Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

For the most part I agree with that. Minor injuries don't need to be actual body damage. But honestly' date=' if Grond uncorked on Nighthawk in the comics wouldn't you expect Nighthawk to be dead? [/quote']

 

In the comics? No. Nighthawk has body armor. Also' date=' he would twist his body at the last second so what would kill a normal human would hurt him bady but leave him alive. I'm not talking about needing to "Roll With the Punch"...it's just standard comic book rationalization for why the martial artist isn't dead the first time someone lands a blow on him.[/quote']

 

Hmm... let me take a look at my Champions and Conquerors, Killers And Crooks books for some pertinent stats (sound of pages flipping)... so Grond has 90 Strength, for 18d6 Normal Damage, or 22d6 with Haymaker, 22 Body Damage on average. Knighthawk has total PD from innate Physical Defense and Armor of 18, and 15 Body. Using my Instant Kill rule Grond would have to connect for 23 Body damage to smear him - certainly doable.

 

Knighthawk's Constitution of 20 would give him a 13- roll to avoid dying immediately. If he makes it, you can accept Fedifensor's SFX explanation that he twisted just enough out of the way at the last second. (That also works if Grond only managed average or below-average Body damage.) If Knighthawk fails his roll, you won't have to be esthetically offended by his headgear any more.

 

I would consider this a reasonable scenario given the conventions of four-color comics. YM is certainly free to V.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

And what's the rationale if Nighthawk is unconscious when he gets hit?

 

Aside from the note in the Fifth Edition rules that someone can kill an incapacitated opponent if the situation should logically allow them to do so?

 

For my own games, I would rule that if Knighthawk was unconscious he would not get a Constitution roll to avoid instant death, as a minimal condition.

[MitchellS]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Hmm... let me take a look at my Champions and Conquerors' date=' Killers And Crooks[/i'] books for some pertinent stats (sound of pages flipping)... so Grond has 90 Strength, for 18d6 Normal Damage, or 22d6 with Haymaker, 22 Body Damage on average. Knighthawk has total PD from innate Physical Defense and Armor of 18, and 15 Body. Using my Instant Kill rule Grond would have to connect for 23 Body damage to smear him - certainly doable.

 

Knighthawk's Constitution of 20 would give him a 13- roll to avoid dying immediately. If he makes it, you can accept Fedifensor's SFX explanation that he twisted just enough out of the way at the last second. (That also works if Grond only managed average or below-average Body damage.) If Knighthawk fails his roll, you won't have to be esthetically offended by his headgear any more.

 

I would consider this a reasonable scenario given the conventions of four-color comics. YM is certainly free to V.

Is the answer to everything in Champions that it's only maybe possible if you do a haymaker and use house rules for damage?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I actually use my own house rule posted above. My Colossus would do 30 body without a haymaker and be able to tare it off. But my point was that Champions doesn't use my, or Lord Liaden's, house rule. Within the Hero rules a 70 str Colossus would need to do 5 haymakers on that door.

 

I don't believe the Hero scale fits within the comic book genre. In the comics a master villain like Gravitar would turn her full intensity gravity control on a tank and crush it into the ground. In the game the best she can hope to do is flip it over [since her best attack can't hurt it]. Do you believe Magneto couldn't crush a tank? I honestly refuse to believe that every comic book character is twice as powerful as the toughest champions characters, and that's why they can tare vault doors off.

I'll disagree in that I think there's a significant difference between tearing a bank vault door off its hinges and punching through it or destroying it outright. Doctor Octopus doesn't tear bank doors in half; he rips them off their hinges. The door remains fundamentally intact; it's simply no longer a door. And the hinges and latch of a vault are not going to be as tough as a door four or more times thicker. (I've seen bank vault hinges. They're less than two inches thick; which under the existing rules means they're a lot less durable than 16 DEF.)

 

The listed DEF and BODY for objects in Hero are IMHO primarily written with regard to destroying them; not simply rendering them useless or bypassing them. If you want to wreck them entirely you buy powers with AP or PEN. IMO vault doors have too high a DEF anyway given that the old M60 tanks had the same DEF. The armor on a main battle tank is much tougher than any conventional bank vault. A DEF of 16 is more appropriate for the doors of Cheyenne Mountain.

 

As usual, dramatic effect and common sense have to play a part. If the hero can theoretically break the vault door (be it by repeated attacks, Haymaker, or whatever) then I see no reason not to allow it in one effort. An easier way would be to automatically allow attacks against inanimate and stationary objects to do maximum damage, so a Haymakered 70 STR will easily tear open a DEF 16 vault door.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Is the answer to everything in Champions that it's only maybe possible if you do a haymaker and use house rules for damage?

 

Not at all. As I indicated in my first post, I hold the position that the way most published Champions material has been presented doesn't readily lend itself to many supers characters doing the things that comparable supers characters do in mainstream four-color comics. You obviously hold to that view as well. The Galactic Champions sourcebook does present a few rules options allowing characters to be less vulnerable and more destructive when pitted against the mundane world. Since those options appear in a published book, they are arguably not house rules but an official part of the system.

 

However, I found those rules to be too vague and limited to do what I wanted to accomplish in my games. I started this thread to present my own ideas, and to solicit ideas from others, on good ways to achieve these effects, so that other gamers have more options to adjust their HERO game play to what they want. With more input I hope to refine my ideas sufficiently to have them published in Digital Hero, at which point they might be considered a part of the HERO System. I might even dare to dream that they will one day make it into an official sourcebook.

 

For the time being, though, I readily acknowledge that these are just house rules. With as much precedent behind them as I can find, but still just house rules. They reflect my own biases as to what would make a good four-color game, and of course some people will disagree with them. That's why I wanted input from other people. If someone finds my house rules, or yours or anyone else's who posts here, useful and an improvement to their HERO gaming, I'll be content.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Hmm... let me take a look at my Champions and Conquerors' date=' Killers And Crooks[/i'] books for some pertinent stats (sound of pages flipping)... so Grond has 90 Strength, for 18d6 Normal Damage, or 22d6 with Haymaker, 22 Body Damage on average. Knighthawk has total PD from innate Physical Defense and Armor of 18, and 15 Body. Using my Instant Kill rule Grond would have to connect for 23 Body damage to smear him - certainly doable.

 

Knighthawk's Constitution of 20 would give him a 13- roll to avoid dying immediately. If he makes it, you can accept Fedifensor's SFX explanation that he twisted just enough out of the way at the last second. (That also works if Grond only managed average or below-average Body damage.) If Knighthawk fails his roll, you won't have to be esthetically offended by his headgear any more.

 

I would consider this a reasonable scenario given the conventions of four-color comics. YM is certainly free to V.

The more obvious answer to this dilemma is that Nighthawk shouldn't fight Grond, who is simply out of his power-class, any more than Spider-Man should take on the Hulk with any expectation of winning. At best he's going to try to distract or delay his much more powerful opponent and protect innocent bystanders until the big guns arrive.

 

I don't really understand this focus on the canonical characters presented in Hero. If they're inadequate, then one simply doesn't use them and/or beefs them up as necessary. But the source material certainly has plenty of examples of heroes fighting bad guys who badly outclass them. The difference is that in the comics the writer has full control of the action and can dictate the result he wants (including allowing Spider-Man to defeat a herald of Galactus ), whereas in Hero a single rolled "3" can result in hitting an otherwise "unhittable" character. Grond may not kill Nighthawk outright with that 18d6 hit, but Big Green can certainly put the Duck Avenger in "GM Discretionland" with a solid hit.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Lord Laiden, I saved your first post as a new referance doc for the next Champions world I do. I find that it allows for just the right feel that we see in the comics.

 

I also agree with othes that it is all a matter of style and what you want to have happen in the game, one reason that we play is that we all have a different way of looking at things and must come together to tell the story we want, ie play the game.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

You've underlined the pros and cons of such a change quite well. I think the examples in The Ultimate Brick of applying MegaScale to Knockback are supposed to allow for "blasting" someone through a wall so that they keep on going a great distance' date=' without actually increasing the damage that they do.[/quote']

I want supers to go through a wall or two, but not get knocked back a country mile. The former fits the genre convention I'm looking for without taking characters completely out of the combat. Double Knockback IS a +3/4 advantage, so maybe I'm worrying too much...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Hmm... let me take a look at my Champions and Conquerors' date=' Killers And Crooks[/i'] books for some pertinent stats (sound of pages flipping)... so Grond has 90 Strength, for 18d6 Normal Damage, or 22d6 with Haymaker, 22 Body Damage on average. Nighthawk has total PD from innate Physical Defense and Armor of 18, and 15 Body. Using my Instant Kill rule Grond would have to connect for 23 Body damage to smear him - certainly doable.

 

I have to correct my hasty math. Nighthawk would have to get hit for 33 Body to be killed in one shot, rather than 23. So Grond would need a very good roll to smear Nighthawk in his armored suit.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I want supers to go through a wall or two' date=' but not get knocked back a country mile. The former fits the genre convention I'm looking for without taking characters completely out of the combat. Double Knockback IS a +3/4 advantage, so maybe I'm worrying too much...[/quote']

 

Fair enough. Of course you can adjust the hex scale from the first +1/4 of MegaScale to be far less than a country mile. But I can understand your wanting to put that into the default combat system.

 

I have my own issues with Knockback, but that's probably a topic for another thread.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I have to apologise. There's another factor which I forgot to address in my initial post about how Attacks and Defenses interact: the effect of certain Advantages which add to the Damage Class of an attack.

 

The Armor Piercing Advantage would be factored in when determining whether an attack would be capable of doing Body damage to a target, either for a Real Weapon against Super Defenses, or for a Super Attack against inanimate objects. In the former case the Defense of the target would be reduced by one-half as normal for AP attacks (barring Hardened Defenses, of course), before comparing it to the Body damage rolled. For the latter case the Defense of the object would also be reduced by one-half as normal; if the attack could then do Body damage to the object with a maximum roll, the object's Defense is reduced to one-quarter vs that attack.

 

IMO a Super Killing Attack with the Advantage Penetrating should not factor in that Advantage against an inanimate object. It already automatically does Body Damage against unhardened Defenses. However, I must admit that I've never used a Penetrating Killing Attack with Real Weapon in my games - there are few existing HERO writeups for such things, far fewer than for those with Armor Piercing - so I haven't yet worked out how to deal with them.

 

I've added this material to my initial post, under the "Notes" section.

[Dino]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Pretty cool rules there L.L.

 

Another thing I have done with Real Weapon limitation is rule that weapons with it require weapon familiarity even in a superheroic campaign. That way supers have a reason to have WF's even if they paid points for thier own super-guns.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

If you're a brick in a standard Champs universe, you do have some options. I find that flipping over a tank pretty much neutralizes it. If you have to kill a normal, most GMs will let you use the location chart for a minute to hit them in the head, and with a 50 Str against a normal with 8 Bod, THAT will usually kill them instantly. Some bricks have killing attacks, this implies that some bricks are able to focus their strength to punch through or rip apart objects better than other bricks...if I want my brick to do that, I'll give him a killing attack (eg, a 60 Str Brick with a 2d6 HKA, 4d6 with Str to match his 12d6 punch).

 

On the GM side many normals should have a Phys or Psych Lim: Noncombatant to reflect their total inability to fight effectively. This could include things like halving hit location penalties, or having to make Ego rolls to use any combat maneuvers (like Dodge).

[Wanderer]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Very cool and intersting rule set, L.L. I may just add that while I've not given a definitive houseruling to the issue of normal people being attacked by superhumans, I've done something similar as it concerns mundane objects:

 

Mundane weapons have Decreased (x5) STUN Multiplier and Reduced Penetration vs. superhumans

 

Mundane objects have x2 BODY Vulnerability and 3d6 BODY Instant Susceptibility to superhuman attacks

 

Moreover, high-end superhumans have effective invulnerability vs. mundane weapons, with the possible exception of nuclear weapons (built as Desolidification vs. mundane weapons only).

 

Hell, I've even statted the above house rules as actual powers:

 

Artifacts of Puny Humans Cannot Harm Nor Resist Me: Major Transform 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points) (ordinary objects into ordinary objects with Decreased (x5) STUN Multiplier vs. superhumans, Reduced Penetration vs. superhumans, x2 BODY Vulnerability to superhuman attacks, and 3d6 BODY Instant Susceptibility to superhuman attacks, heals back normally 1 Turn after the character leaves the area), MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Trigger (character is in combat in superhuman form) (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1), Autofire (20 shots; +1 1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (187 Active Points); Rapid Healing (-2), No Range (-1/2), Limited Target (real weapons and armor, and inanimate objects and vehicles built from ordinary materials) (-1/2)

 

Weapons of Puny Humans Cannot Touch Me: Desolidification (affected by Superpowers), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2) (100 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Non-Nuclear Real Weapons (-1)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

The mind boggles that people actually see the need to stat this sort of thing out instead of just going with dramatic license and a bit of common sense.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Hey, this is HERO. We stat out towels and spoons for fun.

[Wanderer]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

The mind boggles that people actually see the need to stat this sort of thing out instead of just going with dramatic license and a bit of common sense.

 

I have noticed that statting things out helps getting a clearer, more coherent picture of how things are supposed to work, and applying them in a consistent way. Plus, as L.L. points out, one does it for the sheer, rule-tinkering fun of it

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

The mind boggles that people actually see the need to stat this sort of thing out instead of just going with dramatic license and a bit of common sense.

 

The issue comes from possibly conflicting views of dramatic license and common sense.

 

Person A may say, "My character's a super, of course he should be able to bounce .50 cal rounds and tear bank vaults open easily, he has a 30rPD and can lift 200 tons! Common sense and dramatic license indicate we should ignore the HERO rules for how damage from the .50cal is applied and how many dice I need to throw to damage the vault door. I can therefore plan and play accordingly."

 

Meanwhile Person B may say, "My character only has 30rDef and only does Xd6 damage. Based on the HERO stats, common sense indicates that I need to be wary of .50 cals that can KO me quickly, and it will take me a while to batter through a vault door. I can therefore plan and play accordingly."

 

Then these people are in the same game. Perhaps a "B" is running the game for several "A"s. As with many other areas, incompatible expectations can be a bummer. I just see this sort of thing as spelling out "here's how 'dramatic license' is going to work in this world - plan accordingly."

 

In other words, "common sense" only works if the GM agrees with it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Well said, oh omnipotent ophidian.

 

Still, HERO makes a greater effort to provide stats and mechanics for all manner of beings and phenomena than many other games do. IMO it's part of the system's philosophy that you should be able to write up anything that you think should be written up, and it definitely attracts a significant percentage of gamers who like writing stuff up.

 

IME the dividing line between what is felt to be necessary to stat and what can be hand-waved varies considerably from gamer to gamer. Gaming seems to be more fun when the whole group can get more or less within the same comfort zone.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Perhaps I should spell out a bit more of where I'm coming from with my own house rule options.

 

As I indicated previously, if I'm going to change the way an element of the game works I prefer not to rewrite everything that's already been built in existing sources. I want a ruleset that can be added to available writeups with little to no changes, and that's simple, easy to use and won't bog down play with lots of extra details.

 

I like what I do to be based as much as possible on precedent. That's why I chose the Real Weapon/Real Armor dynamic, because it's so common in HERO prebuilds and already implies some of the restrictions that I defined. The "saving throw" Characteristic Roll is firmly entrenched in the notion of Breakout Rolls against Mental Powers. The suggestion of greater effectiveness of superpowers against inanimate objects is spelled out in Galactic Champions, as is some weapons doing Reduced Penetration against supers. The Armor Piercing effect is suggested in 5ER as an optional result of rolling a natural 3 "critical" to hit an opponent.

 

I like to retain the randomness of dice roll results for damage. That's why I avoided a "maximum damage/minimum damage" approach (such as is suggested in Galactic Champions) in favor of reducing defenses.

 

I like the idea of defined cutoffs, where you can clearly establish at what level of effect on the dice something should or should not be allowed to occur, rather than leaving it mostly to GM discretion. My rationale behind using the potential of a given attack to do Body damage is that it implies that the attack is or is not powerful enough to seriously hurt the target.

 

If someone isn't comfortable with any of my design priorities, then they may not be comfortable using my house rules based on them. Which won't hurt my feelings. Much.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Great ideas all, Lord Liaden. I'd rep you if I could.

[Kenn]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

LL, I think I'm going to integrate these into my campaign. Good stuff!

[TheRealVector]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

The question really becomes how many comic book characters do you believe could blow or rip open a safe if they needed to? Cyclops? Marvel Girl? Colossus? Havok? Human Torch? Thing? She-Hulk? Are they all doing 30d6 in the game? Are 15d6 characters really that inferior? And if they are' date=' why are almost all the write ups in the game for characters doing 10-15d6?[/quote']

 

This discussion reminds me of when I was introduced to Champions (2nd Edition I think). The GM was a rather unimaginative "rules lawyer" type.

 

Finally he told me that the game "just couldn't make characters like those in the comic books." Which caused me to immediately think, "Then what's the bloody point?"

 

The next week I started my own game and the players quickly migrated to the new game.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

The mind boggles that people actually see the need to stat this sort of thing out instead of just going with dramatic license and a bit of common sense.

 

I hear ya! Only idiots could disagree with me or be interested in something I find unimportant and unnecessary.

 

The double irony is that I'm not really joking.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Revisiting this topic to see if Lord Liaden has made any additions to these house rules, as I've finally started running a Champions campaign (for the first time in many years)...