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Robyn

Gargoyles HERO

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

I loved Gargoyles, it had some of the best characters ever done on TV, be it animated or live-action.

 

Especially David Xanatos, who would make an amazing villain (or even a hero! -- hey, why not?) in a Champs campaign. Rich, brilliant, well-connected, a skilled fighter and of course there's the battlearmor, and he has a great motivation: he wants to be immortal. That and he had some moral standards and lines he just wouldn't cross. A truly great villain by any standards.

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

Why is handwavium a roadblock? And why continually dismiss everything as handwavium, the argument is confusing at best since we are discussing modern fantasy. Do you ask mages in your games how they cast fireballs or magic missile? None of your superheroes fly?

 

 

:) Tisn't. Personally, I try to use Handwavium and Unobtanium as little as possible, but that is a personal preference. ;)

 

There are three levels of handwavium use.

 

If the setup is: "It just works that way." What you call modern fantasy.

 

Or you can use handwavium/unobtainium alloys for a pulp feel: "They stay aloft using the eighth ray, which has anti-gravitational properties."

 

Or you can go with a handwavium/obscurantium alloy: "Donno. The laws of physics say what you see is impossible. Who are you gonna believe, your science text book or your own eyes? BTW, make a physics roll to see if you can come up with a hypothesis."

 

What I'm getting at is that it depends a lot on the campaign background. Like the campaign setup rules in the core rules that give a list of 1 to 5 scales on realism/theaticality etc, I'm suggesting a that the ref needs to set out before hand, perhaps on a 1 to5 scale, how much real world science matters. Not at all through if you can't justify it in some scientific theory, it won't happen. Obviously, it would be very difficult to run a champions or Dark Champions with a "five" setting: But OTOH, I find a "one" campaign to be disorientating. If physical laws are only suggestions, how can one make a rational deduction?

 

Put it this way: Suppose you are a martial artist chasing a garg villian. You first find your "burglar," some guy in a weird reptile costume, with an eight foot wingspan. You chase him to the roof, where he jumps off and disappears. Flight? Teleport? Invisibility? Tunneling? Going with the wings, presume flight and a good stealth roll. Next time you catch up to him, he is too close to run away and disappear, and you close for melee. Wouldn't it be a good assumption that your opponent weighs almost nothing? Or else the wings wouldn't support him. Boy are you in for a surprise when you try a martial throw! :eg:

 

See, the default setting is "He has wings, therefore he can fly (GLIDE!), and he looks massive, so therefore he is." But some times this causes doubletakes.

 

The reason I am "picking" on Gargoyles is that I am familiar with the setting. I haven't read Marvel since they killed off Jean Gray (the first time), and could never get into the DC universe. (I gave up on AC when they went to $5 an issue :mad: )

 

I guess I could be going on about Marvel's Vulture for the same arguement. (It that green turkey still in Marvelverse? We were discussing the other day the lamest villian in comicdom, and Vulture won) :idjit:

 

Midas

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

Or you can go with a handwavium/obscurantium alloy: "Donno. The laws of physics say what you see is impossible. Who are you gonna believe' date=' your science text book or your own eyes? BTW, make a physics roll to see if you can come up with a hypothesis."[/quote']

 

I prefer this approach, though it may have something to do with running a campaign where discovering the true laws underlying reality is a core theme (mystery).

 

Obviously' date=' it would be very difficult to run a champions or Dark Champions with a "five" setting[/quote']

 

Well, since Dark Champions is "street-level" heroics, it would probably be easier than running a traditional Champions game.

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

For the record, I never thought for a second that you were dissing "Handwavium", Midas. ;) I like the name (though I like unobtanium even better).

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

Well, since Dark Champions is "street-level" heroics, it would probably be easier than running a traditional Champions game.

 

Yes, but adding a Gargoyle into the mix caps you at 3, I think. :D

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

I loved Gargoyles, it had some of the best characters ever done on TV, be it animated or live-action.

 

Especially David Xanatos, who would make an amazing villain (or even a hero! -- hey, why not?) in a Champs campaign. Rich, brilliant, well-connected, a skilled fighter and of course there's the battlearmor, and he has a great motivation: he wants to be immortal. That and he had some moral standards and lines he just wouldn't cross. A truly great villain by any standards.

 

I liked his obvious joy in life. DZ always seemed to be having fun, even in the grimmest situations. As far as the hero/villian question goes: He flips a coin each week: "Who am I taking for a role model this week? Bruce or Lex?" :sneaky:

 

Demona was my preferred villian. There was a list of, mostly humorous, character's worst nightmares (Like Elisa's mother -voice by Nichele Nichols- being only able to say "Hailing Frequencies Open"). But Demona's was "None -her life is a nightmare." Of all the stuff that happened to her, think about just this one subplot: She waited a thousand years to see Goliath again, and he up and left her for Elisa. She moved in with Thailog, who had Delilah on the side. And that was just two years out of 1000!

 

Midas

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

For the record' date=' I never thought for a second that you were dissing "Handwavium", Midas. ;) I like the name (though I like unobtanium even better).[/quote']

 

Thanks. :)

 

Blacksword does have a point, I was harping on the question. His response was a fair one, "what's your point Midas?" So I gave a fair answer.

 

It just occured to me, If The Vulture was a problem, what did I think of Submariner's method of flight? :eek:

 

Classic Golden Age: Handwavium by the shovel full. And there is nothing wrong with that, if you accept it as part of the story. Almost any story or scenario you care to name takes a certain amount of it for the meta story: "Just go with it. Otherwise the story won't work." For example, in City of Stone, NYC had thousands of security cameras at the time. Did no one think to check what had gone on during that night?

 

I think Handwavium and Unobtanium are mentioned on Wiki. Handwavium refers either to a dismissive flick of the wrist or an Obi-wan hypnotic pass "This is a perfectly normal event, nothing unusual at all." Unobtanium refers to something that would be prefectly possible if some impossible item were on hand. For ex: FTL would be perfectly possible, if you had some kind of energy that has no mass. "But..." :D

 

AFAIK, Obscurantium (an unusual application of some obscure scientific principle) is my own, but I prolly saw the word somewhere.

 

Midas

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

At the risk of going even more off topic, I'm a fan of the Vulture, but that's because I mostly know him as a cheap flyer in HeroClix. I've never read a story with him in it in the comics. I vaguely recall him appearing in one of the old 60s Filmation(?) cartoons, I think, but that could be a vague memory of a traumatic flashback from a past life. ;)

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

Thanks. :)

 

Blacksword does have a point, I was harping on the question. His response was a fair one, "what's your point Midas?" So I gave a fair answer.

Well you did have a point that I agree with, which is to make the physics of the game world consistent. I just dislike the terms 'handwavium/unobtanium' because they seem to limit the discussion to real world physics and dismiss anything outside of real world physics as BS as opposed to imagination.

 

If gargoyles are as heavy or heavier than humans, then the GM has to decide, are gargoyles aided by some sort of magic, are the laws of physics slightly different so that humans could use smaller gliders to descend at the same rate. Its obvious by Xanatos' body armor that physics or technology is different in Gargoyle land then the real world.

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

I liked his obvious joy in life. DZ always seemed to be having fun' date=' even in the grimmest situations. As far as the hero/villian question goes: He flips a coin each week: "Who am I taking for a role model this week? Bruce or Lex?" :sneaky: [/quote']

 

His supporting cast was great as well. Owen/Puck (man but was that a surprise when I first saw it), the perfect cool, calm, collected assistant. I get the idea that Owen could have face down Doctor Destroyer without losing his cool. And Doctor Savarius, the mad scientist's mad scientist. Next to him, Herr Doktor Kreuger and Doc Doom are just general practicioners

 

And of course, Fox. The one woman in the world who was an equal match for Xanatos. I really liked how the writers gave them a relationship as equals, which they were. That and the fact that Fox and Xanatos really, truly, loved each other. They must have had one of the most stable and trusting marriages in all TV-dom.

 

And I loved the episode where Fox gets the Eye of Odin and turns into a snarling werewolf. They gave her a reason for being savage and mindless that made far more sense than the usual "but werewolves are evil monsters!" one (her metabolism ran so fast that if she wasn't constantly eating Fox was literally insane from hunger pains; she could starve to death within six hours or so if she didn't get enough to eat). And Xanatos should be glad they did cure her. Even if she hadn't starved, just think how embarassing it would be to have to bail your wife out of the dog pound a few days every month.

 

Demona was my preferred villian. There was a list of' date=' mostly humorous, character's worst nightmares (Like Elisa's mother -voice by Nichele Nichols- being only able to say "Hailing Frequencies Open"). But Demona's was "None -her life[b'] is [/b]a nightmare." Of all the stuff that happened to her, think about just this one subplot: She waited a thousand years to see Goliath again, and he up and left her for Elisa. She moved in with Thailog, who had Delilah on the side. And that was just two years out of 1000!

 

Midas

 

Yeah, poor Demona. The writers could nmake you feel pity for her one moment and then hate her guts the next. That was some fine writing for a cartoon; I wish it were more common.

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

Well you did have a point that I agree with' date=' which is to make the physics of the [b']game world[/b] consistent. I just dislike the terms 'handwavium/unobtanium' because they seem to limit the discussion to real world physics and dismiss anything outside of real world physics as BS as opposed to imagination.

 

If gargoyles are as heavy or heavier than humans, then the GM has to decide, are gargoyles aided by some sort of magic, are the laws of physics slightly different so that humans could use smaller gliders to descend at the same rate. Its obvious by Xanatos' body armor that physics or technology is different in Gargoyle land then the real world.

 

A thought on all this - sometimes the argument against being able to find any consistency in imaginary physics is that they have no real-world equivalent. The question to ask, when this comes up, is why we find the physics of the real world to be consistent? Do we have nothing better than "well, they exist, so they must be consistent"? Once we realize how we measure consistency (as a framework, not by specific laws we become aware of), it becomes possible to extend that logic through any laws we theorize, imaginary or not.

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

A thought on all this - sometimes the argument against being able to find any consistency in imaginary physics is that they have no real-world equivalent. The question to ask' date=' when this comes up, is why we find the physics of the [i']real[/i] world to be consistent? Do we have nothing better than "well, they exist, so they must be consistent"? Once we realize how we measure consistency (as a framework, not by specific laws we become aware of), it becomes possible to extend that logic through any laws we theorize, imaginary or not.

 

Right. So, is light a wave or a particle?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary sees no reason it can't be both, but it can conveniently believe one thing at one end and another thing at the other end.

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

Right. So' date=' is light a wave or a particle?[/quote']

 

I typed up a few sentences about science still being in the development process, but realized before I finished that it would need to go into how "popular belief" might be wrong, and deleted it all because I wasn't about to open that can of worms ;)

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

Small Tangent

 

As part of my centurians there is a character named Gargoyle, inspired by Goliath, all because of the cape look, seriously, that was so cool I HAD to make a character

 

He has three forms

 

Human

 

Gargoyle (A brick with wings basicaly, OIHID)

 

Stone Statue (+15/+15 Hardened Armor, Visible, 0 DCV Concentration through 0ut, Not aware, OIHID + 1d6 Healing basicaly same lims linked to Armor)

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

At the risk of going even more off topic' date=' I'm a fan of the Vulture, but that's because I mostly know him as a cheap flyer in HeroClix. I've never read a story with him in it in the comics. I vaguely recall him appearing in one of the old 60s Filmation(?) cartoons, I think, but that could be a vague memory of a traumatic flashback from a past life. ;)[/quote']

 

Wanna start a lamest villian thread in the champions section? :)

 

NEway, he was an early sparing partner of Spidey, when Spiderman was only slightly stronger and faster than human norm. Vulure was a bank robber who had OIF (foulable) wings, the Glide power, a few levels with movement (Spidey didn't want to face him in the open because the vulture had the advantage), and a gun. by coincidence, old spidermans have been a freeby with the local sunday paper.

 

That's it. He soared around and stuck up targets of opportunity. :rolleyes:

 

Midas

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Re: Gargoyles HERO

 

Small Tangent

 

As part of my centurians there is a character named Gargoyle, inspired by Goliath, all because of the cape look, seriously, that was so cool I HAD to make a character

 

He has three forms

 

Human

 

Gargoyle (A brick with wings basicaly, OIHID)

 

Stone Statue (+15/+15 Hardened Armor, Visible, 0 DCV Concentration through 0ut, Not aware, OIHID + 1d6 Healing basicaly same lims linked to Armor)

 

Interesting character. :)

 

0 DCV concentration is a good way to simulate the stone sleep.

 

To drift the thread in another direction: Way back in 1st edition Champs, along with Marksman, Flare, et al, was a character called "Gargoyle." The writer kept the character when the comics line spun off, so we know next to nothing about the character. Anybody know anything about that original champions character?

 

Midas

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