Is Find Weakness mispriced?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

However' date=' if all we are arguing about is utility and cost then it is just how you apply that looking glass or stop sign. We are not. It is certainly adiscussion point but it is not my central theme. Here is the challenge, a simple one, I’d have thought: give me a sfx justification for find weakness that actually makes sense for the attack or attacks it relates to, using the power presented in the rules. Go on.[/quote']

 

Karnak of the Inhumans, whose special ability is to sense the weak point of any object, often spends time analyzing his opponent before striking to devestating effect. Here we have an unaugmented Inhuman (Karnak was not exposed to the Terrigen Mists - his abilities come solely from training) who can take down the Hulk due to his ability to locate the best place to strike.

 

Karate Kid is shown in at least one old LSH book finding the weakest point in an enlarged diamond in which he is trappped, enabling him to strike there and shatter the diamond.

 

These both sound like examples of Find Weakness to me.

 

BTW, to not sacrifice your first attack due to FW requires you already be in combat range of the target. IME, most FW users are martial artists who move early and fight hand to hand. Such a character must delay his action until he knows who will move in and attack, giving up first strike, or gamble on which character will move in to attack him. he can't FW, move and attack in the same phase.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

For the simple reasons that:

1) AP is figured into active cost, so it's easy to see if it is out of line. You can do the same with FW, but it's not so obvious.

 

True - but isn't that magnifying glass/stop sign suppposed to tip us off that this power may have some balance issues that aren't so obvious?

 

2) it can't drop someone's defences from 40 to (say) 5. An 8d6 AP attack will get some stun through on a 40DEF character' date=' but isn't going to take them down very fast. An 8d6 attack with a good find weakness roll is likely going to put them in hospital in a few hits.[/quote']

 

Assuming a roll of 13- (20 points + 40 points for an 8d6 attack), the character needs three successful FW rolls, which are 83.8% likely, 62.5% likely and 37.5% likely, for a total of 19.64% likely to get to 1/8 defenses. It also takes three rolls, which means three phases.

 

As well, if I'm building a SuperDefense character, which 40 is in a 12DC game, in my eyes, I'll be factoring FW in, so he'll either have some LoW, or I expect the FW guy to shine in this fight. Maybe I'll buy him 5 LoW, only after one successful FW roll, and +5 after 2. That's a pretty minimal investment to make it unlikely his defenses will be quartered and virtually impossible they'll fall lower.

 

What's the rest of the combat doing while all this is going on, by the way? Are the other PC's just standing around while my character uses FW? Is the opposition just standing around? Against a single Big Bad, meant to last a turn or two of combat against the whole team, FW could be devestating if the Big Bad has no defense to deal with it. A 4d6 Ranged DEX Drain will be just as devestating if BB lacks power defense. In three phases (enough to FW 3 times), he's down 14 DEX, which costs him 5 OCV and 5 DCV.

 

3) it works in a way that no other power or modifier does.

 

Making it useful to simulate effects that no other power or modifier does. Whether this is a plus or a minus depends on perspective.

 

I agree it can be unbalancing, but I don't think it's more unbalancing than a lot of other abilities can be. It's got a "look at me" sign to draw the GM's attention. If you have a character who has FW 15-. you should be expecting a lot of reduced defenses if you allow the construct. And the players should be OK with villains who can reduce their defenses similarly.

 

If we eliminated every ability that can be abused, there wouldn't be much left!

[Utech]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

To answer the original question: In my opinion Find Weakness is not mispriced. It is priced just right. It works just fine and is just as open to abuse as every other power in the book.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

For the simple reasons that:

1) AP is figured into active cost, so it's easy to see if it is out of line. You can do the same with FW, but it's not so obvious.

2) it can't drop someone's defences from 40 to (say) 5. An 8d6 AP attack will get some stun through on a 40DEF character, but isn't going to take them down very fast. An 8d6 attack with a good find weakness roll is likely going to put them in hospital in a few hits.

3) it works in a way that no other power or modifier does.

 

Having said that, I don't think FW is being vilified in this thread. It can be unbalancing, but I simply treat it as having a big stop sign next to it.

 

cheers, Mark

Well, some call for its elimination. I am unconvinced, but I could see converting the warning sign to a stop sign.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Not sure a character loses their first attack: FW is a half phase non-attack action. That mans you can do it twice in a phase or FW and then attack in a phase.

 

However, if all we are arguing about is utility and cost then it is just how you apply that looking glass or stop sign. We are not. It is certainly adiscussion point but it is not my central theme. Here is the challenge, a simple one, I’d have thought: give me a sfx justification for find weakness that actually makes sense for the attack or attacks it relates to, using the power presented in the rules. Go on.

 

Now before we go off on that one, I can think of 'some sort of mystical stuff that, y'know, sometimes works and sometimes doesn't', or possibly '...er...chi?', but that is rubbish. It is avoiding sfx not presenting them, and does not fit in with what most advocates seem to see as its niche: the skilled type with the low DC attacks. I'm not suggesting you have to limit your self to that, just that the solution should actually be coherent and not 'it just does'.

I just don't see the mystery or struggle for SFX. Good old fashioned great eyes and keen, quick intellect make for finding a weakness. It's a Batman staple. It's finding that one little power variation in the force field, or findng that the guy moves his nunchukas exactly 27.2 degrees when performing the "unstoppable swirling defense" and that just putting your pinky out at the 27.3 point will fake him out and force him to move it only 27.0 degrees while not endangering oneself.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

...It's finding that one little power variation in the force field...

 

This is a good example of where SFX problems can arise.

 

Say the force field in question was built with full invisible power effects.

 

What SFX explaines how Find Weakness, a special & sensory power, can be used vs. the defenses provided by that force field?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Karnak of the Inhumans, whose special ability is to sense the weak point of any object, often spends time analyzing his opponent before striking to devestating effect. Here we have an unaugmented Inhuman (Karnak was not exposed to the Terrigen Mists - his abilities come solely from training) who can take down the Hulk due to his ability to locate the best place to strike.

 

Karate Kid is shown in at least one old LSH book finding the weakest point in an enlarged diamond in which he is trappped, enabling him to strike there and shatter the diamond.

 

These both sound like examples of Find Weakness to me.

 

BTW, to not sacrifice your first attack due to FW requires you already be in combat range of the target. IME, most FW users are martial artists who move early and fight hand to hand. Such a character must delay his action until he knows who will move in and attack, giving up first strike, or gamble on which character will move in to attack him. he can't FW, move and attack in the same phase.

 

Yes, I know, and SlayMasterfrom the Captain Britain books, IIRC.

 

However, that is not necessecarily 'find weakness', but none of it really explains HOW it works, and even if that is unnecessary (and I have to concede that it is) it does not work in the 'Hero' way, at least not noticeably - Karnak always finds the weak point (Marvel database defines it as an extrasensory ability), which doesn't sound like FW. Karate Kid did it once - ditto.

 

SlayMaster has the ability to see Captain Britain's force field, so he presumably had some sort of enhanced senses (he was a minor psionic talent IIRC and CBs force field is mystical, but we're not all perfect, eh?) and if I recall (and it is a LONG time since I've read the comics) he had to actually LOOK first - good fit - mind you there is no suggestion of this 'multiple dividing' mechanic, and, again, given time, it is something he can just do - it is a sense - if there is a hole in the force field, he'll see it.

 

Mind you, although they are the source material I maintain that comic book characters, int he main, are poor role models as they have usually been written any number of ways by different authors and their abilities are part of a pre-planned story rather than an ongoing game that has no difintie conclusion.

 

Even so, there is nothing int he source material to suggest this odd 'normal/resistant' mechanic, nor the way in which the power works (i.e. I may or not find a weakness today, and if I do, I may not be able to find it tomorrow, variable levels of defence reduction (although to eb fair that is difficult to deduce from the evidence) and...well, see my post above about why I don't think it makes sense.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I just don't see the mystery or struggle for SFX. Good old fashioned great eyes and keen' date=' quick intellect make for finding a weakness. It's a Batman staple. It's finding that one little power variation in the force field, or findng that the guy moves his nunchukas exactly 27.2 degrees when performing the "unstoppable swirling defense" and that just putting your pinky out at the 27.3 point will fake him out and force him to move it only 27.0 degrees while not endangering oneself.[/quote']

 

I don't see Batman as having FW. Yes he is excellent at combat, that's just lots of CV. Yes he knows where to hit, but that's just martial manouveres (I say 'just' - pretty impressive ones, I'll grant you - but I don't see anything that points at him having the FW ability or even really needing it.

 

My argument is NOT that we should not have a FW type ability in the game - it is the implementation. First off it can probably be done with AP or NND. In fact, come to think of it, NND is probably the perfect way to do it in terms of most comic book builds.

 

If we must have it as a power, it should at least be more scalable and make better sense:

 

5 points for the ability to halve all applicable defences on a roll of 11- in a target for this combat for an attack up to 4DC normal, or equivalent.

 

+5 points per +4DCs in the attack

 

+5 points for +1 on the roll (consider part of the power for advantages and limitations)

 

+5 points to allow a second attempt (at a penalty - see below), enabling you to quarter defences

 

+5 points per additional halving of defences possible

 

NORMALLY FW is a half phase non attack action. If you fail a roll you can make another attempt, at the same chance, but it takes a full phase, and a failure will allow another attempt that requires a full turn....go on up the time table fromt ehre for subsequent failures.

 

NORMALLY FW applies to a single attack but:

 

+5 points and it applies to a tight group +10 and it applies to all (appropriate) attacks

 

Not perfect but at least it addresses some of the concerns. As a guideline I'd expect any build built as a 'special sense' to actuall have a special sense too, unless ALL it could do was detect weaknesses in objects. I'd also rule that, for the GM who can be bothered withteh record keeping, a bonus could be applied to find weakness for attempts on other occasions (not subsequent attempts on this occasion) equal to the amount the first roll was made by -1 per time increment that has passed, and a penalty equal of 2 points per failed roll ont he first attempt. Lot of record keeping though.

 

Personally I recoken AP and NND have it about sewn up though, and do so well within the structure of the game:

 

Find weakness: Naked armour piercing advantage on 40 active point power on 11- activation roll 10 points

 

Exploit weakness: Naked NND Does BODY advantage on 30 active point power on 11- activation roll 30 points

 

Job done.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

If we must have it as a power, it should at least be more scalable and make better sense:

 

5 points for the ability to halve all applicable defences on a roll of 11- in a target for this combat for an attack up to 4DC normal, or equivalent.

 

+5 points per +4DCs in the attack

 

Why does it link to the damage done by the attack rather than the defenses reduced?

 

I'd also suggest 4 DC is a pretty broad categorization. If you want it to scale with the power, it should be an advantage.

 

+5 points for +1 on the roll (consider part of the power for advantages and limitations)

 

That seems expensive. Why not give the power a RSR limitation and have the character buy an Analyze Weakness skill?

 

+5 points to allow a second attempt (at a penalty - see below), enabling you to quarter defences

 

+5 points per additional halving of defences possible

 

Is there a reason the base ability should scale with the power of the attack, but the ability to halve again should not?

 

Personally I recoken AP and NND have it about sewn up though, and do so well within the structure of the game:

 

Find weakness: Naked armour piercing advantage on 40 active point power on 11- activation roll 10 points

 

Exploit weakness: Naked NND Does BODY advantage on 30 active point power on 11- activation roll 30 points

 

Job done.

 

Yet both of these will work just fine on invisible defenses. Wasn't one of your primary concerns the lack of logic of this working on otherwise invisible defenses?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

That same 60 AP game can survive an 8d6 AP energy blast, can't it? This also halves the target's defenses but, of course, is doing less dice against those halved defenses.

 

FW means the character loses the first attack to reduce one target's defenses by half, on an 11- roll (62.5%). AP does not require this expenditure of time, and it doesn't require the attacker to choose which target's defenses will be halved. It also works every time. FW's offsetting advantage is a lower cost, and the ability to halve again - also with more time, and more chance of failure.

 

AP is stopped by hardened defenses, and FW is fairly easily nerfed with LoW, so the defense against them seems balanced.

 

So why is FW vilified when no one's worried about AP attacks?

 

One of the fundamental differences between AP and FW is that when I aid an AP EB, I need 7.5 points to get a full damage class, when I aid an EB with FW, I only need 5.

 

Ditto if I push 10 active points. I get 2 dice of EB with FW, but not with an AP EB.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Why does it link to the damage done by the attack rather than the defenses reduced?

 

I'd also suggest 4 DC is a pretty broad categorization. If you want it to scale with the power, it should be an advantage.

 

1. because it is not built as a drain mechanic

 

2. Yes I'd do it as an advantage too, but there are some people, Hugh, who seem to think that the current plan is a good one so I'm trying to be reasonable. Unusually.

 

 

 

That seems expensive. Why not give the power a RSR limitation and have the character buy an Analyze Weakness skill?

 

That's what it costs at the moment and of all the objections and support the cost of +1 has not been an issue.

 

 

 

Is there a reason the base ability should scale with the power of the attack' date=' but the ability to halve again should not? [/quote']

 

Yes: diminishing returns: 30 def halves to 15 points, so you are 15 points better off on the first go, then 8, so you only save seven that time, then 4, so you only save four more...

 

 

 

Yet both of these will work just fine on invisible defenses. Wasn't one of your primary concerns the lack of logic of this working on otherwise invisible defenses?

 

Depends on build: a sonic attack that refines the frequency by feedback from the target wouldn't need to worry about non-visible defences, whereas 'I can SEE the weakness in your armour' WOULD, hence my comment about expecting an appropriate enhanced sense. If that still wouldn't make sense, add in a furhter 'doesn't work against defences you cannot perceive -1' limitation ont he naked advantage (I figure between pd and armour at least half the defences commonly available are non-visible)

[BNakagawa]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

The basic problem with replacing Find Weakness thusly is that FW is meant for a skilled character, that does not do much in the way of damage, to be able to compete with others that do. This being the case, if the character still can't do damage with the targets defense halved, then they can halve it again with FW. Doing it with a RSR AP advantage can only ever half the defenses and no more.

 

I think FW is fine the way it is. It is open to abuse, but that is what the GM is for, to help stop such abuse. If two players come at you looking for you to approve Find Weakness for their respective characters; one with a luck based character that has minor martial arts and 20 strength and another with a 65 Strength Brick, you approve the luck based Martial Artist and tell the brick to hit the gym. This is why Find Weakness has the warning sign on it.

 

JMHO though.

 

Interesting how you sort of contradict yourself there. You claim that FW is meant for skilled characters, then you present as an "acceptable" use of FW a character who relies on luck.

 

FW isn't MEANT for skilled characters. It's meant for characters who want to cut people's defenses into fractions of its former glory. Claiming anything beyond that is reading intent that just isn't there. Mechanics and justifications are not linked in this game system.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

1. because it is not built as a drain mechanic

 

If you're going to rebuild it, why not link it to defenses rather than attack? Maybe a successful roll reduces the target's defenses by 3 for each roll the character succeeded by.

 

2. Yes I'd do it as an advantage too' date=' but there are some people, Hugh, who seem to think that the current plan is a good one so I'm trying to be reasonable. Unusually.[/quote']

 

Well, the current plan also doesn't scale with the power of the attack, does it?

 

That's what it costs at the moment and of all the objections and support the cost of +1 has not been an issue.

 

Under the current model, that +1 to the roll enhances the likelihood of achieving multiple halvings. Under your model, the ability to achieve multiple halvings is purchased separately.

 

Yes: diminishing returns: 30 def halves to 15 points' date=' so you are 15 points better off on the first go, then 8, so you only save seven that time, then 4, so you only save four more...[/quote']

 

This seems again to argue for the cost of the ability scaling to defenses rather than attacks. Besides, most advantages you can purchase multiple times also have the same "diminishing returns" issue. Buying Penetrating twice costs an extra +1/2, but only serves to affect characters with Hardened defenses. A third purchase is another +1/2, and only impacts characters who have double hardened defenses, and so on.

 

Depends on build: a sonic attack that refines the frequency by feedback from the target wouldn't need to worry about non-visible defences' date=' whereas 'I can SEE the weakness in your armour' WOULD, hence my comment about expecting an appropriate enhanced sense. If that still wouldn't make sense, add in a furhter 'doesn't work against defences you cannot perceive -1' limitation ont he naked advantage (I figure between pd and armour at least half the defences commonly available are non-visible)[/quote']

 

What if my Armor is invisible to sound, but fully visible to sight? Remembering that a "visible" power must be detectible by three sense groups, armor that is simply perceptible as metallic skin or scaly hide isn't "Visible", but it's certainly detectable by sight.

 

My concern, Sean, is not that I think your model is inferior to the present model, but that it doesn't improve on it enough to be worth the hassle. The same concerns would still seem to be present.

[pinecone]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I don't see Batman as having FW. Yes he is excellent at combat, that's just lots of CV. Yes he knows where to hit, but that's just martial manouveres (I say 'just' - pretty impressive ones, I'll grant you - but I don't see anything that points at him having the FW ability or even really needing it.

 

My argument is NOT that we should not have a FW type ability in the game - it is the implementation. First off it can probably be done with AP or NND. In fact, come to think of it, NND is probably the perfect way to do it in terms of most comic book builds.

 

If we must have it as a power, it should at least be more scalable and make better sense:

 

5 points for the ability to halve all applicable defences on a roll of 11- in a target for this combat for an attack up to 4DC normal, or equivalent.

 

+5 points per +4DCs in the attack

 

+5 points for +1 on the roll (consider part of the power for advantages and limitations)

 

+5 points to allow a second attempt (at a penalty - see below), enabling you to quarter defences

 

+5 points per additional halving of defences possible

 

NORMALLY FW is a half phase non attack action. If you fail a roll you can make another attempt, at the same chance, but it takes a full phase, and a failure will allow another attempt that requires a full turn....go on up the time table fromt ehre for subsequent failures.

 

NORMALLY FW applies to a single attack but:

 

+5 points and it applies to a tight group +10 and it applies to all (appropriate) attacks

 

Not perfect but at least it addresses some of the concerns. As a guideline I'd expect any build built as a 'special sense' to actuall have a special sense too, unless ALL it could do was detect weaknesses in objects. I'd also rule that, for the GM who can be bothered withteh record keeping, a bonus could be applied to find weakness for attempts on other occasions (not subsequent attempts on this occasion) equal to the amount the first roll was made by -1 per time increment that has passed, and a penalty equal of 2 points per failed roll ont he first attempt. Lot of record keeping though.

 

Personally I recoken AP and NND have it about sewn up though, and do so well within the structure of the game:

 

Find weakness: Naked armour piercing advantage on 40 active point power on 11- activation roll 10 points

 

Exploit weakness: Naked NND Does BODY advantage on 30 active point power on 11- activation roll 30 points

 

Job done.

 

I guess I see Bats as having Find weak...it "explains" why he can struggle vs mooks yet triumph vs supers. Find Weak is next to useless vs low defenses.

This seem "true" to the "hero way" where AP is also most usefull vs huge defenses and not very vs low defenses, Damage reduction works that way too as a defense.

 

At the bottom it come down to flavor, some like strawberry, some like chocolate. It needs the "look out" sign, but not the stop sign.

If you have a game with damage caps then Find weak is a part of offense, and no problem. If you have no caps...well, whats the problem? is 15D6 with find weak worse than STR 120? Why?....the only reason I can see is preferance...i.e. "flavor....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Since we're now talking about possible replacements for Find Weakness why not allow characters to purchase the ability to use Hit Location rules in games that don't normally use them? There is a precidence for this with the Does Knockback advantage.

 

Costing can be done a couple of ways:

1. Flat cost of ~ 10 points (The same as Defense Manuever I-IV)
   
2. Straight Advantage worth (+1/4)

I would favor option 1 since the character would still need to overcome up to a -8 penalty to OCV.

 

For those who think this is just not as effective as Find Weakness you could also allow Critical Hit rules* to be used on targeted shots.

 

*Full damage on the dice for any attack roll made by half of what was needed (or a natural '3'). (example: If 10- is needed to hit a roll of 5- is 'Critical')

 

The beauty of this approach is that if the game already uses Hit Locations and/or critical hits the points that would otherwise have been spent on Find Weakness can just be put towards Penalty CSL's vs. Hit Locations. If nothing else, this makes it easier for GM's to compare a character to others based on the common rules of thumb (CV, DC's, Defenses, Movement, etc...)

[pinecone]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Since we're now talking about possible replacements for Find Weakness why not allow characters to purchase the ability to use Hit Location rules in games that don't normally use them? There is a precidence for this with the Does Knockback advantage.

 

Costing can be done a couple of ways:

1. Flat cost of ~ 10 points (The same as Defense Manuever I-IV)
   
2. Straight Advantage worth (+1/4)

I would favor option 1 since the character would still need to overcome up to a -8 penalty to OCV.

 

For those who think this is just not as effective as Find Weakness you could also allow Critical Hit rules* to be used on targeted shots.

 

*Full damage on the dice for any attack roll made by half of what was needed. (example: If 10- is needed to hit a roll of 5- is 'Critical')

 

I think I proposed much the same way back somewhere...if we agree on something, then you must be a genius....It would provide a differant mechanic for those that don't like Find weak though....

[Markdoc]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

True - but isn't that magnifying glass/stop sign suppposed to tip us off that this power may have some balance issues that aren't so obvious?

 

Yes. It has balance issues. That's thepoint, no? I think as Zornwill suggests that it should have a stop sign rather than a magnifying glass - as I said that's how I treat it.

 

Assuming a roll of 13- (20 points + 40 points for an 8d6 attack)' date=' the character needs three successful FW rolls, which are 83.8% likely, 62.5% likely and 37.5% likely, for a total of 19.64% likely to get to 1/8 defenses. It also takes three rolls, which means three phases.[/quote']

 

Ahhhh ... nope. As already pointed out, it's a sensory power, not an attack power. You can be in there mixing it up, and dropping your opponent's DEF at one and the same time. To take the example you give above, for the same cost as AP on your 8 d6 attack, you got an 84% change of halving your opponent's defence, and a better than even change of reducing it by 75% for the cost of two half phases.

 

Now LoW is cheap - that's one reason FW is still tolerable. But the balalnce is still a little uneasy - against opponents with even a little LoW, FW is near useless. Without LoW, it's highly effective.

 

As I've repeatedly stated, that's not enough for me to kick it out, but it is enough for me to understand why people have problems with it.

 

cheers, Mark

[pinecone]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

When did it stop being an attack action to find weak?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

When did it stop being an attack action to find weak?

 

I just confirmed that it is a rule in 5eR and I don't think it was changed from 5ed. I'll have to look at 4th and earlier tonight at home.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Since we're now talking about possible replacements for Find Weakness why not allow characters to purchase the ability to use Hit Location rules in games that don't normally use them? There is a precidence for this with the Does Knockback advantage.

 

Costing can be done a couple of ways:

1. Flat cost of ~ 10 points (The same as Defense Manuever I-IV)
   
2. Straight Advantage worth (+1/4)

I would favor option 1 since the character would still need to overcome up to a -8 penalty to OCV.

 

For those who think this is just not as effective as Find Weakness you could also allow Critical Hit rules* to be used on targeted shots.

 

*Full damage on the dice for any attack roll made by half of what was needed (or a natural '3'). (example: If 10- is needed to hit a roll of 5- is 'Critical')

 

The beauty of this approach is that if the game already uses Hit Locations and/or critical hits the points that would otherwise have been spent on Find Weakness can just be put towards Penalty CSL's vs. Hit Locations. If nothing else, this makes it easier for GM's to compare a character to others based on the common rules of thumb (CV, DC's, Defenses, Movement, etc...)

 

 

The ugly of this approach is that approach I (the one you like) is a flat cost ability with the possibility of doubling damage. The disconnect between point cost and effect is one of the problems nagging FW in the first place.

 

The other approach is a small advantage that adds to damage. This is a problematic structure (see +1 Stun Modifier) in pretty much all cases due to advantage stacking.

 

Think of an EGO attack with hit locations. Very few opponents are going to have decent enough ECVs to avoid getting 'head' shot with that, if you buy enough levels.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Ahhhh ... nope. As already pointed out' date=' it's a sensory power, not an attack power. You can be in there mixing it up, and dropping your opponent's DEF at one and the same time. To take the example you give above, for the same cost as AP on your 8 d6 attack, you got an 84% change of halving your opponent's defence, and a better than even change of reducing it by 75% for the cost of two half phases.[/quote']

 

But you need to get through those 2 phases (half phase finding weakness and half phase, presumably, taking other combat actions) without moving, being KO'd yourself or changing opponents. It's not automatic that you'll get to roll twice against the same target.

 

Knockback, for example, means you have some choices to make - and if you've been knocked back any distance, your FW roll now suffers range penalties. If your opponent keeps moving, you need to move to keep up or stand there and stare at him to FW - if you move and FW, no attack.

 

Using average to high defenses of 25 in a 60 AP standard supers game, assuming FW always works and attacks never miss, and squaring two opponents off, one against the other, let's assume a 12d6 attack and an 8d6 attack with FW 13-:

 

first phase, 12d6 does 42 - 25 = 17

8d6 does 28 - 13 = 15 damage

 

second phase, 12d6 does 42-25 = 17

8d6 does 28 - 7 = 21 damage

 

third phase, 12d6 does 42-25=17

8d6 does 28 - 4 = 24 damage

 

But miss that first or second roll, and our FW character is at a disadvantage, as his opponent will inflict more damage per hit.

 

If that "no FW" character uses his half phases to move around and blast (assuming ranged attacks), FW must sacrifice either his FW attempt, his attack or keeping up. Let that 12d6 character get a couple of unanswered hits in, and it will take time to catch up - time our FW character may find is in short supply.

 

I'm not denying there can be balance problems, but I have a tough time seeing them as any more serious than any number of other possible balance issues.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

FW is an inherently invisible power effect power.

 

You can use it before the fight starts to get the drop on people.

 

You could put invisibility in a multipower with your attacks and hang out before the fight starts and FW to your heart's content.

 

You could put shrinking in a multipower with your attacks and do the same thing.

 

You could put shapeshifting ...

 

You could put darkness (with personal immunity)...

 

You could buy mondo range mod PSLs and FW enemies before you close to combat range. Or before they know the fight's about to start...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

The ugly of this approach is that approach I (the one you like) is a flat cost ability with the possibility of doubling damage. The disconnect between point cost and effect is one of the problems nagging FW in the first place.

 

The other approach is a small advantage that adds to damage. This is a problematic structure (see +1 Stun Modifier) in pretty much all cases due to advantage stacking.

 

Think of an EGO attack with hit locations. Very few opponents are going to have decent enough ECVs to avoid getting 'head' shot with that, if you buy enough levels.

 

Well, the disconnect is not as complete as it is with Find Weakness.

 

Characters lacking specific Penalty CSL's vs. Hit Locations with this ability will be faced with a decision of better chance to hit vs. better chance to do more damage IF they hit. As a result, some targeted attacks will miss that would have otherwise hit. A target dodging might be enough to force a miss, etc.. . This reinforces DCV's role as THE primary defense mechanism in HERO and avoids the combination of Find Weakness with attacks built with AOE 1 Hex (Accurate) since by default, Targeted Hit Locations can't be combined with AOE attacks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

FW is an inherently invisible power effect power.

 

You can use it before the fight starts to get the drop on people.

 

You could put invisibility in a multipower with your attacks and hang out before the fight starts and FW to your heart's content.

 

You could put shrinking in a multipower with your attacks and do the same thing.

 

You could put shapeshifting ...

 

You could put darkness (with personal immunity)...

 

You could buy mondo range mod PSLs and FW enemies before you close to combat range. Or before they know the fight's about to start...

 

You forgot Tunnelling combined with N-Ray Vision and Range PSL's.

 

You can be invisible, shrunken, shapeshifted, or Darkness and use mental powers. You can be hundreds of miles away and, as long as you have Telescopic Vision (or mind scan), snipe away very effectively.

 

Do you allow mentalists to use these very effective tactics? Do you ban mental powers outright? Find Weakness is no different - the fact it can be abused does not mean it cannot be used without being abusive.

 

Is it underpriced? That was the question posed at the start of the thread.

[Mister E]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I could see converting the warning sign to a stop sign.

Strong words!