Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

What I was hoping to do with my rules suggestions was avoid the whole issue of whether any of the published examples are built "right", and get the super and non-super stuff to work together without significantly rewriting any of it, or arbitrarily deciding that things work differently for supers without the HERO hallmark of accounting for that difference on a character's sheet. Not that that isn't a perfectly valid tack to take if the GM and players are comfortable with it; but I know from past comments on this topic that I'm far from the only HEROphile who would prefer that the numbers square with each other.

 

I'm glad that variations are being brought up that may help people with issues that my suggestions don't address, such as Fedifensor's concern over weapon builds with Stun Multipliers. I've never seen much of a problem with them myself up to now, but I'm beginning to think I'm behind the times regarding the latest inflation of weapon stats.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

The problem' date=' to me, is that real-world weaponry is more dangerous across the board in the default HERO rules than they are in the comics (something that seems to have been made worse by 5ER). Your optional rules help up to a certain threshold, but once that point is passed you have bodies all over the place.[/quote']

 

Looking back over this point, I see an area of my rule design philosophy that needs clarifying, because it's an area with which someone could have a reasonable dispute and departure.

 

When I started out trying to square relative power levels in my games, I used the simple "Armor Piercing vs. Normal"/"Reduced Penetration for Real Weapon" axis I mentioned a few posts earlier, and for the most part it worked well. But a couple of my players wanted what I've seen other posters here express a desire for, the ability for their tougher PCs to wade through a hail of small arms fire without worrying about any STUN or Knockback/Knockdown getting through - a common scenario in comics. That's what led me to define my lower-end Defense cutoff level for that effect. However, I felt that to balance that benefit there also had to be an upper-end cutoff for the Reduced Pen that supers enjoy. Essentially, past a certain level the destructive power of some weapons is just overwhelming. It would be easy to just not use those thresholds, but to be fair that should lose your character his immunity to small arms fire. IMHO if you allow the low-end benefit without the high-end drawback you're giving the character more of a break than the Real Weapon Limitation is worth, and then you're into either handwaving or else recosting everything, both of which I wanted to avoid.

 

Now, speaking more generally, it seems to me that our discussion may have veered into consideration of game mechanic comparisons without accounting for the role-playing and storytelling aspects of the game. In the real world how many terrorist cells, paramilitary groups, or even military squads routinely walk around carrying tank-busting ordnance? Even taking the issue of availability out of the equation, such equipment would be on hand only if the group in question expected to need it, for a specific mission or because they anticipated running into hostile armored vehicles or the like. In gaming terms, the use of such items should be story driven. We try to tailor the opponents our PCs face to their current power level, rationalizing why they don't confront opponents who are out of their league, e.g. the heroes aren't yet high-profile enough or considered a sufficient threat. Why should that be any different for military-grade firepower brought to bear against them? If your beginning PCs are not yet up to the challenge of such weaponry, it's not unrealistic for them not to be faced with it. By the time the heroes are taken seriously enough for the LAW rockets to be brought out, they've become tough and skilled enough to handle such a threat.

 

As usual, IMHO and YMMV.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Now' date=' speaking more generally, it seems to me that our discussion may have veered into consideration of game mechanic comparisons without accounting for the role-playing and storytelling aspects of the game. In the real world how many terrorist cells, paramilitary groups, or even military squads routinely walk around carrying tank-busting ordnance? Even taking the issue of availability out of the equation, such equipment would be on hand only if the group in question expected to need it, for a specific mission or because they anticipated running into hostile armored vehicles or the like. In gaming terms, the use of such items should be [b']story driven[/b]. We try to tailor the opponents our PCs face to their current power level, rationalizing why they don't confront opponents who are out of their league, e.g. the heroes aren't yet high-profile enough or considered a sufficient threat. Why should that be any different for military-grade firepower brought to bear against them? If your beginning PCs are not yet up to the challenge of such weaponry, it's not unrealistic for them not to be faced with it. By the time the heroes are taken seriously enough for the LAW rockets to be brought out, they've become tough and skilled enough to handle such a threat.

 

As usual, IMHO and YMMV.

I think that's an entirely reasonable approach. In the source material (both comic and film) the military often starts significantly undergunned. Witness the US Army initially using M16's to fight Godzilla in the 1998 remake. Only later did they bring in anti-tank weapons and finally missiles to kill the 20-story-high lizard.

 

How comparatively powerful the military is going to be with relation to supers is really an issue of campaign design rather than character design. If you envision a Marvel-like campaign the military will be a significant threat to most supers. In a more DC-like campaign the military will be relatively much less powerful compared to high-end supers like Superman or Darkseid.

 

I would suggest that it's not really going to be feasible to make official Hero writeups of real-world military weaponry universally applicable to all Champions campaigns. The GM and players should discuss this and decide how they want to rank compared to the military hardware extant in their specific campaign.

[David Blue]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Working on some paramilitary guys today, I found the weak spot in these rules. None of them will give supers a chance against the typical heavy weapons used by the military.

 

As written, a LAW Rocket is a 6 1/2d6 AP RKA Explosion with a +1 STUN multiplier. That will turn most supers into a smear on the ground - 23 BODY versus 1/2 resistant defenses, with a minimum 46 STUN assuming an average BODY roll (or 69 STUN assuming a roll of 3 on the die). Granted, it takes an extra phase to fire, but even a near miss is going to drop anything short of a brick with hardened defenses (and the brick will probably be stunned). I understand the need for the high BODY and AP to blow through a tank, but the Increased STUN multiplier is simply overkill.

 

I had to tone down the LAW when working up a paramilitary guy - dropped it to 6d6, stated that the AP portion only works versus the target hit (not everyone else in the radius), and removed the increased STUN multiple. Even so, I pray that the supers see the guy and stop him before he fires...

 

So, what do other people do to address this issue? Change the stats on the weapons? Let the chips fall where they may? Just avoid using realistic heavy weapons altogether?

Restatting everything would be way too much work.

 

Letting the chips wall where they may works reasonably well for dumb bricks with very high resistant defenses and regeneration. Mighty Rogg is based on the Hulk, Ang Lee movie version. He's supposed to fight the army, but because of the way Hero system works, they flatten him, and it's not even a fight: one pass and he's out like a baby. But since he's back to full body by the time he wakes up, and his personality is not such that he has to internalize and be dejected by the fact that he gets one punched, who cares? I just play him in character and in genre, minus the bit where after he roars his defiance and the army takes its first shot he's still standing. The gamemaster was kind of shocked that the game system does that, but I the player realized that Hero and supers are far apart as genres, so I wasn't bothered, and when you're happy what more is there in gaming?

 

Not using realistic heavy weapons at all is a good solution. Why should realistic heavy weapons show up when realistic, that is genre-appropriate, supers can't? Keep the villains using bizarre magic weapons, and basically pretend normal weapons don't exist. In another game I'm playing in, we'd be hosed if we ever had to fight soldiers, or really even cops, but as long as the big kids don't show up it's not an issue.

 

One thing about this: with magic or psionics, you want to be careful not to give mind control to anyone but a player who understands and will play with your campaign limits. Bribery and wealth might also be a problem.

[incrdbil]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

 

I think 6½d6 EX AP RKA is way too large for this weapon. I'd rate it as no more than 4 or 4½d6 AP RKA. Its replacement, the AT4, might conceivably be 6½d6 RKA AP but it's a much heavier and larger weapon with a significantly more powerful warhead.

 

 

To call either one Armor Piercing is a bit much. I'd save AP for rounds from main tank guns, or actual Anti-Tank missiles. The LAW or AT-4 is something I'd hope to hit a track with, or penetrate weaker facing armor on some APC.

 

That write up is just off the charts wrong.

[incrdbil]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Going back a bit to the basic concepts of this thread

 

 

 

 

Super Defenses.

 

Thats exactly what I'm doing in my current PBEM. Convergent thinking, but it really makes the superheroes stand out to military gear. I'm also blowing past standard power levels so my PC's will be tankbusters, and shaking off tank rounds like they should. In addition, using fixed stun multipliers, limiting stun multiplier effects has come in handy. I'm in agrrenace of removing the stun multiplier numbers from anti-tank rounds. Another option is letting hardened defenses negate stun multipliers level per level, or you could say real weapon stun multipliers increases dont work vs heroic defenses.

 

 

Super Attacks.

 

That I haven't done, but I'm going to implement it immediately. I think I might add it to damage for breaking through objects for knockback purposes, because I've always liked that 'punched through a building and came back fighting' scene.

 

 

Normal People:

 

I"ve been using the mook rule for a while, excluding important NPC's. and non-heroic characters just get knockdown.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Restatting everything would be way too much work.

 

Letting the chips wall where they may works reasonably well for dumb bricks with very high resistant defenses and regeneration. Mighty Rogg is based on the Hulk, Ang Lee movie version. He's supposed to fight the army, but because of the way Hero system works, they flatten him, and it's not even a fight: one pass and he's out like a baby. But since he's back to full body by the time he wakes up, and his personality is not such that he has to internalize and be dejected by the fact that he gets one punched, who cares? I just play him in character and in genre, minus the bit where after he roars his defiance and the army takes its first shot he's still standing. The gamemaster was kind of shocked that the game system does that, but I the player realized that Hero and supers are far apart as genres, so I wasn't bothered, and when you're happy what more is there in gaming?

 

Not using realistic heavy weapons at all is a good solution. Why should realistic heavy weapons show up when realistic, that is genre-appropriate, supers can't? Keep the villains using bizarre magic weapons, and basically pretend normal weapons don't exist. In another game I'm playing in, we'd be hosed if we ever had to fight soldiers, or really even cops, but as long as the big kids don't show up it's not an issue.

 

I have absolutely no problem with the way you run your games, and if your group is happy with it that's all that matters. But I'm confident that many HERO gamers would agree with me that there should be no significant disconnect between the supers genre and HERO System, and the perception that there is one is what I designed my rules options to address.

 

For the record, though, I assert that HERO certainly can make supers like those in the comic books, capable of taking on full military firepower as represented in the official writeups. You just have to build them with much higher Character Points, Damage Classes, and Defenses than most of the published example characters. That said, I also would find restatting everything to be too much work, so I strove to make my options easily graftable onto extant characters.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Going back a bit to the basic concepts of this thread

 

Thats exactly what I'm doing in my current PBEM. Convergent thinking, but it really makes the superheroes stand out to military gear. I'm also blowing past standard power levels so my PC's will be tankbusters, and shaking off tank rounds like they should. In addition, using fixed stun multipliers, limiting stun multiplier effects has come in handy. I'm in agrrenace of removing the stun multiplier numbers from anti-tank rounds. Another option is letting hardened defenses negate stun multipliers level per level, or you could say real weapon stun multipliers increases dont work vs heroic defenses.

 

Options like these for dealing with Stun Multipliers are definitely worth considering.

 

 

That I haven't done, but I'm going to implement it immediately. I think I might add it to damage for breaking through objects for knockback purposes, because I've always liked that 'punched through a building and came back fighting' scene.

 

I"ve been using the mook rule for a while, excluding important NPC's. and non-heroic characters just get knockdown.

 

I see the appeal in enhanced Knockback, but keep in mind that changing that may affect the Damage potential of Knocking Back someone into a wall or other solid object. You might want to play around with it a bit to find the right balance.

 

And I guess I've just standardized "mook rules" so that they're not simply a GM fiat. IME Knockdown instead of Knockback for Real Weapons and Mere Mortals gives supers another edge in combat.

[incrdbil]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

It is simpler than restatting all the vehicles simply to say really superheroic characters should probably start in the 500 to 750 point range. 12 DC and 60 active points, looking at the statted military hard ware is sort of the lower middle class of superheroes.

[assault]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

It is simpler than restatting all the vehicles simply to say really superheroic characters should probably start in the 500 to 750 point range. 12 DC and 60 active points' date=' looking at the statted military hard ware is sort of the lower middle class of superheroes.[/quote']

 

I agree. Of course many "not really superheroic" characters should be on similar point totals too. They just would spend their points differently.

 

I think that the combination of Damage Reduction and careful benchmarking would make a fairly wide range of characters viable at this point range. I'd certainly consider playing a 700 point "Batman", and wouldn't consider him outclassed by a "Superman" on the same point total. On the other hand, he would be vulnerable to weapons that the "Superman" wasn't.

 

On the other hand, there are characters that genuinely probably couldn't be stretched to that many points. Most of them are the non-powered types who don't have huge skillsets or much in the way of equipment. They would probably be viable characters too, of course - just ones that don't spend all their points!

 

I haven't seen many players who are quite that dedicated.

 

I might try some "back of the envelope" builds at the 700 point range, to see what can be done. Would folks be willing to call a 10d6 KA a tankbusting attack, or should I assume 12? Both do body to an Abrams, but the first doesn't necessarily trash it.

[incrdbil]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

 

I might try some "back of the envelope" builds at the 700 point range, to see what can be done. Would folks be willing to call a 10d6 KA a tankbusting attack, or should I assume 12? Both do body to an Abrams, but the first doesn't necessarily trash it.

 

Try a 10d6 RKA with the 'real armor' vs superpowers rules as described above. I'd say the tank would be effectively out of action.

[incrdbil]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

 

On the other hand, there are characters that genuinely probably couldn't be stretched to that many points. Most of them are the non-powered types who don't have huge skillsets or much in the way of equipment. They would probably be viable characters too, of course - just ones that don't spend all their points!

 

 

Yes--one of the probelms of smulating the comics genres is that teams often feature members of greatly differing power levels.

 

the only reason a Batman type character would approach a Superman would be to the extraordinary amount of points on bases and vehicles.

 

Meanwhile, a Hawkwoman..just isn't in the same league. Or Aquaman. But then those type of fights usually feature widely varying opposition, and like opponents match up--leaving the big guns heroesfor the tanks, while the lesser powers take on the soldiers.

[David Blue]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

That said' date=' I also would find restatting everything to be too much work, so I strove to make my options easily graftable onto extant characters.[/quote']

Thank you for doing so. Though I'm happy with what I'm doing now, in future I may want to do something else. It's good to have extra options.

[Spidey88]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I'm a little late to much of the discussion, but I'd like to put in my two cents:

 

 

In the superhero game I'm currently running, only the BODY damage from killing attacks that exceeds resistant defenses will produce STUN damage. Much like one of your house rules that you posted, Lord Liaden - it essestially means that if you bounce the bullet with no problems, there's no stunning of any kind. For example:

 

Officer Johnson is wearing a super-tech rigid bulletproof vest (8 rPD/8 rED). He's hit in the gut by a stray bullet from a high-powered rifle, which does 12 BODY. 4 BODY gets through (breaking several ribs) , which then has the STUN lotto applied. We'll say he rolls a 5, and takes 16 STUN - enough to knock the wind out of him and give him a hard time, but he's able to scramble off and get behind cover.

 

If he was shot in the leg, however, it'd be crippled, and he might very well pass out from the shock (I'd assume most of that BODY damage would be multiplied for STUN damage - I don't recall offhand if there's a limit on how much BODY can be applied to a limb).

 

This reduces the effectiveness of killing attacks in my game - but I don't really mind, since it's not really darker than Bronze Age stuff at its worst. (I don't think any of the PCs have killing attacks of any kind, and I'm fine with it.)

 

 

Also, I don't know how they're written up offhand, but any conventional firearm should have the "does no knockback" limitation (or at least very limited knockback) - at least if they're supposed to be fairly realistic (there's only so much force a teensy little bullet can impart to a big-ol person, no matter how fast it's going). Based on that truth (and ignoring expected cinematic effects when it comes to bullets fired by mooks and normal cops), you should be able to get shot and not really budge much. I could see being knocked off-balance by a bullet, but you really shouldn't get knocked around at all. This is what I tend to go with, unless we're dealing with a hero or villain's "super-gun"( which probably ignores physics anyway), or if you've got a character whose schtick is being a gun-bunny. (Going with this assumption also means that established weapon writeups may have to be jiggered with slightly - and I can understand why you'd want to avoid it, L.L.)

 

 

A combination of these two things means that if you've got a character in my game who's got a rPD of 15, he can walk through a hail of fire from low-to-mid caliber handguns and not suffer a scratch, or pass out in the process.

 

 

So far it's worked alright for me, but there haven't been many incidents with conventional weapons - are there any factors you guys could see (that I've possibly missed) that would throw a huge wrench in the way I've been doing things?

[assault]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I wrote:

I might try some "back of the envelope" builds at the 700 point range' date=' to see what can be done. Would folks be willing to call a 10d6 KA a tankbusting attack, or should I assume 12? Both do body to an Abrams, but the first doesn't necessarily trash it.[/quote']

 

I've done a bit of this. It's pretty tricky balancing vulnerability to low end attacks with not dying against high end ones, when the high end ones are 150AP!

 

I still think it's possible, but my original approach (3/4 Damage Reduction) is just too brutal at the bottom end. It simply wouldn't be possible for a Joker-type to take out a Batman built this way (or vice versa). (I'm not particularly concerned about mooks not being able to do it!)

 

I'll keep fiddling around whenever I get a moment. There must be an answer!

[David Blue]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I wrote:

 

 

I've done a bit of this. It's pretty tricky balancing vulnerability to low end attacks with not dying against high end ones, when the high end ones are 150AP!

 

I still think it's possible, but my original approach (3/4 Damage Reduction) is just too brutal at the bottom end. It simply wouldn't be possible for a Joker-type to take out a Batman built this way (or vice versa). (I'm not particularly concerned about mooks not being able to do it!)

 

I'll keep fiddling around whenever I get a moment. There must be an answer!

Did you try 1/2 Damage Reduction, and if so how did it go for you?

[assault]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

After more fiddling, some conclusions:

 

"Normal" characters should be pretty much taken out by 10d6 KAs and/or 30d6 normal attacks. Not killed, but knocked out of the fight for at least a while.

 

This can be adequately modelled by 1/2 Damage Reduction and moderate standard defences. A warning, though: buy up your Body!

 

This should also allow characters to be acceptably vulnerable to low powered characters too.

 

I suggest that GMs be cautious when designing scenarios that involve combat. Most combats probably shouldn't be at the top end of the power scale!

 

Incidentally, if your villains are mostly built along these lines too, the Batman-types can fight them effectively, and not be irrelevant.

 

Building a brick at this kind of power level might be a bit tricky, as it requires really throwing the points at both their ability to do damage and their ability to suck it up.

 

This suggests that Hulk types might be more common than Superman types. Staying very focussed on the core elements of a character is often a good idea.

 

Funnily enough, of course, the Action Comics #1 version of Superman isn't an especially tough character under this model.

 

Upgrading existing characters shouldn't be too much drama. Basically you are just adding extra DEF and DC.

 

One thing I should note: sidekicks can be very handy when your character is likely to get beaten to a pulp regularly. Just make sure they have a compatible blood type, and know how to drive the Bat-Ambulance!

[Psylint]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Some ideas I've used:

 

1. All normal or military weapons take the beam limitation, no knockback, and use standard effect. It speeds things up and allows players to better plan for dealing with "normal" weapons.

2. Apply the standard effect rule to the Stun Multiplier Die roll (3).

3. Spend more on "sucking it up"

 

Peace

[David Blue]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I used to run with a rule that everybody liked so much that all the people I knew adopted it in their games: all super-attacks are twice as effective if fired at someone without a super-body.

 

I defined a super-body as 100pts or more of characteristics bought straight or in effect. (That is, a battlesuit counts. But if you don't want to be reduced to jam by the first attack that's fired at you while you're out of your suit, buy your hundred.)

 

This worked because it was a very simple rule, and everybody understood what kind of player characters were wanted and why, and players could use the rule to their advantage and I and other gamemasters were fine with that. If you wanted to graduate from mook-ness by buying up your PRE and COM, OK, I figured good-looking and impressive people were in genre, so go for it. If you wanted to make your DNPC Competent to get their hundred and be easier to rescue alive, great.

 

Super-bodies were visible if you knew what you were looking for. The special effect was that someone with a super-body had the most common superpower: the ability to look great in a superhero costume. If you were a "hardbody", well, you were a hard body. I figured that was in genre too, and everybody seemed to agree.

 

I'm a strong believer in simple solutions and in starting with the source material.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

One thing I should note: sidekicks can be very handy when your character is likely to get beaten to a pulp regularly. Just make sure they have a compatible blood type' date=' and know how to drive the Bat-Ambulance! [/quote']

 

 

And after your character has reached his golden years, his sidekick can hook him up to the bat-dialysis machine and change his bat-colostomy bag!

[JmOz]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Yes--one of the probelms of smulating the comics genres is that teams often feature members of greatly differing power levels.

 

the only reason a Batman type character would approach a Superman would be to the extraordinary amount of points on bases and vehicles.

 

Meanwhile, a Hawkwoman..just isn't in the same league. Or Aquaman. But then those type of fights usually feature widely varying opposition, and like opponents match up--leaving the big guns heroesfor the tanks, while the lesser powers take on the soldiers.

 

In defense of aquaman, He is ALOT more points than people think, once you throw in his perqs...

[assault]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

In defense of aquaman' date=' He is ALOT more points than people think, once you throw in his perqs...[/quote']

 

Hawkman too. (At least the Silver Age version.) He can talk to birds, has a lot of "wing tricks" and... a starship! And that's not all he has...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

I apologise for bringing this thread back to life, but discussions with some folks off-boards about some of the issues raised here has led me to formulate another optional variation on my rules for Super Defenses. In regards to finding the damage threshold below which an attack with Real Weapon will do Reduced Penetration or No damage to a target with Super Defenses, it was pointed out to me that allowing Armor Piercing to halve Defenses before determining whether the weapon could do BODY to the target past DEF gives AP attacks an edge over un-Advantaged attacks. Comparing an AP attack to one with Base Damage of equal Damage Class, e.g. 6d6 Killing (Standard Effect 18 BODY/maximum 36 BODY) versus 4d6 AP Killing (SE 12 BODY/max 24 BODY), the BODY total is reduced by 1/3. OTOH un-Hardened Defenses would be cut in half against the AP attack, e.g. 20 DEF becomes 10. If using those numbers to determine whether the Defense counts as "super" against that attack, AP is noticeably more effective. And the military weapons mentioned earlier on this thread as being problematic re my rules are usually Armor Piercing.

 

My suggestion would be to treat Damage Class-boosting Advantages such as Armor Piercing and Penetrating as instead increasing the Base Damage, only to determine whether the attack could do BODY with a maximum/Standard Effect roll. So the 4d6 AP example above would be treated as 6d6 non-AP for this purpose. If it couldn't do BODY to the target past Defenses with Standard Effect, it would be treated as Reduced Penetration but with the Armor Piercing advantage then applied as normal, e.g. 2x2d6 AP. (Any of the modifications suggested by others on this thread could be applied here instead or as well, e.g. -1 Stun Multiplier.)

 

The downside to this approach is that Hardened Defenses then become less effective when determining if they count as Super against attacks with such Advantages, so in that case you might want them to simply negate the Advantaged attack as usual. Obviously this option would require a bit more pre-game prep to establish the applicable numbers for all the Attacks to be used, and switching for Hardened Defenses during a game would add complexity; but it would make Armor Piercing attacks (and those with other Advantages that the GM might also consider applicable, such as Penetrating) less of a threat, make Hardened Defenses less of a priority, and increase the durability of lower-powered characters against such weapons.

 

Did I explain that clearly?

[input.jack]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

In defense of aquaman' date=' He is ALOT more points than people think, once you throw in his perqs...[/quote']

 

His perqs, his superstrength, his resistant defenses (he IS a Brick, you know)...

 

Ill never understand why so many people believe that Aquaman is actually just a guy with fish telepathy, the way he was portrayed in the "Superfriends". He has all the same powers as Namor except that instead of Flight, he can have blue whales belly-flop on people he doesnt like.

 

[assault]

Re: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world

 

Ill never understand why so many people believe that Aquaman is actually just a guy with fish telepathy' date=' the way he was portrayed in the "Superfriends". He has all the same powers as Namor except that instead of Flight, he can have [b']blue whales belly-flop on people he doesnt like[/b].

 

This would be because the Silver Age Aquaman exhibited no powers except the fish telepathy (and the living underwater thing).

 

He never used to use superstrength, and always got a bunch of whales to do the heavy lifting when he needed superstrength effects. He also showed no signs of "invulnerability".

 

He was still built on a boatload of points though. Just like Hawkman.