"Gun Fu" Power idea

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

Its not "realistic" effect, nor is it intended to be. Its meant to replicate a cinematic ability. You could say similar things about any Super Skill construct. One of the suggested ways to model it is Change Enviorment which isn't a Power defense affect.

 

Would you have a problem with same exact special effect modelled as limited DCV levels or is it just the entire special effect doesn't appeal to asthetically?

 

At least Change Environement lists a defense: Life Support.

 

What is the defense against this proposed build?

[nexus]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

At least Change Environement lists a defense: Life Support.

 

So does the Adjustment Power build: Power Defense and in a setting where characters can buy powers (the only one where its likely for this kind of a build to come up) its perfectly valid for a character to get Power Defense.

 

Also if you use a Adjustment power, your opponent still has to "hit you" and use a attack action to set it up, they're going to run out of bullets at some point and they've still not hit you. I actually agree with bigdamnhero that an adjustment effect is probably a poor choice because they would lower your target's DCV as well, which doesn't really fit the effect.

 

 

What is the defense against this proposed build?

 

The same "Defense" as any other purchase of DCV levels... OCV levels.

 

Basically, I don't have a problem with a construct like this as long its makes for an interesting character and story and its use in reasonable manner. If the Gm wants to screw you over, they can do it. But ot sounds like you have a problem with the basic concept, which is fine; tastes vary and I doubt anything I'd say would change your mind.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

At least Change Environement lists a defense: Life Support.

True, tho I'm not sure it would apply in this case. Unless you allow "Safe Environment: Bullets" as Life Support. I would probably substitute a sufficiently high rPD as a defense.

 

So does the Adjustment Power build: Power Defense

Right. And as a GM, if I know the PCs in my game average, say, 10 points of Power Def, I will build any adjustment attacks accordingly. If I know none of them have any Power Def... I will build any adjustment attacks accordingly. If the GM's out to screw you, he has infinite resources to do it with.

 

I actually agree with bigdamnhero that an adjustment effect is probably a poor choice because they would lower your target's DCV as well' date=' which doesn't really fit the effect. [/quote']

At the risk of disasgreeing with myself, you could also Drain/Suppress DEX with the Limitation "Only To Calculate OCV" or something.

[nexus]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

 

At the risk of disasgreeing with myself, you could also Drain/Suppress DEX with the Limitation "Only To Calculate OCV" or something.

 

Absolutely, I was thinking along the lines that migiht be making things more complicated than they really had to be since there were other options.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

True, tho I'm not sure it would apply in this case. Unless you allow "Safe Environment: Bullets" as Life Support. I would probably substitute a sufficiently high rPD as a defense.

 

How does having 'a sufficiently high rPD' keep a target's DCV from being reduced when the sfx is essentially intimidation by way of superior firepower? That's still a PRE check of some sort. Having the rPD should provide a bonus to the check but not a flat defense.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

So does the Adjustment Power build: Power Defense and in a setting where characters can buy powers (the only one where its likely for this kind of a build to come up) its perfectly valid for a character to get Power Defense.

 

Also if you use a Adjustment power, your opponent still has to "hit you" and use a attack action to set it up, they're going to run out of bullets at some point and they've still not hit you. I actually agree with bigdamnhero that an adjustment effect is probably a poor choice because they would lower your target's DCV as well, which doesn't really fit the effect.

 

 

 

 

The same "Defense" as any other purchase of DCV levels... OCV levels.

 

Basically, I don't have a problem with a construct like this as long its makes for an interesting character and story and its use in reasonable manner. If the Gm wants to screw you over, they can do it. But ot sounds like you have a problem with the basic concept, which is fine; tastes vary and I doubt anything I'd say would change your mind.

 

I guess what bothers me about this type of aproach to modelling otherwise mundane abilities is that it is essentially making certain abilities only available to characters who paid points for them even when the sfx should be available to anyone (pointing a weapon around a corner and pulling the trigger wildly). The approach reminds me of the 1st ed AD&D specific class abilities like 'move silently' and 'back stab' too much.

 

Implimenting this type of approach to gaming without copious upfront explaination can lead to Player-GM conflicts when the player has read the book and took a generalist approach to creating his character. If later in the game the player's character encounters an NPC with this ability he might want to attempt resist the effect and maybe even use the same 'tactic' against the enemy. But even though his character may have a 20+ PRE he gets no chance to avoid or use this 'tactical' effect unless he purchased Power Defense which is extremely uncommon in the genre. And he can't use this tactic because it now considered a 'super-skill'.

[Robyn]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

How does having 'a sufficiently high rPD' keep a target's DCV from being reduced when the sfx is essentially intimidation by way of superior firepower? That's still a PRE check of some sort. Having the rPD should provide a bonus to the check but not a flat defense.

 

If the firepower isn't "superior" to their defenses, why should the enemy get a PRE attack at all?

 

Imagine someone pointing a small water pistol at you, having demonstrated that it has barely enough pressure in it to convey the water to your location, much less strike with any impact.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

How does having 'a sufficiently high rPD' keep a target's DCV from being reduced when the sfx is essentially intimidation by way of superior firepower? That's still a PRE check of some sort. Having the rPD should provide a bonus to the check but not a flat defense.

Um...because if you're bulletproof, you don't care if people are shooting at you?

 

I guess what bothers me about this type of aproach to modelling otherwise mundane abilities is that it is essentially making certain abilities only available to characters who paid points for them even when the sfx should be available to anyone (pointing a weapon around a corner and pulling the trigger wildly).

Valid point. And if you feel that's something all characters should be able to do in your campaign, then PRE Attacks is probably a decent way to model it. I've allowed "spray & pray" PRE attacks in games before.

 

But the idea behind this super-skill is to model a character who is significantly better at providing suppression fire than most people. Now you could model that with additional PRE (Only for Suppression Fire-based PRE Attacks) if you wanted. But here's the thing... if someone's shooting at you accurately with automatic weapons fire, keeping your head down is not a sign of being intimidated -- it's a sign of not being suicidal. So if the shooter is capable of that level of accuracy, having a high PRE isn't necessarily all that relevant.

 

Implimenting this type of approach to gaming without copious upfront explaination can lead to Player-GM conflicts when the player has read the book and took a generalist approach to creating his character.

Perhaps, but you could say the same about nearly any super skill in any of the books. Of course the GM needs to talk to his players before implementing them! (Not each super-skill individually, but in general.) But assuming that you're allowing super-skills in a game, I really don't see temporarily suppressing a few OCV levels as terribly unfair, unbalancing, or out of genre. YMMV.

[nexus]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

I guess what bothers me about this type of aproach to modelling otherwise mundane abilities is that it is essentially making certain abilities only available to characters who paid points for them even when the sfx should be available to anyone (pointing a weapon around a corner and pulling the trigger wildly). The approach reminds me of the 1st ed AD&D specific class abilities like 'move silently' and 'back stab' too much.

 

The Pre/Blazing Away method is still available or he could use straight up Surpression Fire. None of these abilities go away because of this construct. The character that paid for this ability gets a superior version because he paid points. If someone pays points for Martial Dodge, that doesn't mean the ability to Dodger is taken away from every other character. Getting Invisibility as Super Stealth doesn't mean that no one else can use Stealth.

 

If the player is in a game where such things are Super Skills and Cinematic abilites are available and knows it it would be similar to complaining in a Champions game that someone used Energy Blast on you and you don't have one. I wouldn't call it "copious" upfront explanation to say you are allowing cinematic super skills in this game. Not telling the players something like at the beginning would be flat out misleading them about the nature of the game. "Dark Champions" encompasses many styles and levels of play. For some abilities like this are appropriate, for others they are not. What type of game the Gm is running should be discussed during intital development and character generation.

 

The technique is an improvement on base method but something you paid points for should be better than something everyone gets by default. Its not creating "class abilities" its a certain effect that ANYONE can spend their points on if they think it fits their character and can be emulated in a lesser fashion. The ability was initially conceived for a PC, not an NPC.

 

"Power Defense" is totally unknown in any genre. Its a Power, a metagame concept, that describes certain effects. One character in my own Dark Champions gamees has Power Defense with special effect of "Heroic Will". Most of the PCs in full on Champions games I've run have not "Power Defense" because they have no reason to have it. If the Gm feels there is not enough adequate defense he can either disallow the effect or include a Limitation that it doesn't work against X Pre character or what ever. Personally, I wouldn't model this effect as an Adjustment Power since they're a relativelyt few sfx, IMO, that should effect it and aforemention DCV, Dex skills, etc, issue but that could be handled by adding limitations.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

I understand the intent behind this superskill, and could see it being used in a very cinematic game with very little realisim, but personally I'd do it differently.

Right now this construct suffers the same problem as the almost totally worthless/abstract "Blazing Away" maneuver. Both serve the purpose of expending charges from your gun to cause an effect (Added PRE attack for Blazing Away, Extra DCV for your construct) while ignoring the primary purpose of those charges.. to do damage. The idea that the spray of bullets gives a specfic bonus without any chance of causing actual damage is a bit too abstract for my tastes. By contrast, the actual Supression Fire maneuver fufils the same objective with purely mechanical/realistic effects... no bonuses to attackers DCV, No implicit PRE bonus... but if a target exposes himself in the suppressed area, he can get hit. If he can take the hit with impunity, he is free to ignore the supression fire.

 

In short... If I had a player who wanted a Super Skill related to this, I'd allow it, but would mostly insist that the power be built around the existing Supression Fire maneuver. Negative Skill levels, Change Environment, extra PRE or a combonation of the above, but base the core mechanic on Supression fire so that there are actual teeth to the maneuver.

[nexus]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

I understand the intent behind this superskill, and could see it being used in a very cinematic game with very little realisim, but personally I'd do it differently.

Right now this construct suffers the same problem as the almost totally worthless/abstract "Blazing Away" maneuver. Both serve the purpose of expending charges from your gun to cause an effect (Added PRE attack for Blazing Away, Extra DCV for your construct) while ignoring the primary purpose of those charges.. to do damage. The idea that the spray of bullets gives a specfic bonus without any chance of causing actual damage is a bit too abstract for my tastes. By contrast, the actual Supression Fire maneuver fufils the same objective with purely mechanical/realistic effects... no bonuses to attackers DCV, No implicit PRE bonus... but if a target exposes himself in the suppressed area, he can get hit. If he can take the hit with impunity, he is free to ignore the supression fire.

 

In short... If I had a player who wanted a Super Skill related to this, I'd allow it, but would mostly insist that the power be built around the existing Supression Fire maneuver. Negative Skill levels, Change Environment, extra PRE or a combination of the above, but base the core mechanic on Supression fire so that there are actual teeth to the maneuver.

 

Valid point and it is meant for very cinematic games. One of the reasons I built it as Limited DCV levels was so the character could abort to it or use it between their active Phases or in reaction to surprise attacks or without using an Attack Action so they could, perform an acrobatic full move across an open space while hosing fire at their opponents or other affects like that and since its DCV levels you use it with the Suppression Fire manuver if you wanted. There's a metagame difference between just throwing up the limited DCV levels and acutally using the Suppression fire manuver, but narratively, SFX wise they look much the same.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

Valid point and it is meant for very cinematic games. One of the reasons I built it as Limited DCV levels was so the character could abort to it or use it between their active Phases or in reaction to surprise attacks or without using an Attack Action so they could' date=' perform an acrobatic full move across an open space while hosing fire at their opponents or other affects like that and since its DCV levels you use it with the Suppression Fire manuver if you wanted. There's a metagame difference between just throwing up the limited DCV levels and acutally using the Suppression fire manuver, but narratively, SFX wise they look much the same.[/quote']

 

Sure I get the idea, but I often findf that these sort of abstract constructs might be approached from another angle that enchances their function and realisim.

In this case....

You want the Neo-like ability to spray bullets as a defnesive maneuver while still acrobatically Full Moving. The problem is that the system is designed to prevent offensive actions while Full Moving, with a few notable exceptions.

The problem with an abstraction such as the one here is that it breaks down in many logical situations... If you can accurately spray bullets at a single hex in order to force the inhabitants of that hex to lose effectiveness, you logically should be able to also accurately spray bullets into that same hex to do damage... say, if you were trying to blow open a door.

 

Upon further pondering this sounds to me, once all the wheat is seperated from the chafe, like the Combat Running talent from Dark Champions with RSR Acrobatics (allowing a "full move" with only a half phase action) and perhaps Power Skill :Gun Tricks and a handfull of Combat Skill levels with RSR:Gun tricks. This allows you to perform the exact same actions using the existing maneuvers but also gives the logical flexibility implied by such an ability.

[nexus]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

Most of the Super skills are illogical when you really examine them but, IMO, that's not the point. They're not logical, they're an expression of action movie/anime physics. Good for a gme that's meant to have that sort of feel, but for a realistic game not appropriate at all. I know the game is designed to prevent "offensive" actions in certain situations. So this is a Defensive action that just looks like it an Offensive one.

 

And the character can still spray bullets to do damage, the Suppression Fire, Blazing Away manuvers are still there, its just something they have to do on their active phases and can't Abort to at least not without spending more points on some kind of Triggered Attack. If' I'm reading your construct right, its not something you could abort since you'd need an Attack action to use it? Also, the Acrobatic part was just flavor. Sometimes character employing this effect just walk or don't even move at all.

 

I think it boils down to a difference in preference. I don't mind an abstraction for an interesting visual, other might differ.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

Most of the Super skills are illogical when you really examine them but, IMO, that's not the point. They're not logical, they're an expression of action movie/anime physics. Good for a gme that's meant to have that sort of feel, but for a realistic game not appropriate at all. I know the game is designed to prevent "offensive" actions in certain situations. So this is a Defensive action that just looks like it an Offensive one.

 

And the character can still spray bullets to do damage, the Suppression Fire, Blazing Away manuvers are still there, its just something they have to do on their active phases and can't Abort to at least not without spending more points on some kind of Triggered Attack.

 

I think it boils down to a difference in preference. I don't mind an abstraction for an interesting visual, other might differ.

 

Yeppers. This is a classic YMMV situation.

Funny you should mention Trigger. I meant to myself... specifically that the maneuver as written makes me want to attach an auto-resetting Triggered attack as the "punishment" for ignoring the defensive hail of bullets.

 

But as you said...it comes down to personal tastes and style. I'm never comfortable with anything that makes bullets become magically harmless to the enviroment. When I think of this power in action, I think of the firefight in the marble columned hallway near the end of the Matrix. A metric buttload of weapons fire was going down, with most of it simply chewing the Body away from the huge rock columns. For my tastes, I'm firmly in the "A firefight in a closed room means the bullets all hit SOMETHING, even if just a wall" school of thought, and thus would require something to reflect such. If I was doing a wild cinematic game, I'd still limit the construct in some way to reflect that an appropriately tough opponent might be able to ignore the effects.

 

Oh, and folk might want to check out the "Grace under fire" optional rules in DC if looking for a mechanic to reflect how this effect would work for a character without the superskill.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

So this is a Defensive action that just looks like it an Offensive one.

Cuz as we all know, the best Defense is a good Offense.

[nexus]

Re: "Gun Fu" Power idea

 

For my tastes, I'm firmly in the "A firefight in a closed room means the bullets all hit SOMETHING, even if just a wall" school of thought, and thus would require something to reflect such. If I was doing a wild cinematic game, I'd still limit the construct in some way to reflect that an appropriately tough opponent might be able to ignore the effects.

 

Sure, the bullets hit something. I'm not suggesting that they don't but what they hit is just background material and special effects. The player or the gm should feel free to describe as much cosmetic damage to the surroundings. It might even make a difference in some situations, like any special effect. The sparks and debris pinging and sproinging near the target's head and such could be considering part of the effect.