Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Well, the only addition I've made to what's on the first post (beside clarifying how I'd deal with Knockback, in response to a question later on the thread) involves weapons with the Penetrating Advantage and the Real Weapon Limitation. I decided to treat Penetrating the way I treat Armor Piercing to determine whether the weapon could do BODY Damage past Defenses to a given target with its highest roll. If it can do BODY, then the weapon does its normal Penetrating damage to that target.

 

BTW, for some time I've wondered whether I should tidy up the presentation of this material and submit it to Digital Hero. Having posted it here in rough form for free, I doubted that there would interest in paying for it as part of DH, but what do you guys think?

[Fedifensor]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

BTW' date=' for some time I've wondered whether I should tidy up the presentation of this material and submit it to [i']Digital Hero[/i]. Having posted it here in rough form for free, I doubted that there would interest in paying for it as part of DH, but what do you guys think?

 

I think it would be a great Digital Hero article. Personally, I'd probably skip using the Instant Kill rules (as my campaign has a low lethality), but the Super Attacks and Super Defenses rules fit pretty well.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I'd also like to reiterate that I welcome input from anyone else who has developed their own approach to this issue. I've heard remarks from a couple of people that they have their own way of handling it. I don't expect everyone to like my methods, and other options would make this thread more broadly useful, not to mention possibly giving me useful ideas.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I'd also like to reiterate that I welcome input from anyone else who has developed their own approach to this issue. I've heard remarks from a couple of people that they have their own way of handling it. I don't expect everyone to like my methods' date=' and other options would make this thread more broadly useful, not to mention possibly giving me useful ideas. [/quote']

 

I'd still like a better method of handing throwing and knockback. Having a high-STR character who can throw a baseball into orbit is commonplace in the comics, but impossible without weird advantages (MegaScale on Strength?) in HERO.

 

Granted, I tried to address this some years back on the boards, and it didn't get much traction. So maybe everyone is happy with the linear scale...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

FWIW there's an optional alternate throwing chart in The Ultimate Brick which does incorporate vastly greater throws by high-strength characters, scaling more exponentially. IIRC it's based on a chart that appeared in the old Hero Games magazine Adventurers Club for 4E HERO.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Working on some paramilitary guys today, I found the weak spot in these rules. None of them will give supers a chance against the typical heavy weapons used by the military.

 

As written, a LAW Rocket is a 6 1/2d6 AP RKA Explosion with a +1 STUN multiplier. That will turn most supers into a smear on the ground - 23 BODY versus 1/2 resistant defenses, with a minimum 46 STUN assuming an average BODY roll (or 69 STUN assuming a roll of 3 on the die). Granted, it takes an extra phase to fire, but even a near miss is going to drop anything short of a brick with hardened defenses (and the brick will probably be stunned). I understand the need for the high BODY and AP to blow through a tank, but the Increased STUN multiplier is simply overkill.

 

I had to tone down the LAW when working up a paramilitary guy - dropped it to 6d6, stated that the AP portion only works versus the target hit (not everyone else in the radius), and removed the increased STUN multiple. Even so, I pray that the supers see the guy and stop him before he fires...

 

So, what do other people do to address this issue? Change the stats on the weapons? Let the chips fall where they may? Just avoid using realistic heavy weapons altogether?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Working on some paramilitary guys today, I found the weak spot in these rules. None of them will give supers a chance against the typical heavy weapons used by the military.

 

As written, a LAW Rocket is a 6 1/2d6 AP RKA Explosion with a +1 STUN multiplier. That will turn most supers into a smear on the ground - 23 BODY versus 1/2 resistant defenses, with a minimum 46 STUN assuming an average BODY roll (or 69 STUN assuming a roll of 3 on the die). Granted, it takes an extra phase to fire, but even a near miss is going to drop anything short of a brick with hardened defenses (and the brick will probably be stunned). I understand the need for the high BODY and AP to blow through a tank, but the Increased STUN multiplier is simply overkill.

 

I had to tone down the LAW when working up a paramilitary guy - dropped it to 6d6, stated that the AP portion only works versus the target hit (not everyone else in the radius), and removed the increased STUN multiple. Even so, I pray that the supers see the guy and stop him before he fires...

 

So, what do other people do to address this issue? Change the stats on the weapons? Let the chips fall where they may? Just avoid using realistic heavy weapons altogether?

I've never thought Increased Stun Multiplier made any sense whatsoever on a military weapon designed to penetrate armored vehicles. LAWs and the like are not designed to attack human beings in the first place. It's doubtful a LAW could even hit any character who is moving; and the AP portion should apply only to the actual object which takes a direct hit and not anything caught in the explosion. I'd actually give a LAW a significant to hit penalty against a human sized target.

 

If we're going to insist on "more realistic" real world weapons in Hero, that realism needs to work in both directions.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

It's doubtful a LAW could even hit any character who is moving; and the AP portion should apply only to the actual object which takes a direct hit and not anything caught in the explosion. I'd actually give a LAW a significant to hit penalty against a human sized target.

 

Well, to be fair, even by the rules the LAW has a tough time hitting a human-sized target. Remember that it has no OCV bonus, only a +1 to RMod, and you'd have to be insane to fire a LAW less than 2 range increments away (the explosion radius is around 20 hexes). That means at least a -3 to hit a human-sized target - and any character should abort to dodge if targeted by a LAW.

 

Sure, you could just aim at the hex, but if you rule that the Armor Piercing only affects the direct target, then you're not going to get the effects of AP. As for the STUN multiple...there's really no reason to add increased STUN, since you'll knock out (and probably kill) any human built with NCM with a typical damage roll, even if they're wearing body armor.

[clsage]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

However, as I mentioned earlier, some GMs are not comfortable with arbitrarily making such a distinction. In that case I recommend subsuming my Instant Kill rule into a general Physical Limitation, which I call Mere Mortal (Infrequent, Greatly Impairing; 10 Points). A Mere Mortal is essentially a heroic-campaign character in a superheroic world. Rules and standards from heroic-level campaigns apply to a character with the Mere Mortal Lim. These need not include, or only include Instant Kill. The GM could rule that attacks by such characters do Knockdown rather than Knockback; that their bare-handed attacks suffer the same restrictions as described above for weapons with the Real Weapon Limitation; that their END use for Strength or attempts to Push follow heroic instead of superheroic rules; and so on. Adding this Limitation grounds normal people firmly within the constraints of a more realistic world, while freeing characters without it to achieve four-color exploits.

 

I am liking (and stealing....errrr, adapting...heck, I'll admit it: stealing) this

idea. Thanks !

 

-Carl-

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Working on some paramilitary guys today, I found the weak spot in these rules. None of them will give supers a chance against the typical heavy weapons used by the military.

 

As written, a LAW Rocket is a 6 1/2d6 AP RKA Explosion with a +1 STUN multiplier. That will turn most supers into a smear on the ground - 23 BODY versus 1/2 resistant defenses, with a minimum 46 STUN assuming an average BODY roll (or 69 STUN assuming a roll of 3 on the die). Granted, it takes an extra phase to fire, but even a near miss is going to drop anything short of a brick with hardened defenses (and the brick will probably be stunned). I understand the need for the high BODY and AP to blow through a tank, but the Increased STUN multiplier is simply overkill.

 

I had to tone down the LAW when working up a paramilitary guy - dropped it to 6d6, stated that the AP portion only works versus the target hit (not everyone else in the radius), and removed the increased STUN multiple. Even so, I pray that the supers see the guy and stop him before he fires...

 

So, what do other people do to address this issue? Change the stats on the weapons? Let the chips fall where they may? Just avoid using realistic heavy weapons altogether?

 

Can I assume that we're talking about my house rules, as on the first post of this thread? If so, let me just recall the one most pertinent to this example: that if an attack with the Real Weapon Limitation (which I'm assuming this LAW rocket has) can't do BODY Damage to a target past its Defenses with a Standard Effect roll, the attack is treated as if it has the Reduced Penetration Limitation against that target. Armor Piercing reduces the target's Defenses by half for purposes of determining whether the attack has the potential to do BODY. Increased Stun Multiplier doesn't figure into the calculation.

 

Looking at your LAW rocket example, Standard Effect for 6d6+1 is 19 BODY. So, against a target with 19 Resistant Physical Defense that's Hardened, or 38 rPD that's not Hardened, the rocket would do the equivalent of 2x3d6 (or 2x3d6+1 if you're generous) with +1 Stun Multiplier. Many supers have Defenses of that level, and would readily survive such an attack, although they may be smarting.

 

Keep in mind that this sort of weapon would be the kind used by the military against powerful supers, and in the comics many such supers are hurt by them. They just can't be stopped by them.

 

Oh, and if a super has 37 rPD Hardened, as some of the high-end ones written up for Champions do, the LAW rocket couldn't do BODY Damage past Defenses with its highest roll. By my rules it would therefore do NO STUN or Knockback to the target. Of course this effect is meant to represent Superman-level characters who can wade through artillery and the like.

 

(BTW is that rocket writeup from Dark Champions? It's certainly a lot nastier than the LAW statted in 5ER.)

[Fedifensor]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Looking at your LAW rocket example' date=' Standard Effect for 6d6+1 is 19 BODY. So, against a target with 19 Resistant Physical Defense that's Hardened, or 38 rPD that's not Hardened, the rocket would do the equivalent of 2x3d6 (or 2x3d6+1 if you're generous) with +1 Stun Multiplier. Many supers have Defenses of that level, and would readily survive such an attack, although they may be smarting.[/quote']

I guess your campaign and mine have different Defense totals for the bricks. There are two 350-point brick PCs in my current group. One has 28/28 fully resistant (but not Hardened) defenses. The other has 26/26 Hardened defenses, but only 12 pts are resistant - even with her Multipower in Armor, she only goes to 30/30 with 16 resistant. So by your house rules, neither would qualify for the benefits. To top that off, my campaign PCs have higher defenses than the standard starting CU superhero.

 

 

Keep in mind that this sort of weapon would be the kind used by the military against powerful supers, and in the comics many such supers are hurt by them. They just can't be stopped by them.

The thing is, a LAW would stop both of the bricks listed above...stunning them with a Standard Effect roll, and also dropping them below half STUN and BODY. The non-bricks would be knocked out and at negative BODY, possibly dead. And there are more deadly pieces of military hardware than a LAW...

 

I think the problem is more with the way such hardware is constructed in the HERO system, as I mentioned in my last post. It's total overkill to have increased STUN multiple on a LAW (most of the heavy weapons have this), and a simple tear gas grenade is 200 active points by Hero rules...

 

 

Oh, and if a super has 37 rPD Hardened, as some of the high-end ones written up for Champions do, the LAW rocket couldn't do BODY Damage past Defenses with its highest roll. By my rules it would therefore do NO STUN or Knockback to the target. Of course this effect is meant to represent Superman-level characters who can wade through artillery and the like.

True. And your house rules have a much greater effect on the higher-end superheroes. But the 'average' (350 point) superhero is still stopped dead in his tracks by hardware that soldiers, terrorist, and similar foes have access to.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

(BTW is that rocket writeup from Dark Champions? It's certainly a lot nastier than the LAW statted in 5ER.)

 

5ER, page 485 - M72A3 LAW Rocket, +0 OCV, +1 RMod, 6 1/2d6 X (Explosion RKA), +1 STUN Multiple, 1 charge, 2H, AP, ET(EP), SFW.

 

So, a 6 1/2d6 AP Explosion RKA averages 23 BODY, versus half defenses, and the +1 STUN Multiple means a minimum of 46 STUN (since you roll the die and apply the -1 with a min of 1 before adding the +1 STUN multiple).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I do want to assert that it isn't my intention to make the heaviest military weapons useless against starting superheroes. In the comics it's only the mightiest heroes and villains who can shrug off tank cannons and the like. But many starting superheroes will be able to ignore automatic weapons fire using these rules, which even powerful heroes are often unable to do using the official rules and writeups. That's one of the most common complaints I hear.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

5ER, page 485 - M72A3 LAW Rocket, +0 OCV, +1 RMod, 6 1/2d6 X (Explosion RKA), +1 STUN Multiple, 1 charge, 2H, AP, ET(EP), SFW.

 

So, a 6 1/2d6 AP Explosion RKA averages 23 BODY, versus half defenses, and the +1 STUN Multiple means a minimum of 46 STUN (since you roll the die and apply the -1 with a min of 1 before adding the +1 STUN multiple).

 

Ah, sorry, I'm still using FREd. I didn't realize that Steve Long had upgraded the weapons tables in 5ER with his gunbunny excesses. Still, if this is an example of top-line contemporary ordnance, I have to wonder how many terrorists would have access to it.

 

Nonetheless I appreciate your concerns. If you really want your starting superheroes to be that tough, it's an easy enough adjustment to make. Just downgrade the damage threshold, i.e. the Reduced Penetration adjustment takes effect if the attack can't do BODY past Defenses with its minimum roll, and the attack does no damage if it can't do BODY with a Standard Effect or perhaps average roll. Personally I think that's more of a Limitation than the -1/4 for Real Weapon justifies, but it would give your supers the level of durability you seem to be looking for.

 

I do appreciate your raising the point, though, as debate like this helps me refine my own approach. Should I ever offer this material for publication, I will definitely include the "lower threshold" option above. However, I say again that I realize these rules aren't for everyone, and rather than just try to defend them against people's legitimate objections I'd much rather hear alternative suggestions for handling the issue, including addressing Fedifensor's point.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

So' date=' what do other people do to address this issue? Change the stats on the weapons? Let the chips fall where they may? Just avoid using realistic heavy weapons altogether?[/quote']

 

If we're going to insist on "more realistic" real world weapons in Hero' date=' that realism needs to work in both directions.[/quote']

 

I've heard a lot of objections since the publication of some of the weapon and vehicle writeups for Fifth Edition, that their Damage and Defenses sometime seem excessive. Although I have absolutely no supporting evidence for my suspicion, I've long wondered if this was partly a response by Steve Long to another long-standing criticism of HERO, that living characters are proportionately harder to kill with one shot than the average cockroach. Boosting weapon damage may be an attempt to make them as instantly lethal as they are (or as people believe them to be) in the real world.

 

Of course once you start raising the DCs of big weapons, you also have to boost the even bigger weapons, and raise the DEF of armored vehicles to balance them, and generally start a game-mechanical arms race. Compounding the debate are all the, as I call them, "Abrams Advocates" who believe that contemporary military tech really is that powerful and that much better than what was in use ten years ago, not to mention back when most of the current comic-book superheroes were first created.

 

My house rules are just an attempt to integrate the official Champs supers writeups with the official everything else, so that most supers can fight against or alongside modern mechanized armies but not eclipse or replace them, while making the Dr. Destroyers and other mightiest supers truly beyond the military's power to deal with.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Ah' date=' sorry, I'm still using FREd. I didn't realize that Steve Long had upgraded the weapons tables in 5ER with his gunbunny excesses. Still, if this is an example of top-line contemporary ordnance, I have to wonder how many terrorists would have access to it.[/quote']The M72 LAW is 30-year-old Vietnam era technology developed to replace the old WW2 era bazookas. It's far from state of the art. It's being used in Afghanistan and Iraq because it's lightweight and not overpowered for taking out fortified houses.

 

I think 6½d6 EX AP RKA is way too large for this weapon. I'd rate it as no more than 4 or 4½d6 AP RKA. Its replacement, the AT4, might conceivably be 6½d6 RKA AP but it's a much heavier and larger weapon with a significantly more powerful warhead.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I do want to assert that it isn't my intention to make the heaviest military weapons useless against starting superheroes. In the comics it's only the mightiest heroes and villains who can shrug off tank cannons and the like. But many starting superheroes will be able to ignore automatic weapons fire using these rules' date=' which even powerful heroes are often unable to do using the official rules and writeups. That's one of the most common complaints I hear.[/quote']

The problem, to me, is that real-world weaponry is more dangerous across the board in the default HERO rules than they are in the comics (something that seems to have been made worse by 5ER). Your optional rules help up to a certain threshold, but once that point is passed you have bodies all over the place. Honestly, I think removing Increased STUN multiple from most (if not all) of the real-world weapons is a good place to start.

 

I'd expect to see an average superhero (an energy projector with a force field, for example) take STUN and BODY from a LAW rocket, and be stunned at a minimum. However, a dedicated 350-point brick should have a decent shot of coming through such a blast without being stunned, and minimal BODY damage (less than half starting BODY). For the LAW, the increased STUN multiplier is the largest culprit, followed by the AP not being limited to the direct target of the rocket.

 

One idea for an optional rule is to have Killing Attacks with the Real Weapon limitation take a -1 to the STUN multiple versus a "super" target. That would counteract the increased STUN multiple most heavy weapons receive, and make the STUN lotto less dangerous.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

The M72 LAW is 30-year-old Vietnam era technology developed to replace the old WW2 era bazookas. It's far from state of the art. It's being used in Afghanistan and Iraq because it's lightweight and not overpowered for taking out fortified houses.

 

I think 6½d6 EX AP RKA is way too large for this weapon. I'd rate it as no more than 4 or 4½d6 AP RKA. Its replacement, the AT4, might conceivably be 6½d6 RKA AP but it's a much heavier and larger weapon with a significantly more powerful warhead.

 

It does seem like the "light" is being left out of "Light Antitank Weapon."

 

Interestingly, in FREd the M72A3 LAW is statted at 4d6 Killing, Explosive. It isn't even Armor Piercing.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

One idea for an optional rule is to have Killing Attacks with the Real Weapon limitation take a -1 to the STUN multiple versus a "super" target. That would counteract the increased STUN multiple most heavy weapons receive' date=' and make the STUN lotto less dangerous.[/quote']

 

Seems like a justifiable adjustment to me.

 

You seem to be particularly bothered by the thresholds I use. How about just ignoring those? Every "super" attack would be Armor Piercing against "normal" stuff, and every Real Weapon attack would be Reduced Penetration versus "super" Defenses. Doesn't scale as well at the low end to give characters invulnerability to some weapons, and I'd want to think through how to deal with a person's natural PD and ED in these circumstances; but all supers would be in the same boat and reap the same benefits.

[assault]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I've pretty much started giving all the supers I build 1/2 Damage Reduction. It has the pleasant characteristic of having a greater effect against larger attacks than smaller ones, which makes it useful for modelling characters that aren't bulletproof, but conveniently don't die when they are somewhere near a larger attack.

 

Given the apparent gunbunny atrocities in 5ER (I use FREd), I'm seriously considering building starting supers on 450 points rather than 350. I'll have to sit down and do the maths to see what it does. Re-matching defences and attacks might be a bit tricky.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

If you want to give DR to all your supers, 450 sounds like an appropriate starting minimum.

 

Won't help you smash tanks, though.

[assault]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Won't help you smash tanks' date=' though. [/quote']

 

True, although it gives you some extra points to put into your attack.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I'd expect to see an average superhero (an energy projector with a force field' date=' for example) take STUN and BODY from a LAW rocket, and be stunned at a minimum. However, a dedicated 350-point brick should have a decent shot of coming through such a blast without being stunned, and minimal BODY damage (less than half starting BODY). For the LAW, the increased STUN multiplier is the largest culprit, followed by the AP not being limited to the direct target of the rocket.[/quote']

 

You know, that raises an issue that interests me: should a 350-point super under current Champions Universe standards be considered the "average" (i.e. the median between the high and low end characters), or is he/she closer to the beginner hero level? From the way the standards in 5E books are presented, my impression has been that 350 is more the latter. If that was the standard, I would question whether a 350-point brick really should be able to withstand something that a tank couldn't. But I could see an argument that he should.

[assault]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

You know' date=' that raises an issue that interests me: should a 350-point super under current Champions Universe standards be considered the "average" (i.e. the median between the high and low end characters), or is he/she closer to the beginner hero level? From the way the standards in 5E books are presented, my impression has been that 350 is more the latter. If that was the standard, I would question whether a 350-point brick really should be able to withstand something that a tank couldn't. But I could see an argument that he should.[/quote']

 

I'm personally not particularly hung up on the idea that a character's raw power should increase with experience. I tend to think that they should mainly grow in skill in using their powers. In other words, they should generally be buying extra multipower slots, skill levels and so on.

 

The exceptions generally involve characters that are very young, ones that have radiation accidents, those using equipment, and those for whom training is a major factor (eg mages, some mentalists, martial artists and so on).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

The problem, to me, is that real-world weaponry is more dangerous across the board in the default HERO rules than they are in the comics (something that seems to have been made worse by 5ER). Your optional rules help up to a certain threshold, but once that point is passed you have bodies all over the place. Honestly, I think removing Increased STUN multiple from most (if not all) of the real-world weapons is a good place to start.

 

I'd expect to see an average superhero (an energy projector with a force field, for example) take STUN and BODY from a LAW rocket, and be stunned at a minimum. However, a dedicated 350-point brick should have a decent shot of coming through such a blast without being stunned, and minimal BODY damage (less than half starting BODY). For the LAW, the increased STUN multiplier is the largest culprit, followed by the AP not being limited to the direct target of the rocket.

 

One idea for an optional rule is to have Killing Attacks with the Real Weapon limitation take a -1 to the STUN multiple versus a "super" target. That would counteract the increased STUN multiple most heavy weapons receive, and make the STUN lotto less dangerous.

I don't care what Hero says; I would not apply the Increased Stun Multiplier on any military grade anti-vehicle weapon. Weapons designed to pierce armor are just as likely to zip right through a human being and do less Stun than a less powerful but specifically anti-personnel weapon like an assault rifle. Rebuilding the round of a LAW or other similar weapons to be a more accurate representation is also reasonable if you envision a scenario where supers are going up against the military.

 

In general, most supers should have a pretty rough time against well equipped and trained military forces. That doesn't mean the supers won't defeat them in the right circumstances; the military is poorly equipped to deal with many superpowers such as Desolidification, Mind Control, or Teleport. But when it comes to delivering sheer destructive force to a specific target... well that's what the military is designed to do.