Alignment Issues

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I don't think I'd allow those Detects either' date=' both because of the game-ruining possibilities, and because they're cheaper ways to accomplish what's normally done with Mental Powers, usually Telepathy.[/quote']

 

In my view, telepathy is considerably different from such a Detect. We may have to agree to disagree in that regard, but for interest:

 

Detect a large class ofthings (psych lims; "very common or abstract objects or phenomena", abstract the key word here) is 10 points. Discriminatory +5, Analyze +5, Ranged +5 makes 25 points. That would buy a lot of dice of Telepathy given the limitations - it has a normal range modifier, can only read a subclass of Deep Hidden Thoughts and does not provide mental awareness. It can only receive, not transmit. It can't be used through a Mind Scan either. OTOH, it's 0 END and requires no attack roll.

 

I think those are some pretty substantial differences, and I don't find the costs prima facie out of line.

 

As to this generally being the province of telepathy, no more so, IMO, than detecting whether the target is Good or Evil.

[David Johnston]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

 

What I hated more was WW Humanity, now that was an alignment system that was screwed up. They set you up as cold blooded killers, and in general amoral people, but if you act to save your own skin you can lose Humanity and come closer to losing you character from play completely. Even in AD&D, you could still play your character perfectly well if he went from Chaotic Good, to Chaotic Evil, he just wasn't going to get along with the Paladin in the party

 

TB

 

As usual with White Wolf it was more hype than reality. There was no chance that you would ever be driven any further down the scale than Humanity 3 unless you worked really, really hard at catapulting sexually molested babies at spikes. You could stay at Humanity 1 forever without effort. They just wanted you to be worried about it, just as they wanted you to be worried about about the coming death of your werewolf's species so you could be "horrified".

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

 

As usual with White Wolf it was more hype than reality. There was no chance that you would ever be driven any further down the scale than Humanity 3 unless you worked really, really hard at catapulting sexually molested babies at spikes. You could stay at Humanity 1 forever without effort. They just wanted you to be worried about it, just as they wanted you to be worried about about the coming death of your werewolf's species so you could be "horrified".

You obviously didn't have to put up with the confrontational "I want to play my Munchkin, too" GM, that used the mechanic to basically create unrealistic moral conundrums, to include losing humanity for gunning down security guards for Pentex in self defense.

 

TB

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

AFAIK, there's no "Humanity" stat in Werewolf. That's Vampire.

 

I don't care for the WhiteWolf attitude, really, but at least avoid conflating the particulars of the two games in the course of criticizing them.

[David Johnston]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

You obviously didn't have to put up with the confrontational "I want to play my Munchkin, too" GM, that used the mechanic to basically create unrealistic moral conundrums, to include losing humanity for gunning down security guards for Pentex in self defense.

 

Well you could lose humanity for killing in self defense, if your humanity was up above 8 or so. (which is of course more "human" than your average human). But no game system is proof against a GM who misunderstands or abuses the system by for example confusing "murder" with "killing" even though they were separate categories on the Heirarchy of Sins.

 

AFAIK, there's no "Humanity" stat in Werewolf.

 

I wasn't suggesting there was. I was just comparing the two.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I always rejected the notion that killing in actual self-defense was something that required a loss of "humanity".

[David Johnston]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I always rejected the notion that killing in actual self-defense was something that required a loss of "humanity".

 

It didn't require it so much as risk it, on the theory that someone who repeatedly kills in self defense is going to get more hardened to killing. It's not a moral judgement. How could it be when the World of Darkness had no good in it? It's a psychological theory.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

It didn't require it so much as risk it' date=' on the theory that someone who repeatedly kills in self defense is going to get more hardened to killing. It's not a moral judgement. How could it be when the World of Darkness had no good in it? It's a psychological theory.[/quote']

 

I think we as gamers vastly underestimate the psychological issues inherent in taking a life, in self-defense or otherwise. The psychological trauma suffered by many police officers or soldiers is pretty substantial.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

It didn't require it so much as risk it' date=' on the theory that someone who repeatedly kills in self defense is going to get more hardened to killing. It's not a moral judgement. How could it be when the World of Darkness had no good in it? It's a psychological theory.[/quote']

 

Well, I also never went along with the "there is no goodness anywhere" concept that some players and many of WW's staff really wanted to push, either. Oh well.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I think we as gamers vastly underestimate the psychological issues inherent in taking a life' date=' in self-defense or otherwise. The psychological trauma suffered by many police officers or soldiers is pretty substantial.[/quote']

 

I had to kill a feral dog once, with a gun, a fairly close range. Bloody mess, and the terrified, confused, almost pleading look in its eyes before I fired the second shot...I can still see it.

 

And that was just a dog.

 

I don't underestimate those issues.

[David Johnston]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Detect a large class ofthings (psych lims; "very common or abstract objects or phenomena", abstract the key word here) is 10 points. Discriminatory +5, Analyze +5, Ranged +5 makes 25 points. That would buy a lot of dice of Telepathy given the limitations - it has a normal range modifier, can only read a subclass of Deep Hidden Thoughts and does not provide mental awareness. It can only receive, not transmit. It can't be used through a Mind Scan either. OTOH, it's 0 END and requires no attack roll.

 

I think those are some pretty substantial differences, and I don't find the costs prima facie out of line.

 

As to this generally being the province of telepathy, no more so, IMO, than detecting whether the target is Good or Evil.

 

I kind of prefer to leave discriminatory and analyze out. Lots of opportunities for ambiguity and ominous foreshadowing when you are pinging Evil but can't be sure what kind or exactly where.

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I was wondering that myself.

It's been a decade or more since my last rereading of the Elric books, but by the midpoint of the series wasn't he shagging a priestess of law and beginning to rid the world of various Lords of Chaos?

 

Yeah, but that's the point, No? Elric is a hero who acts in a non-heroic fashion, a basically decent chap who commits evil acts, a violent killer armed with chaotic magic and a chaotic sword who ends up furthering the cause of Law and who - at the end of the series after being the Champion of Chaos, and an Agent of Law, ends up shafting *both* sides.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Looping back to the original point of the thread, a nice approach suggested by my friend Fitz (and which I like) is that most people don't have an alignment. It's not something you are born with, stamped on your soul in letters of gold/brass/lead, but something you choose (or presumably that can be chosen for you by an ancestor who made a debatable bargain with some power or other)

 

Thus, to be a paladin and gain groovy paladin powers, you have to dedicate yourself to the cause of Capital G-Good and capital L Law. That gives you access also to magic items produced by the cosmic forces of Good and Law for their champions. If you behave in a non-good fashion, you lose all of those benefits. If you pick up a weapon devised for the use of Evil and Chaos, prepare to use some regeneration on the stump of your wrist - and if you do so knowingly, prepare for some atonement.

 

Likewise, if you decicate yourself to the cause of Evil you get access to k3wl evil powers and useful pillow talk from Succubi. Pick up a Holy Avenger and get your hand burned off - but you can read the Book of Vile Deeds and get some neato party tricks instead of having your brains turned to scrambled eggs.

 

In both cases, however, choosing an alignment also means choosing a side, which draws to you the eye of higher powers on both sides of the fence, who are likely to send their champions to bump you off.

 

Think of it as essentialy joining the Eternal game in much the same way as Greek Heroes did. Do well enough in the game and maybe you get to be a Power yourself. Do poorly and die horribly.

 

Bob the peasant, on the other hand, has no alignment. He's essentially a pawn who gets brutally killed (and then avenged) as the alignment circus rolls through his village.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Oh and forgot to add - from a mechanical point of view, powers that are attained by being specifically aligned can simply take the "Only while remaining true to alignment" limitation (-1/2 sounds about right) which both deals with the mechanical aspect (Mess up theologically and your powers stop working until you atone or otherwise get back on board) and also explains *why* people choose sides - not only a philosophical issue, but by becoming a "Champion of whoever" you get a price break on your powers - or in in-game terms by becoming a champion, you gain extra divine (or infernal) might.

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Yeah' date=' but that's the point, No? Elric is a hero who acts in a non-heroic fashion, a basically decent chap who commits evil acts, a violent killer armed with chaotic magic and a chaotic sword who ends up furthering the cause of Law and who - at the end of the series after being the Champion of Chaos, and an Agent of Law, ends up shafting *both* sides.[/quote']

 

Well, he was trying to remake the world without the influences of Law and Chaos -- so men could decide their own fate.

 

Corum is the one who shafted Law, by returning the Hand and Eye and thus allowing the two gods to whom the parts belonged to kill all the other gods.

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Ahh, Corum, Elric, Hawkmoon - same guy, right?

 

Anyway, you're right - Corum did it intentionally. But Elric still managed the same trick, just in a much, much, messier fashion.

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Ahh, Corum, Elric, Hawkmoon - same guy, right?

 

Anyway, you're right - Corum did it intentionally. But Elric still managed the same trick, just in a much, much, messier fashion.

 

Well... yeah.

 

Hmm... I'd say Corum didn't do it intentionally. He wanted Chaos gone but Law to remain. Elric wanted to get rid of both.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

How many characters with a 20 point Code vs Killing have you seen actually restrain themselves - ie use less than full attack power - against an unknown in a costume for fear they might kill/injure the target? How many that think "It's OK because my 15d6 EB isn't a Killing Attack"?

*raises hand* It came up a few times, but most notably the occasion when my character blew her first four combat actions dodging and pulling her punches, and as a result got trounced in a fight she'd probably have won otherwise.

 

As usual with White Wolf it was more hype than reality. There was no chance that you would ever be driven any further down the scale than Humanity 3 unless you worked really' date=' really hard at catapulting sexually molested babies at spikes. You could stay at Humanity 1 forever without effort. They just wanted you to be worried about it, just as they wanted you to be worried about about the coming death of your werewolf's species so you could be "horrified". [/quote']

 

The one long running game (ok, it was a LARP) I ran, we'd adjust charcter's humanity according to their behavior. As we ran it, low humanity started having penalties before 3 (started creeping out humans, offending werecreatures and changelings, difficulty in empathy-related rolls...) and that took care of it.

[Wolfgar]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Honestly I've always been fond of Palladium's Alignment system. Especially since the way it is written the bulk of the population in Palladium worlds are jerks.

 

Couple points on Humanity

 

1) It was, and is, really hard to actually get your Humanity stripped away completely. Largely it's used as a game balancing factor; in a game where access to blood is a potent resource, you need a way to keep the players from just viewing every single NPC as a power-up.

 

2) Humanity should not normally be taken away for killing in self defense, except at the higher levels.

 

3) A character losing Humanity is not just becoming evil, but is slowly losing their ability to act rationally. You didn't switch from Chaotic Good to Chaotic Evil; you switched to Chaotic Evil with the Brain of Angry Squirrel.

 

4) The lack of good in the world reflects that Vampire and it's sister games are horror games first and foremost, and in the world of horror, there are no good guys, only survivors.

 

Rant Over.

[Lucius]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Looping back to the original point of the thread' date=' a nice approach suggested by my friend Fitz (and which I like) is that most people [b']don't have an alignment[/b]. It's not something you are born with, stamped on your soul in letters of gold/brass/lead, but something you choose (or presumably that can be chosen for you by an ancestor who made a debatable bargain with some power or other)

 

 

Funny you should say that; I had been thinking something similar.

 

The game Powers and Perils was like that. There were "alignments" in the sense of vast cosmic forces with moral implications to which a person could be attuned - but most people weren't.

 

In fact, a Wizard could learn more than one alignment's spell list, although I think there were certain forbidden pairs - no taking both Law and Chaos spells, for instance.

 

And that's a problem with D&D - there is no "unaligned" option. Nuetral is NOT the same as not having an alignment, although some people in this thread have been talking as if it is. If you look at the "alignment graphs" that Gygax drew, True Neutral is actually the smallest area - a Druid is as restrained in his way, striving to maintain a perfect balance, as the Paladin is in his, striving to embody ultimate Lawful Good.

 

Or should I say, that WAS a problem with D&D. I haven't actually played in many many years, so I have no idea what the game is like these days.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Trying to explain left and right to a palindromedary

[Curufea]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I didn't mention it because it was stating the obvious. Everyone should be aware that alignments are a fictitious gaming mechanic that further makes characters more like two dimensional videogame sprites (classes add to the process of making a character flat).

 

But if you want to play with flat, unrealistic characters - it's your game.

[David Johnston]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

In fact, a Wizard could learn more than one alignment's spell list, although I think there were certain forbidden pairs - no taking both Law and Chaos spells, for instance.

 

And that's a problem with D&D - there is no "unaligned" option. Nuetral is NOT the same as not having an alignment, although some people in this thread have been talking as if it is. If you look at the "alignment graphs" that Gygax drew, True Neutral is actually the smallest area - a Druid is as restrained in his way, striving to maintain a perfect balance, as the Paladin is in his, striving to embody ultimate Lawful Good.

 

Or should I say, that WAS a problem with D&D. I haven't actually played in many many years, so I have no idea what the game is like these days.

Druids no longer have to be True Neutral. They just need to have Neutral somewhere in their alignment. And while Neutral Something may be an alignment, there is no such thing as Detect Neutral, Protection from Neutral, or Smite Neutral. Nor are there swords of Neutrality the way there are weapons of Evil, Good, Law and Chaos. There might still be Neutral outer planes as destinations for the dead (or not, I'm not sure), but that about it as far as Neutrality being an alignment in its own right.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I do remember one D&D game WAYYYY back in the day that I played in that was a bit Moorcockian in aproach, and where the Neutral Human fighter I played became essentialy a champion of the cosmic balance. It was kind of amusing knowing my presence worried the Paladin types almost as much as the "bad guys" did.

[Shike019]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I think I'm going to actually jump into this one since I've been having some thoughts on the topic.

 

Currently I'm running a "current edition" D&D game in the Forgotten Realms. In this setting most people are neutral, as in they generally don't care that much about the Cosmic forces of Good, Evil, Law, Chaos. And in this setting there are Metaphysical and magical forces attuned to each of the alignments. Where this comes in, really, is in three places. An individuals religion (must be somewhat related to their deity), A Cleric/Paladin/Druid/Monk who must have a certain alignment (and clerics/paladins actually an aura associated with their alignment), and extra planar creatures (where they are the imbodyment of that alignment). Otherwise, for characters Not of a divine class, alignments are more flexable and the definitions of those alignments become very individualized.

 

So, in the D&D game, Good, Evil, Law, Chaos are actual metaphysical and magical FACTS not conecpts or ideas. They actually govern how the universe runs (to a degree).

 

This type of thing, in the D&D game, exists to have a clear definition between "good" and "evil", and "law" and "chaos" where in reality it is all shades of gray (and most D&D characters use the Alignment as a guideline not hard rules, except for Clerics/Paladins who do the bidding of their god/dess and must follow the designation of teir deity's alignment.)

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I didn't mention it because it was stating the obvious. Everyone should be aware that alignments are a fictitious gaming mechanic that further makes characters more like two dimensional videogame sprites (classes add to the process of making a character flat).

 

But if you want to play with flat, unrealistic characters - it's your game.

 

Pretty much, yeah.