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Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents


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I think it's fair to say that most established martial arts in real life are designed around the assumption that your opponents will be relatively normal-sized humans, with bodies that function as human.

 

In games, you won't always have that luxury.

 

How effective would some maneuvers be against unusual opponents? I imagine most "strike" type maneuvers would work fine in most cases, but others might have issues. (Note - I don't have UMA or UMM, so don't know if addressed there at all)

 

*Would a 15 Str martial artist be able to Judo throw an elephant? A supervillain with Growth and DI who weighs 25 tons? Could he do a Takedown or a Legsweep and have "target falls" work? Would a 60 Str martial artist be able to Judo throw the elephant, or would he just need to grab+throw?

 

*Can a human martial artist martial grab an octopus? An elephant?

 

*Would a choke hold do damage to an alien that breathes, but breathes through all of its skin? How far off from "human" do you need to be before nerve strike isn't effective?

 

Thoughts?

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

Martial Throw can only affect targets that the character can lift with his normal* pushed STR.

*(+5 in Heroic, +10 in Supers)

 

OK, good. I assume that applies to other "target falls" manuevers as well?

 

Assuming sufficient STR, would you still allow it to work against significantly larger/oddly shaped opponents, like a giant squid?

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

OK, good. I assume that applies to other "target falls" manuevers as well?

 

Assuming sufficient STR, would you still allow it to work against significantly larger/oddly shaped opponents, like a giant squid?

 

Yes.

 

If the target is too large the smaller grabber may end up grabbing what is essentially just 1 limb. What this means is really up to the GM but I had a non-flying brick/ma character run into this very situation fighting a giant demon. My character grabbed the demon's leg but really couldn't throw him down due to lack of leverage. If my character had flight (and room to fly, the fight was in an underground cave) I might have been able to carry the demon into the air by his leg.

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

Size is not the point, and nor is weight. A strong enough martial artist still probably can't legsweep something with four legs, well, unless he can actually catch at least two of them with the legsweep, because it simply will not work: quadrupeds can stand on three legs without noticeable instability.

 

Octupii cannot be joint locked, and skin breathers cannot be choke held.

 

The system breaks down at some levels because of the inherent inclusion of a human character template.

 

I have addressed this through life support, as I usually do when all else fails: LS: unusual physiology is a good enough defence to most nerve strikes and maky choke holds. LS: undifferentiated systems is a good enough defence to most critical hits, or hit location hits, fullstop (you still take damage, you just don't multiply or divide it by anything).

 

As a GM, never be afraid to tell a player that a particular manouvre simply does not work and, if they whine that they paid points for that manouvre, eviscerate* them.

 

 

 

*I have had a bad day, it would probably be more reasonable to simply defenestrate them.

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

I had a thought for how it could be handled in games like Star Hero where non human physiology could be common...

 

Add a "Target Element" to MA, similar to Weapon Elements... default being the martial artists own species, and smiliar to weapon elements, assume that some maneuvers are inherently limited based on SFX (You can't use a kick with a sword... you can't use a choke hold against a skinbreather.. mox nix)

 

Edit: I just noticed no one addressed nerve strikes yet. As they are based on precise strikes to nerve clusters, I doubt they'd work on anythig other than the intended target species unless something like the above target element was used, or perhaps with an application of a KS or Analyze skill

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

I had a thought for how it could be handled in games like Star Hero where non human physiology could be common...

 

Add a "Target Element" to MA, similar to Weapon Elements... default being the martial artists own species, and smiliar to weapon elements, assume that some maneuvers are inherently limited based on SFX (You can't use a kick with a sword... you can't use a choke hold against a skinbreather.. mox nix)

 

Edit: I just noticed no one addressed nerve strikes yet. As they are based on precise strikes to nerve clusters, I doubt they'd work on anythig other than the intended target species unless something like the above target element was used, or perhaps with an application of a KS or Analyze skill

 

Ah, but this is Hero: what if the martial art is not based on precisely positioned strikes to nerve clusters, but on focussed and spun chi that effects the essential being of the target irrespectvie of physiology?

 

OK in a hard sci fi setting you probably won't need to worry about that too much, and I like your idea of a 'target' element, presumably similar to the weapons element: one species for default, others at 1 point per, or 2 points for a close group (mammals, perhaps). That will only apply to certain attacks: you still can't joint lock something without joints, BUT you MIGHT be able to obtain a similar effect by grabbing a nerve ganglion that effectively causes paralysis.

 

Good luck with that one.

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

Ah' date=' but this is Hero: what if the martial art is not based on precisely positioned strikes to nerve clusters, but on focussed and spun chi that effects the essential being of the target irrespectvie of physiology?[/quote']

I'd be inclined to put this at the "campaign ground rules" level... I'd be disinclined to allow one character the ability to use all their MA moves and restrict another at no point cost/penalty in the same game.

 

OK in a hard sci fi setting you probably won't need to worry about that too much, and I like your idea of a 'target' element, presumably similar to the weapons element: one species for default, others at 1 point per, or 2 points for a close group (mammals, perhaps). That will only apply to certain attacks: you still can't joint lock something without joints, BUT you MIGHT be able to obtain a similar effect by grabbing a nerve ganglion that effectively causes paralysis.

 

Good luck with that one.

 

Yeah, that was basically what I was thinking. It seems an elegant solution for certain types of campaigns. Not so much for others. I personally would have no problem restricting the use of a number of the MA moves to apply only to the target species the MA was designed for, as this adds in another restriction for MA that could help counterbalance the inherent cost efficiency of martial arts. It's philisophically similar to the defalut campaign assumptions about the Real Weapon limit.

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

I'm pretty sure I saw an 'aliens' comic where either marines or synths were being taught martail arts useable against aliens as a last ditch desperate measure. Knowing the right place to hit and which way the joints bend is really important. Perhaps you could assume that your own species is the basic target group for any martial arts and you need a knowledge skill in the appropriate physiology to use it against other species? Depends how much you want the extra utility to cost and how much realsim you are after.

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

I personally would have no problem restricting the use of a number of the MA moves to apply only to the target species the MA was designed for, as this adds in another restriction for MA that could help counterbalance the inherent cost efficiency of martial arts. It's philisophically similar to the defalut campaign assumptions about the Real Weapon limit.

 

I LIKE this way of thinking. If we assume that Martial Arts has some inherent limits, that balances out the noticeable "cheapness" of it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromeary is still looking for ideas for a quadruped martial art.

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

I'm pretty sure I saw an 'aliens' comic where either marines or synths were being taught martail arts useable against aliens as a last ditch desperate measure. Knowing the right place to hit and which way the joints bend is really important. Perhaps you could assume that your own species is the basic target group for any martial arts and you need a knowledge skill in the appropriate physiology to use it against other species? Depends how much you want the extra utility to cost and how much realsim you are after.

 

I think a physiology skill would be somewhat excessive, consider how many martial artists just know what locations to strike at, but not any of the actual physiology behind it; not how their target's body works, or why certain nerve strikes are so effective.

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

Incidentally, I have read that the Eastern martial arts began because Buddhist monks were pacifists and therefore went unarmed even through wilderness....

 

and needed techniques to defend themselves from wild animals.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary fears attack by the routi

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

Incidentally, I have read that the Eastern martial arts began because Buddhist monks were pacifists and therefore went unarmed even through wilderness....

 

and needed techniques to defend themselves from wild animals.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary fears attack by the routi

 

Whereas I'd read somewhere (unremembered so unattributable) that they were developed in a society which forbade weaponry to peasants (or maybe all non-nobility). It could have been a combination of things, of course - basic, rudimentary MA for use against the critters; evolved and human-specialized against the guys with weapons.

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Re: Martial Arts vs Unusual Opponents

 

Whereas I'd read somewhere (unremembered so unattributable) that they were developed in a society which forbade weaponry to peasants (or maybe all non-nobility). It could have been a combination of things' date=' of course - basic, rudimentary MA for use against the critters; evolved and human-specialized against the guys with weapons.[/quote']

 

What began as techniques for pacifist monks to use against animals may well have been developed, expanded, and refined under the impetus of social conditions in which the lower classes are involuntarily disarmed. Certainly such conditions seem conducive to the development of martial arts.

 

Consider what developed independently in Brazil - a martial art specifically adapted to being used while bound. Also, designed to look like a dance, so that you could train in it right under the masters' noses.

 

And Karate blossomed in Okinawa under the conditions you describe.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Where did the palindromedary go?

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