man has a 1d6+1 HKA and 30 STR. Normally he can add 20 STR for a total damage of 2 1/2d6. If he pushes his HKA by 10 points to 2d6, can he add his full 30 STR to get a total of 4d6? If he can, why would it be any different for a HA?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

Here's a better example...

 

Say we build a Human Torch type blaster called "Zapper" in HERO and give him an Energy based HA. We give him a STR of 20 and a 6d6 HA with Penetrating, Damage Sheild that can be used for attacks, Continuous and Only Costs End to Activate.

 

As I understand it, he should be able to do a 10d6 punch this way. Let's say that Proffesor Gizmo points his "Atlas-Ray" (Aid to STR) at "Zapper" and increases his STR to 50. Now Zapper can definitely do 12d6 with his HA.

 

Why can't he do 16d6 with all advantages (6+2 for the HA plus 8 for now using 40 of his current 50 STR) if he pushes the HA by 10 points?

[That Masked Man]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

Here's a better example...

 

Say we build a Human Torch type blaster called "Zapper" in HERO and give him an Energy based HA. We give him a STR of 20 and a 6d6 HA with Penetrating, Damage Sheild that can be used for attacks, Continuous and Only Costs End to Activate.

 

As I understand it, he should be able to do a 10d6 punch this way. Let's say that Proffesor Gizmo points his "Atlas-Ray" (Aid to STR) at "Zapper" and increases his STR to 50. Now Zapper can definitely do 12d6 with his HA.

 

Why can't he do 16d6 with all advantages (6+2 for the HA plus 8 for now using 40 of his current 50 STR) if he pushes the HA by 10 points?

 

You never stated if his STR was advantaged. If it is, then I think he COULD add all of his STR for a total of 18d6. (10d6 for STR + 6d6 HA + 2d6 pushed HA) If it is not then he can only add as much as he has in HA. Pushing the HA gives him 6d6 HA+ 2d6 pushed HA + max STR of either 6d6 or 8d6 depending on if the pushed HA is considered "base" for a total of either 14d6 or 16d6. I am still not clear which should be the case, but the latter makes more sense to me at the moment.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

TMM, you raise what could be a very relevant distinction. Despite Hand To Hand Attack being listed as a separate Power, it's also a Limitation that's described as "essentially Limited STR." So if you're Pushing a HA, are you Pushing a Power that's separate from STR, in which case the HA is Base Damage which you could "pair" with a comparable amount of STR? Or is it really Limited STR, in which case Pushing it is just Pushing your STR?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

I just asked Steve. Curious about this one myself.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

"Pragmatism? Is that the best you can come up with?"

 

(From Rosencrantz And Guildenstern Are Dead)

 

[P.S. Love the new smilie.]

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

"Pragmatism? Is that the best you can come up with?"

 

(From Rosencrantz And Guildenstern Are Dead)

 

[P.S. Love the new smilie.]

 

I've got a bunch I have on my website so I can use them on any board I'm on.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

Yep, the question really boils down to 'does Pushing count as base damage or not?'.

 

I'm watching the Rules forum for an answer on that myself...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

Well, according to Steve, pushing IS considered base damage.

 

Gary had asked a similar question regarding HKA back in 03 but no one had specifically brought up the combination discussed in this thread.

 

This can create some interresting results for certain 'tweener' characters.

 

example:

my namesake character HD link below: http://www.herodesigner.com/characters.htm?genre=&template=&userID=183700

• Can do a normal (unadvantaged 65 STR) punch of 13d6 (19d6 Pushed+Haymakered).
  
• He can also do an Advantaged punch (6d6 HA w/ +1 worth of advantages + 30 STR) of 12d6 (20d6 Pushed+Haymakered IF pushing the HA instead of his STR)

The character has a 'gas-pedal' of sorts built in. He can fight as a traditional brick in high END efficiency quite well. When speed is required he can be an END hog without pushing. Now pushing gives him a 'nitrous-mode' of sorts.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Pushing a HA with Advantages

 

The character has a 'gas-pedal' of sorts built in. He can fight as a traditional brick in high END efficiency quite well. When speed is required he can be an END hog without pushing. Now pushing gives him a 'nitrous-mode' of sorts.

You scare SCUBA