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Is Find Weakness mispriced?


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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I think it is interesting that people are working on different ways to create a Find Weaknessish power. I'm of the opinion that Find Weakness works just fine as it is, but obviously others disagree.

 

A couple of thoughts:

1) I've noticed a lot of negative posts regarding some of the tools in our tool kit simply because they work differently from other tools. I can't understand this at all. I think it is great that there are different kinds of mechanics in HERO. More choices. More tools. More ways to build just what you want to build.

 

Tossing out the Phillips head screwdriver because it doesn't match your collection of flat head screwdrivers seems like a bad idea to me. There are definitely some odd tools in the HERO tool kit -- Find Weakness is one -- but I think they're all balanced and bring added value to the tool kit as a whole.

 

2) The sfx for Find Weakness can be anything you want them to be! Whatever they are, they help you find weaknesses in defenses. The sfx can be:

  • I'm smart!
  • cosmic awareness
  • weaknesses just love me -- they throw themselves at me!
  • I see weakness just like I see color (Force Fields generated by plasma force generators show up as "red", natural PD defenses for rocky characters show up as "pink", etc)
  • I hear weaknesses just like I hear sounds (Armor defined as a bunch of steel plates sounds like a "violin", Density Increase bonus defenses sound like a "trumpet", etc)
  • I can't explain how I know where to hit people, I just do. Hey, do I ask you how you know how to target your Ego Blast? Frankly, it's a mystery how I sometimes find weaknesses in the people and objects I study -- but I sure am glad it works!

The sfx for Find Weakness help you tell a story and make your game fun. They may not be "realistic". Great! I find very little realistic about most HERO games -- the departure from what's real is very attractive to me. Wizards producing lightning from their fingertips? Cool! Super guys who can fly because they were bitten by a radioactive swan? Why not? Hard as nails PIs who talk information out of cocktail waitresses, jazz song birds, and the shoe shine boy all in a single day? Fun!

 

As a GM, I don't demand that sfx be realistic. I want them to have enough internal logic to support the character, provide me with plot hooks, and entertain everyone involved. Cold fusion doesn't work in reality, but it works just great in my superhero games.

 

3) Find Weakness can be abused. So can every skill, power, talent, characteristic, advantage, limitation... Players and GMs work together to prevent abuse and correct it when it crops up unexpectedly.

 

When Find Weakness is not abused it works just great.

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

A 4- activation roll is practically useless. Maybe we should start at' date=' say, 8- for the cost of 5 points and work our way up from there.[/quote']

I'm not opposed to that. But now you are reducing choices. Is that what you want to do? (8^D)

 

It doesn't hurt anything to have it start at 4-, does it?

It's just a starting point, just like 8-, but 4- allows for more exotic SFX.

 

But as I said, I'm not opposed to it starting at 8-, I just don't see any additional benefit in doing so. Although 8- is consistent with skills, Talents aren't skills and don't follow the rules for construction of skills anyway.

 

If I pay on a linear basis to add defenses reduced' date=' why do they fade geometrically? Why does it halve for each successful attack made? Is the weak point getting toughened up?[/quote']

If I pay 3/5/10/15 Points per 1d6 effect for an Adjustment Power, why does it fade at 5 Points instead of 3/5/10/15 Points, or better why doesn't it fade at xd6 each turn?

Why does the normal Find Weakness halve the target's defenses instead of subtracting a set amount?

Why does the normal Find Weakness halve the target's defenses with each successful roll? Is the weakness growing larger on the target each time and why? If so, then when a roll fails, why did the weakness stop growing?

 

These are just as valid as your questions, but even if we had the answers, would it make any difference if we agreed or disagreed on them.

 

I don't see anything constructive from these questions.

 

If there is to be a time-based fade rate' date=' it seems reasonable it should be possible to buy that time increment up. Perhaps the base rule should be a fade rate each turn, and it can be bought up.[/quote']

Did the description say that applicable modifiers wouldn't apply? (8^D)

Yes, your logic makes sense and I had it in mind as a possible modifier that could extend/reduce the effect time, but I wanted some comments on the current definitions I've defined before I started fleshing things out more. If the concept itself it bad, no need to continue fleshing it out.

 

Does a failed roll take away the results of previous successful rolls? What does a failed roll mean to the ability to roll again to stop/reverse the fade rate?

Well, I guess I wasn't clear when I said, "If the additional activation failed, the effect continues to degrade as normal, and then the rules for a failed attempt is applied."

The effect continues to degrade as normal = a failed roll doesn't change anything on a prior successful roll's effect. Subsequent successful rolls simply maintain/restore the full effect of a previous successful roll.

Does this explain it better. If so, I'll change the wording to match.

 

Looks like this removes the ability to enhance the result by achieving more than one success. How would one purchase the ability to enhance the effect by succeeding multiple times?

See this post.

 

Overall' date=' I think I prefer Sean's approach. Mind you, I have no major issues with FW as it stands either, so I don't see a great deal of point changing it.[/quote']

Well, you were one of the people who inspired me to create this construct. You were the one who mentioned the character retaining the knowledge of the weakness and having memory affect that.

 

- Christopher Mullins

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Does this explain it better. If so' date=' I'll change the wording to match.[/quote']

 

I agree that, if it's not an extensive rewrite, editing the original post would be preferable to making another post. Still, in the same spirit as linking to the most recent rewrite in the original post, I suggest color-coding the new text (perhaps hiding the old text in a spoiler tag so it can be skipped over when reading).

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I agree that' date=' if it's not an extensive rewrite, editing the original post would be preferable to making another post. Still, in the same spirit as linking to the most recent rewrite in the original post, I suggest color-coding the new text (perhaps hiding the old text in a spoiler tag so it can be skipped over when reading).[/quote']

Hey, that's a nifty idea, why didn't I think of that. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Version 1

 

Hmmmm...

 

Some of the comments have inspired me about a completely different structure and ruleset for this... (8^D)

 

Rough Draft for the concepts (in other words... don't bug me about costs! (8^D))

 

Initial Purchase of Find Weakness (4- Activation)

Each additional purchase/level increases Activation by one.

 

Base level with one attack and only useful for the character who purchased it.

 

Guidelines

First attempt at Find Weakness on a target's defenses (Base Roll Purchased)...

 

If Attempt Succeded:

Character has found a weakness in the target's defenses and may use his attack to take full advantage of that weakness. The character retains this advantage in subsequent phases until the end of the turn. At the end of the Turn the effect of Find Weakness Halves (Half Effect) for each successful attack made. At One Minute after a successful Find Weakness activation, the effect is halved again. At Five Minutes the effect is halved, and so forth. Once the effect reaches 1 Reduction the next time increment reduces the effect to zero. The character may make additional Find Weakness rolls at any time to maintain/restore the Full Effect of Find Weakness. If the additional activation was successful the maintained/restored. If the additional activation failed, the effect continues to degrade as normal, and then the rules for a failed attempt is applied.

 

If Attempt Failed:

Character has failed to find a weakness in the target's defenses and gains no advantage. Character must wait until the end of the Turn in order to make another attempt again, but with a penalty (-2 Per Failed Attempt). If the second attempt failed then the character must wait 1 Minute before another attempt is made, and so forth.

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Version 2

 

Rough Draft for the concepts (in other words... don't bug me about costs! (8^D))

 

Initial Purchase of Find Weakness (4- Activation) [Reduces Target's Defenses by 1]

Activation Level may be increased by paying extra.

Reduction Level may be increased by paying extra.

 

Base Level is with one attack and only applies to the character who purchased it.

 

Guidelines

First attempt at Find Weakness on a target's defenses (Base Roll Purchased)...

 

If Attempt Succeded:

Character has found a weakness in the target's defenses and may use his attack to take full advantage of that weakness. The character retains this advantage in subsequent phases until the end of the turn. At the end of the Turn the effect of Find Weakness Halves (Half Effect) for each successful attack made. At One Minute after a successful Find Weakness activation, the effect is halved again. At Five Minutes the effect is halved, and so forth. Once the effect reaches 1 Reduction the next time increment reduces the effect to zero. The character may make additional Find Weakness rolls at any time to maintain/restore the Full Effect of Find Weakness. If the additional activation was successful the maintained/restored. If the additional activation failed, the effect continues to degrade as normal, and then the rules for a failed attempt is applied.

 

If Attempt Failed:

Character has failed to find a weakness in the target's defenses and gains no advantage. Character must wait until the end of the Turn in order to make another attempt again, but with a penalty (-2 Per Failed Attempt). If the second attempt failed then the character must wait 1 Minute before another attempt is made, and so forth.

 

Thoughts?

 

Addendum: I've changed it to be more clear. Hope this helps.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Version 3

Rough Draft for the concepts (in other words... don't bug me about costs! (8^D))

 

Initial Purchase of Find Weakness (4- Activation) [Reduces Target's Defenses by 1]

Activation Level may be increased by paying extra.

Reduction Level may be increased by paying extra.

 

Base Level is with one attack and only applies to the character who purchased it.

 

Guidelines

First attempt at Find Weakness on a target's defenses (Base Roll Purchased)...

 

If Attempt Succeded:

Character has found a weakness in the target's defenses and may use his attack to take full advantage of that weakness. The character retains this advantage in subsequent phases until the end of the turn. At the end of the Turn the effect of Find Weakness Halves (Half Effect) for each successful attack made. At One Minute after a successful Find Weakness activation, the effect is halved again. At Five Minutes the effect is halved, and so forth. Once the effect reaches 1 Reduction the next time increment reduces the effect to zero. The character may make additional Find Weakness rolls at any time to maintain/restore the Full Effect of Find Weakness. If the additional activation was successful the maintained/restored. If the additional activation failed, it does not change any prior successful roll's effect, however, the rules for a failed attempt are applied as described below.

 

If Attempt Failed:

Character has failed to find a weakness in the target's defenses and gains no advantage. Character must wait until the end of the Turn in order to make another attempt again, but with a penalty (-2 Per Failed Attempt). If the second attempt failed then the character must wait 1 Minute before another attempt is made, and so forth.

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Hey' date=' that's a nifty idea, why didn't I think of that. (8^D)[/quote']

 

I will add, having seen what you did, that what I had in mind was editing an original post but hiding the replaced text in a spoiler tag instead of removing it entirely.

 

However, having seen what you did, I like your interpretation much better :thumbup:

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Where in the fifth edition rulebook is this mentioned? As I just looked through the rules, and found it no where in the description for the FW ability. In my opinion, if it is not in the rulebook it does not exist. If it is a supplement, it exists, but only as an optional rule, not as cannon.

 

.

 

Calm. This topic seems to be upsetting people, which is a shame.

 

5ER says, and I quote...(fromt he FW power description, under 'Types Of Defence Affected')

 

When a character decides to use Find Weakness, he must chose one of the types of defence he wants to Find Weakness in:

 

1. normal

2. resistant

3. exotic

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I thought you wanted more choices. Why would you then set the starting activation roll at such a high level' date=' precluding an 11-. or even 8-, base roll? Perhaps we should start with no activation roll, and apply the limitation "activation roll" as normal, but that means the base power could be used an unlimited number of times.[/quote']

 

You suggested building it as a way of reducing defences, I was just trying to oblige. it started off as a specific example, but then I got carried away and tried to make it more generic. I'm not trying to suggest it is a particularly cunning way of doing it, - it was presented as a discussion topic, hopefully to draw in some suggestions. I agree it would be best to start with a lower activation roll, although that really will make very little difference to the cost.

 

Can I buy this for "all pistols" or "all bladed weapons"? How?

 

Well - and I'm making this up - as Christopher sugegsted, or just decide what level you want it at: if you think 'all pistols' is too much for the base ability, move the cost up a little. Depends how much you know about pistols. I don;t know much.

 

 

 

Is it permissable to attempt twice in a phase against the same targets? Against different targets?

 

As written, yes and yes. if you think that is too beefy we can change it.

 

 

 

How long do they last? Does my Eidetic Memory character remember the weaknesses from prior encounters?

 

If you can be bothered with the paperwork and record keeping I would have no problem with 'remembering' both successes and failures indefinitely.

 

 

 

Should there be guidance for when such a repeat attempt is permitted? For greater choice' date=' perhaps the default should be 24 hours, but you may use the "reduced repeat rate" advantage available for Healing.[/quote']

 

I think that is a good idea and fits in well with it being built ona an adjustment mechanic.

 

 

 

That seems rather arbitrary. 10 points is huge in a typical Fantasy game' date=' and much lower powered in a high end Supers game. Maybe it should be a Cuation Sign power and leave it at that.[/quote']

 

Completely arbitrary :D

 

 

 

Why does it reduce normal defenses first? This makes it less useful for' date=' say, an assassin. Again, you wanted more choice, didn't you?[/quote']

 

The 'logic' was that we were using an average costing, so it made some sense to remove the cheaper stuff first, but alternating points may be fairer yet.

 

 

 

Can I define an Unusual sense, making it less likely I will be denied access to this power? Perhaps the cost should vary with the likeliness the Sense will readily be taken away, but then the character has paid extra points to have an unusual sense. Maybe the rule should be it MUST be targetting to avoid smell-based FW ("It says usually").

 

 

I see no problem with making an unusual sense the 'sense link' - as you say that has its own in built cost. i used 'usually' because I can imagine some concepts that might not require a targetting sense (like listening for resonant frequencies: would require heariong but not necessarily targetting). Unless you can justify it otherewise though, I'd expect it to use a targetting sense.

 

A lot of this has been superceded in the discussion, but I've been away for a couple of days and things have progressed but I thought you deserved an answer

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Preach it.

 

I think it is interesting that people are working on different ways to create a Find Weaknessish power. I'm of the opinion that Find Weakness works just fine as it is, but obviously others disagree.

 

A couple of thoughts:

1) I've noticed a lot of negative posts regarding some of the tools in our tool kit simply because they work differently from other tools. I can't understand this at all. I think it is great that there are different kinds of mechanics in HERO. More choices. More tools. More ways to build just what you want to build.

 

Tossing out the Phillips head screwdriver because it doesn't match your collection of flat head screwdrivers seems like a bad idea to me. There are definitely some odd tools in the HERO tool kit -- Find Weakness is one -- but I think they're all balanced and bring added value to the tool kit as a whole.

 

2) The sfx for Find Weakness can be anything you want them to be! Whatever they are, they help you find weaknesses in defenses. The sfx can be:

  • I'm smart!
  • cosmic awareness
  • weaknesses just love me -- they throw themselves at me!
  • I see weakness just like I see color (Force Fields generated by plasma force generators show up as "red", natural PD defenses for rocky characters show up as "pink", etc)
  • I hear weaknesses just like I hear sounds (Armor defined as a bunch of steel plates sounds like a "violin", Density Increase bonus defenses sound like a "trumpet", etc)
  • I can't explain how I know where to hit people, I just do. Hey, do I ask you how you know how to target your Ego Blast? Frankly, it's a mystery how I sometimes find weaknesses in the people and objects I study -- but I sure am glad it works!

The sfx for Find Weakness help you tell a story and make your game fun. They may not be "realistic". Great! I find very little realistic about most HERO games -- the departure from what's real is very attractive to me. Wizards producing lightning from their fingertips? Cool! Super guys who can fly because they were bitten by a radioactive swan? Why not? Hard as nails PIs who talk information out of cocktail waitresses, jazz song birds, and the shoe shine boy all in a single day? Fun!

 

As a GM, I don't demand that sfx be realistic. I want them to have enough internal logic to support the character, provide me with plot hooks, and entertain everyone involved. Cold fusion doesn't work in reality, but it works just great in my superhero games.

 

3) Find Weakness can be abused. So can every skill, power, talent, characteristic, advantage, limitation... Players and GMs work together to prevent abuse and correct it when it crops up unexpectedly.

 

When Find Weakness is not abused it works just great.

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Calm. This topic seems to be upsetting people, which is a shame.

 

5ER says, and I quote...(fromt he FW power description, under 'Types Of Defence Affected')

 

When a character decides to use Find Weakness, he must chose one of the types of defence he wants to Find Weakness in:

 

1. normal

2. resistant

3. exotic

 

Sean, I have been nothing but calm in this debate. This post has in fact been the ONLY one that has got me in even the tiniest bit upset, and that could be just a problem with version type maybe, though I doubt it.

 

I just relooked in the 5th Edition book though, and unless you have a different edition of 5th edition, this is incorrect. It does not say what you are claiming is said anywhere in the description for Find Weakness. Here is the only pieces of text I can see that MIGHT be misinterpreted to say this.

 

First paragraph, "a character with this Power may reduce his target's apprpriate defense". Appropriate defense in this case is related to the power Find Weakness is working with. If it is a physical killing attack then it is rPD, if it is a mental attack then MD, if it is a normal energy attack then it is ED. Again, no need to specify defense, as it is dictated by the power used.

 

Second to the last paragraph, "Weaknesses may be found in all types of defenses, including Force Fields or Force Walls." It is just specifying that it can work against all defensive types. Again this would be appropriate to the attack used.

 

Now I got my rulebook like the day 5th edition was put out, so it is possible, though unlikely that this power was changed. Even if it was changed though, the choice would still be dependent upon the attack used. For instance if the attack used was a simple punch than it would be stupid to pick an exotic defense or resistant defenses, so even IF this was changed in a reprinting, it is meaningless.

 

Peace be with you Sean, I am not angry or anything with you, just debating an issue I think has been misinterpretted. In fact I am not sure what in the quoted text made you think I was upset.

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

If I pay 3/5/10/15 Points per 1d6 effect for an Adjustment Power' date=' why does it fade at 5 Points instead of 3/5/10/15 Points, or better why doesn't it fade at xd6 each turn?[/quote']

 

Regardless of the cost of each 1d6 effect, the power gain or loss always fades at 5 points per turn. It does not vary with the number of points affected. Although the time increment can vary, that creates an extra cost for the attack. When I inflict STUN (BOD) on an opponent, her gets back his REC each recovery (month; or regen points each turn). His rate of recovery does not vary depending on how much STUN (BOD) was inflicted. It does not recover based on the total effect you have achieved to date, such that a character who has taken more damage recovers more damage at the next time increment.

 

Under your construct, the more I reduce the target's defenses, the faster they come back. I am suggesting that, as with every other effect, the recovery rate should be fixed, not variable

 

Why does the normal Find Weakness halve the target's defenses instead of subtracting a set amount?

 

Because, under the current FW definition, the weak point is half as defended as the norm for the target. Just as, under your system, the weak point is precisely X defense (based on what I pay for) less than the norm. Note that FW amkes it impossible for me to find a completely undefended location, where your construct does allow for this possibility.

 

Why does the normal Find Weakness halve the target's defenses with each successful roll? Is the weakness growing larger on the target each time and why? If so' date=' then when a roll fails, why did the weakness stop growing?[/quote']

 

To me, the premise here is that the character has, with each subsequent roll, located the weakest part of the weak part previously located. When a roll fails, the character is unable to discern any further area which is less defended.

 

The FW/LoW mechanic presupposes that, although defenses are normally generic, there are by default weak points. Characters with FW have an ability to locate those weak points. Characters with LoW have weak points that are more difficult to locate.

 

Under your system, there is an automatic recovery. What does this simulate or presuppose is the default state of these weaknesses? Is the location in question losing its weakness (becoming calloused from repeated strikes)? Does the character gradually forget the best location to strike, needing to spend some time to find it again?

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I don't know how you can claim something that is priced arbitrarily to be balanced.

 

Its effects are completely unrelated to its costs.

 

In a low powered game, it is entirely overpriced.

In a high powered game, it is entirely underpriced.

In a superhero game, it is prone to abuse.

 

In essence, its proponents are saying it is not unbalancing provided nobody is allowed to use it optimally.

 

These are not the characteristics of a well-priced, well-designed game mechanic.

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I just relooked in the 5th Edition book though' date=' and unless you have a different edition of 5th edition, this is a lie.[/quote']

 

Sort of. Edition and a half? He did say "5ER".

 

I got my rulebook like the day 5th edition was put out

 

You probably, then, have the book known as "FRED", usually used to refer to the 2001 edition which had ~390 pages. Christopher was quoting from the 2004 Revised Edition, which has ~590 pages.

 

it is possible' date=' though unlikely that this power was changed. Even if it was changed though, the choice would still be dependent upon the attack used. For instance if the attack used was a simple punch than it would be stupid to pick an exotic defense or resistant defenses, so even IF this was changed in a reprinting, it is meaningless.[/quote']

 

I don't think ~200 pages (over half the length of the original 5th Edition book!) made only "meaningless" changes.

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

The Unusual Sense Group: The Unusual Sense Group

includes the following Senses: Active Sonar, Clairsentience,

Detect, Find Weakness, High Range Radio Perception,

Infrared Perception, N-Ray Perception, Radar, Radio

Perception/Transmission, Spatial Awareness, Sensory

Talents, Ultraviolet Perception, Ultrasonic Perception.

Question: Does the Does Not Apply Against Certain Types

Of Defenses Limitation mean “types” as in the Powers used to

build them, or “types” as in the special effects involved?

Answer: It could be based on either, depending on the

nature of the powers involved, special effects, common sense,

and dramatic sense. Typically it’s more of a special effectsbased

thing, but it doesn’t have to be. It would not be legal to

define the unaffected defense as something the power

inherently cannot effect (like ED for STR).

Question: When a character uses Find Weakness, does he

halve all of the target’s defenses, or just specific ones?

Answer: Find Weakness works similarly to its counterpart, Lack Of Weakness. When a character decides to Find Weakness, he must choose which of these types of defenses he wants to Find Weakness in:

1. The target’s Normal Defenses (PD or ED, including Damage Resistance).

2. The target’s Resistant Defenses (such as Armor or Force Field). However, Find Weakness has no effect on Damage Reduction unless the GM specifically permits this.

3. At the GM’s discretion, any one of the target’s exotic defenses (such as Mental Defense and Power Defense).

Generally speaking, most special effects of Find Weakness probably have no effect whatsoever on Flash, Mental, or Power Defense (a -0 Limitation); if a character wants to affect those defenses, typically he should buy Find Weakness with the Does Not Apply Against Certain Types Of Defenses Limitation to make it only apply against that one type of exotic defense. The character can switch what he wants to apply his Find Weakness to from Phase to Phase.

For example, one Phase he could Find Weakness in the target’s Resistant Defenses; the next he could Find Weakness in the same target’s Normal Defenses. But he can only locate the weaknesses in one type of defenses at a time. Even if the character switches from defense type to defense type, the standard -2 per additional roll penalty applies. So, for example, if a character Finds Weakness twice in a target’s Resistant Defenses, and then wants to halve his Normal Defenses, the roll for halving the Normal Defenses would be at -4 (since it’s the third Find Weakness roll made against the target).

As always, you should take into account special effects, common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance. There may be situations where the GM’s willing to expand the effects of Find Weakness a little, or times when he considers it necessary to reduce them.

Does this help?

 

- Christopher Mullins

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I'll admit, I haven't read all 15 pages of this, so apologies if I reiterate points others have brought up.

 

I don't think that Find Weakness is overpriced by any means. However, I don't think it's underpriced either... not when you consider that it's a caution power. I'm using FRED, mind, but I've read the description from 5ER. Factors to consider:

 

If the character is making his FW roll at range, he suffers range penalties for it. If he is making them in melee... he's standing right next to the rampaging brick or other super doing nothing else for a phase.

 

Most characters I know would take that phase to introduce your jaw to their fist. And you still might flub the activation roll. And having to split what defenses you go against *really* ends up hurting it, in this case.

 

Hypothetical Situation:

 

Martial Artist X uses a 15- Find Weakness against Brick A, with resistant defenses in the 15/15r range. Now, he declares Normal Defenses, since he intends to use his punch.

 

He does this while standing next to Brick A, to avoid running into any of the range penalties. Brick A's non-res defenses are now at 8 (heck, let's give him 7.)

 

Now, we're assuming that Brick A didn't have a phase yet.

 

For spending that 30 points, our Martial Artist just gained the ability to do an extra 8 points of damage against the Brick with one maneuver. Even if we *don't* make him split his focus over different types of defenses, then he's gotten an extra 15 points of damage per attack.

 

Now, give him the 15- ACT roll, and that's the equivalent of buying AP as a naked modifier for a... 75 active point power. Only he doesn't necessarily have a 75 active point power. But let's say he does have it. Now, he can make his next activation roll, and gain the benefit of cutting out another... 8 defenses. But that wastes another Phase for that benefit, and by now there's a reasonable chance that our Brick has had an attack... and quite possibly drop kicked the little runt into the next county. But let's say he misses. Our MA makes his next roll, and cuts out another whole 4 points of defenses. At this point, he's below an 11- - and that's assuming the Brick doesn't have *any* LoW. My rule of thumb? Every Brick can justify Lack of Weakness - that's why you're a brick!

 

Now, let's say he *had* a 15d6 attack to hit the guy with. Average damage: 52.5 Stun. Up against 30 DEF, that's an average of 22.5 Stun.

 

Now, having spent 3 phases finding the chinks in the brick's armor, he's got him down to 3 DEF, and that's ignoring the actual current rules for FW (with them, at best, he's removed . He hits him... and barely manages to beat doubling his average damage. He can continue to do this for the rest of his phases, granted, but let's say that he drops the brick in 2 hits. Fairly even odds of that.

 

Now he has to start all over again on the next opponent.

 

And let's say that the Brick, like most bricks should, has, oh, 10 points of LoW. 5 in Resistant. 5 in Non-Resistant.

 

If the MA manages to make all his rolls, that means he made a 10-, and 8-, and a 6-. He *deserves* to slaughter the brick if he pulls that off, I think.

 

And eventually, somebody's going to paste him while he's blowing phases on LoW. As soon as that happens, he's going to find out that he probably would have been better off just buying 30 points of extra DC's, when you consider what that punch will probably do to him.

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I think it is interesting that people are working on different ways to create a Find Weaknessish power. I'm of the opinion that Find Weakness works just fine as it is, but obviously others disagree.

 

A couple of thoughts:

1) I've noticed a lot of negative posts regarding some of the tools in our tool kit simply because they work differently from other tools. I can't understand this at all. I think it is great that there are different kinds of mechanics in HERO. More choices. More tools. More ways to build just what you want to build.

 

Tossing out the Phillips head screwdriver because it doesn't match your collection of flat head screwdrivers seems like a bad idea to me. There are definitely some odd tools in the HERO tool kit -- Find Weakness is one -- but I think they're all balanced and bring added value to the tool kit as a whole.

 

My personal reason for deconstructing and reconstructing the power is that it makes a power more consistent with the rest of the system, and helps me to understand what it does and how it does it. I think there are enough negative comments about FW in practice that this is not an unreasonable thing to do. We may come to a better understanding of the power as is, or find an alternative way to do it.

 

To be quite clear I don't like the power as presented, and so it is not going to get used as a tool very much in my tool box. I know people who do like it because it is so effective, and perhaps - if i can see it in the context of a logical build - I can understand that POV. We're not editing the book here, just commenting on it.

 

I am also not someone who belives that more tools=more choice, necessarily. The idea is that you start with a concept and then build it with what you have. Can you build someone who has a relatively weak attack and yet can damage relatively well defended targets without using FW? Well clearly you can, so I do not see how your choice is resticted if this particular tool is taken away. Indeed having a particular tool can restrict choice because there is a natural inclination to use a tool when it appears to be what you want. A deep understanding of that tool will let us decide when it is appropriate to use it and when it is not. If nothing else this thread has raised several suggestions for alternative approaches to the same problem, and I think that is a good thing.

 

2) The sfx for Find Weakness can be anything you want them to be! Whatever they are, they help you find weaknesses in defenses. The sfx can be:

  • I'm smart!
  • cosmic awareness
  • weaknesses just love me -- they throw themselves at me!
  • I see weakness just like I see color (Force Fields generated by plasma force generators show up as "red", natural PD defenses for rocky characters show up as "pink", etc)
  • I hear weaknesses just like I hear sounds (Armor defined as a bunch of steel plates sounds like a "violin", Density Increase bonus defenses sound like a "trumpet", etc)
  • I can't explain how I know where to hit people, I just do. Hey, do I ask you how you know how to target your Ego Blast? Frankly, it's a mystery how I sometimes find weaknesses in the people and objects I study -- but I sure am glad it works!

The sfx for Find Weakness help you tell a story and make your game fun. They may not be "realistic". Great! I find very little realistic about most HERO games -- the departure from what's real is very attractive to me. Wizards producing lightning from their fingertips? Cool! Super guys who can fly because they were bitten by a radioactive swan? Why not? Hard as nails PIs who talk information out of cocktail waitresses, jazz song birds, and the shoe shine boy all in a single day? Fun!

 

As a GM, I don't demand that sfx be realistic. I want them to have enough internal logic to support the character, provide me with plot hooks, and entertain everyone involved. Cold fusion doesn't work in reality, but it works just great in my superhero games.

 

I strongly agree with that last paragraph, and the most important bit in many cases is the internal logic - the rest tends to flow from that. As a GM I have to understand how a power is conceived as working if I am to be less than arbitrary in making decisions about how it works in practice (i.e. in game).

 

Now all your sfx are fine, although I'd point out that FW is a sensory power, which means that several of the sfx you suggested do not do a great deal to define the power fully. That's fine, so long as the player understands that if they don't fully define the power, then the GM probably will. Being smart enables you to determine where weaknesses are, but you still need to make observations, so I would assume that you need to be able to use your normal sight, absent any other enhanced sense. Also if you are INT drained, you will not be able to use it. Weaknesses loving you is, well, a bit weak, really, but fine, if that is what you want. That and 'I can't explain it' are simply abrogating responsibility to the GM IMO. The GM can then decide how it really works and what advantages and limtiations that might bring with it. The cosmic awareness and other 'sense' explanations are fine, so long as you have those senses and they are currently available.

 

What I don't like to see with sfx is some sort of 'it works in all situations and all circumstances, and there is nothing you can do about it, nah nah, oh and the sfx only give me advantages, not limtiations' type approach. I don't think any of your suggestions do that

 

3) Find Weakness can be abused. So can every skill, power, talent, characteristic, advantage, limitation... Players and GMs work together to prevent abuse and correct it when it crops up unexpectedly.

 

When Find Weakness is not abused it works just great.

 

I think if we have a better understanding of how it works, how it can be abused and how we can do something about that without upsetting the player or the game, then everyone will be better off. These boards are excellent for that sort of thing.

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Sean, I have been nothing but calm in this debate. This post has in fact been the ONLY one that has got me in even the tiniest bit upset, and that could be just a problem with version type maybe, though I doubt it.

 

I just relooked in the 5th Edition book though, and unless you have a different edition of 5th edition, this is a lie. It does not say what you are claiming is said anywhere in the description for Find Weakness. Here is the only pieces of text I can see that MIGHT be misinterpreted to say this.

 

First paragraph, "a character with this Power may reduce his target's apprpriate defense". Appropriate defense in this case is related to the power Find Weakness is working with. If it is a physical killing attack then it is rPD, if it is a mental attack then MD, if it is a normal energy attack then it is ED. Again, no need to specify defense, as it is dictated by the power used.

 

Second to the last paragraph, "Weaknesses may be found in all types of defenses, including Force Fields or Force Walls." It is just specifying that it can work against all defensive types. Again this would be appropriate to the attack used.

 

Now I got my rulebook like the day 5th edition was put out, so it is possible, though unlikely that this power was changed. Even if it was changed though, the choice would still be dependent upon the attack used. For instance if the attack used was a simple punch than it would be stupid to pick an exotic defense or resistant defenses, so even IF this was changed in a reprinting, it is meaningless.

 

Peace be with you Sean, I am not angry or anything with you, just debating an issue I think has been misinterpretted. In fact I am not sure what in the quoted text made you think I was upset.

Check the FAQ and / or 5th Edition Revised. Sean's statement is not in fact a lie, it is based upon more complete information than you have available in your 5th Edition Rulebook.

 

However, that being said, to the best of my knowledge few players or GMs are aware of the technicality, and of those that are aware of it I don't think many actually enforce it.

 

I made a point of enforcing it in a couple of campaigns with characters that have Find Weakness both to adhere to the rules and to try it out, and I must say that overall I found that the disruption of having to remind players to pick which defense type every time, and then having to remember which type they found weakness against through the course of a combat was not really worth the bother.

 

In general most characters primarily use either killing or normal damage attacks as their main attacks anyway; and the odd character that has an even split between normal and killing attacks paid for those attacks or acquired the equipment that allows them to do so.

 

It also makes little sense in most cases that a weakness vs one type of attack wouldnt also be weak vs another type of attack, at least when you are dealing with the difference between Normal and Resistant. I mean sure you could say that a crack between one armor plate and another could be weak vs a sword but not a punch, but since the rule works at the metagame level of Killing or Normal and doesnt get down into SFX differences of piercing vs blunt this is basically immaterial (for instance).

 

So, by and large I would say that, yes that is the official way FW is supposed to work, but that I wouldnt bat an eye if I sat down at someones game table to play and they ran FW the classic way where it works vs both Normal and Resistant Defenses with one roll.

 

To be fair though, if you are going to allow it to work like that, you probably shouldnt require people to buy LoW vs Resistant or Normal either.

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

In practice I've only seen it be an issue with Find weakness:All attacks dudes..... Most FW specialists just use it with one "favorite" attack so you don't need to track it...

The super Ninja is going against normal PD 'cause he uses his martial/defensive punch.

 

I've used it against him by letting the mooks start wearing armor, so he needs to choose a little, but if you need FW vs mooks you are a Real specialist indeed....

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

That would appear to render Find Weakness nearly useless; and hence pretty much justifies its low cost. If you want reliable halving of all defenses' date=' buy AP.[/quote']

 

Not if you want to kill people or break things.

 

In that case, all you need to do is define your FW as working with a Killing Attack against Resistant Defenses.

 

Then make things break and/or bleed.

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Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I don't think ~200 pages (over half the length of the original 5th Edition book!) made only "meaningless" changes.

 

I wasn't meaning that the changes in the book were meaningless. I was meaning that the wording of the change, as quoted, would still be meaningless since the defense in question would obviously have to be based off of the attack the power was purchased to be used with. So if you had FW with a punch, you would obviously not choose an exotic defense for your FW to work against. You would choose normal defenses. I would assume this separation of defenses was added to help balance the power, so someone couldn't buy FW for all attacks and have it with killing attacks, mental attacks and normal attacks all at once.

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