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THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..


Barsavon

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

Page 225 of Hudson City.

And it's a sick, munchkinesque power-gamer fantasy trip. Yeah, I know it's Steve Long's favorite character, but I would be more interested in a write-up of the original character as it was when it entered play -- that I could use. The Harbinger, as it is presented in HC:TUA is completely unusable in any campaign I will ever run. By contrast, Dr. Destroyer (4th Ed.) was infinitely usable and made several appearances because of his obvious weaknesses. *Sigh* Sorry for venting, but I've always had issues with this one.

 

Matt "Still-looking-for-the-words-of-the-prophets-in-bathroom-stalls" Frisbee

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

The Harbinger is over the top because he's supposed to be a force of nature - you don't defeat him' date=' you survive him, or thwart him, depending on if he's after *you* or not.[/quote']

 

There is no surviving the Harbinger of Justice. The way he's written, if he's after you . . you will die.

 

Period.

Case closed.

Go pick out a casket.

 

Now, it *might* be possible to thwart him but if he's played correctly, you can't even do that. 'Cause eventually, he will get you.

 

As was stated, he's too over the top for most DC games and he's pretty brutal for most Champions games (at least I think so, it's been awhile since I looked at him. Once I saw the write up, I shook my head and moved on).

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

I will not state thoughts on motive but I do feel that he is overpowered for a Dark Champions Campeign. I mean he could and would kill Bats as is...

 

Batman would be a joke for him. He could stun Superman with all those RKA + 8DC offensive shot (admitedly cut down to "just" +4DC because it's a weapon) + 2-1/2 extra RKA damage (simulating the Deadly Shooter skill) from his VPP, autofire-with-minimal-penalties, called shots-with-no-penalty, to the head.

 

By my math, if BMK is using a 2d6 RKA, that means he can do an autofire (5) 6d6 RKA to the head with no penalty. If he rolls "average" each bullet does (21 Body x 5) 105 STUN and 42 BODY before defenses.

 

No wonder Dr Destroyer stays away from Hudson City...

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

Yah but Batman would school superman anyways, so my statement stands :)

 

Seriously I do thing that the character is way over the top...

 

Then again I am fairly certain that if I owned the company there would be an Archer who would be way over the top (Nuclear warhead for the win alex)

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

Yah but Batman would school superman anyways, so my statement stands :)

 

Seriously I do thing that the character is way over the top...

 

I'd like to retract my earlier criticism of the writeup.

 

I'm reminded of the time our group found a write up for an NPC the GM "accidentally" left out when we were in high school. And with us having the maturity expected of gamers in high school, we gladly examined the forbidden knowledge.

 

The write up was deliberately inaccurate and way overpowered. We had a hard time believing that we were expected to take on this guy and survive much less win. Needless to say, we were very scared and respectful of the villain when we ran into him. But then, in the end, despite his "reputation" he wasn't so tough. The truth is that we could have taken him on sooner, but we were too scared to rush in.

 

The Harbinger is a legend to everyone who has ever played Dark Champions. He's the symbol; The guy on the cover; The one who triggered the genre. Much bigger than your PC or my PC. And this is the way he must be perceived.

 

The reality may be different. I supect most GMs will tone him down if they plan to use him. But the players don't need to know that. I personally think the Harbinger should weigh in at about ~600 pts. But if you print him at that value, then the perception is that the Harbinger is beatable. A PC can brag that he took out the Harbinger and maintain some credibility. A team from a Champions crossover can easily put him in jail and fly back to Millenium City with no scars to show for it.

 

At 1100 pts as written, no one dares mess with the Harbinger. Even Dr D. has to think about it. And if a player brags that he took on the Harbinger and won, no one believes him, or he is dismissed as also having a character in the munchkin range.

 

Steve has truly immortalised his old character: the general consensus among those of us who know how the HERO mechanics work say it's overblown, but the official writeup is there in black and white. Nearly everyone will scale him down, but no one knows by how much. The details you need to know as a GM are in the text portions, not the characteristics. You don't get his real name, or his real origin, so he's still a mystery- a ghost story to all of us. A vigilante bogeyman.

 

The character is in the Allies section- it was written with the intention that the players, not just the GM, see his write up. And be afraid of it; because when you run into the Blue Moon Killer, as a friend or as a foe, in a Dark Champions or in a four colour game, you always have to consider the possibility that the GM might be using him as is... Either way, the Blue Moon Killer keeps the killer rep and Steve doesn't have to listen to wankers brag about how they took down his old character at cons.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't mess with the Blue Moon Killer! I heard he almost took out Dr Destroyer & Batman once... and then he stunned Superman! ;)

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

I'd like to retract my earlier criticism of the writeup.

 

I'm reminded of the time our group found a write up for an NPC the GM "accidentally" left out when we were in high school. And with us having the maturity expected of gamers in high school, we gladly examined the forbidden knowledge.

 

The write up was deliberately inaccurate and way overpowered. We had a hard time believing that we were expected to take on this guy and survive much less win. Needless to say, we were very scared and respectful of the villain when we ran into him. But then, in the end, despite his "reputation" he wasn't so tough. The truth is that we could have taken him on sooner, but we were too scared to rush in.

 

The Harbinger is a legend to everyone who has ever played Dark Champions. He's the symbol; The guy on the cover; The one who triggered the genre. Much bigger than your PC or my PC. And this is the way he must be perceived.

 

The reality may be different. I supect most GMs will tone him down if they plan to use him. But the players don't need to know that. I personally think the Harbinger should weigh in at about ~600 pts. But if you print him at that value, then the perception is that the Harbinger is beatable. A PC can brag that he took out the Harbinger and maintain some credibility. A team from a Champions crossover can easily put him in jail and fly back to Millenium City with no scars to show for it.

 

At 1100 pts as written, no one dares mess with the Harbinger. Even Dr D. has to think about it. And if a player brags that he took on the Harbinger and won, no one believes him, or he is dismissed as also having a character in the munchkin range.

 

Steve has truly immortalised his old character: the general consensus among those of us who know how the HERO mechanics work say it's overblown, but the official writeup is there in black and white. Nearly everyone will scale him down, but no one knows by how much. The details you need to know as a GM are in the text portions, not the characteristics. The character is in the Allies section- it was written with the intention that the players, not just the GM, see his write up. And be afraid of it; because when you run into the Blue Moon Killer, as a friend or as a foe, in a Dark Champions or in a four colour game, you always have to consider the possibility that the GM might be using him as is... Either way, the Blue Moon Killer keeps the killer rep and Steve doesn't have to listen to wankers brag about how they took down his old character at cons.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't mess with the Blue Moon Killer! I heard he almost took out Dr Destroyer & Batman once... and then he stunned Superman! ;)

 

That is some interesting ideas, don't know if I agree with them or not, but definatly food for thought. I have given you some rep for this interesting idea.

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

I'd like to retract my earlier criticism of the writeup.

 

I'm reminded of the time our group found a write up for an NPC the GM "accidentally" left out when we were in high school. And with us having the maturity expected of gamers in high school, we gladly examined the forbidden knowledge.

 

The write up was deliberately inaccurate and way overpowered. We had a hard time believing that we were expected to take on this guy and survive much less win. Needless to say, we were very scared and respectful of the villain when we ran into him. But then, in the end, despite his "reputation" he wasn't so tough. The truth is that we could have taken him on sooner, but we were too scared to rush in.

 

The Harbinger is a legend to everyone who has ever played Dark Champions. He's the symbol; The guy on the cover; The one who triggered the genre. Much bigger than your PC or my PC. And this is the way he must be perceived.

 

The reality may be different. I supect most GMs will tone him down if they plan to use him. But the players don't need to know that. I personally think the Harbinger should weigh in at about ~600 pts. But if you print him at that value, then the perception is that the Harbinger is beatable. A PC can brag that he took out the Harbinger and maintain some credibility. A team from a Champions crossover can easily put him in jail and fly back to Millenium City with no scars to show for it.

 

At 1100 pts as written, no one dares mess with the Harbinger. Even Dr D. has to think about it. And if a player brags that he took on the Harbinger and won, no one believes him, or he is dismissed as also having a character in the munchkin range.

 

Steve has truly immortalised his old character: the general consensus among those of us who know how the HERO mechanics work say it's overblown, but the official writeup is there in black and white. Nearly everyone will scale him down, but no one knows by how much. The details you need to know as a GM are in the text portions, not the characteristics. The character is in the Allies section- it was written with the intention that the players, not just the GM, see his write up. And be afraid of it; because when you run into the Blue Moon Killer, as a friend or as a foe, in a Dark Champions or in a four colour game, you always have to consider the possibility that the GM might be using him as is... Either way, the Blue Moon Killer keeps the killer rep and Steve doesn't have to listen to wankers brag about how they took down his old character at cons.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't mess with the Blue Moon Killer! I heard he almost took out Dr Destroyer & Batman once... and then he stunned Superman! ;)

 

That was VERY well thought out. I'd rep you, but apparently I've already hit you recently,

The Blue Moon Killer is still the biggest Mary Sue character in the CU, but you've put it in perfect perspective.

Besides... If Steve wants his character to be the biggest bada$$ in the CU... well, he DID buy the bloody company and write the books....

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

That was VERY well thought out. I'd rep you, but apparently I've already hit you recently,

The Blue Moon Killer is still the biggest Mary Sue character in the CU, but you've put it in perfect perspective.

Besides... If Steve wants his character to be the biggest bada$$ in the CU... well, he DID buy the bloody company and write the books....

 

Thanks for the compliment.

 

Actually your first comment about BMK being "Mary Sue" is what got me thinking about it. HERO is generally "Mary Sue" free, so it didn't make sense that the Blue Moon Killer, of all people, would get this treatment. I suspect that Steve keeps the original character sheet locked up somewhere with DOJ's other sensitive info and that he has sworn his fellow players from that game to secrecy over the character's real identidy and point total (please don't confirm any of this if you're reading, Steve ;) ).

 

Oh, and for the record, the BMK has appeared once in my street level Supers game. There was no combat, but the 6 players w/400 pts colectivly treated him with the respect an 1100 pt character commands, even though I knew he was "only" ~600pts.

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

Thanks for the compliment.

 

Actually your first comment about BMK being "Mary Sue" is what got me thinking about it. HERO is generally "Mary Sue" free, so it didn't make sense that the Blue Moon Killer, of all people, would get this treatment. I suspect that Steve keeps the original character sheet locked up somewhere with DOJ's other sensitive info and that he has sworn his fellow players from that game to secrecy over the character's real identidy and point total (please don't confirm any of this if you're reading, Steve ;) ).

 

Oh, and for the record, the BMK has appeared once in my street level Supers game. There was no combat, but the 6 players w/400 pts colectivly treated him with the respect an 1100 pt character commands, even though I knew he was "only" ~600pts.

 

I've used him as an NPC once myself, as a "mentor" figure to a starting vigalante character. I didn't formalize his write up, but mentally edited him down to around the same scale you did.

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

I got Shaft some rep for the post. It puts the character in the proper perspective: "I'm bigger than you, cope." and quite frankly he's the original DC Character, with 20 or so years of play and genre development. He deserves to be the big guy on the block.

 

Oh, and the BMK is 1,289 points - closer to 1300 than 1100. But the ideas still stands.

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

Batman would be a joke for him. He could stun Superman with all those RKA + 8DC offensive shot (admitedly cut down to "just" +4DC because it's a weapon) + 2-1/2 extra RKA damage (simulating the Deadly Shooter skill) from his VPP, autofire-with-minimal-penalties, called shots-with-no-penalty, to the head.

 

By my math, if BMK is using a 2d6 RKA, that means he can do an autofire (5) 6d6 RKA to the head with no penalty. If he rolls "average" each bullet does (21 Body x 5) 105 STUN and 42 BODY before defenses.

 

No wonder Dr Destroyer stays away from Hudson City...

 

This is just an example of HERO giving multiple game mechanic options for simulating a singe effect (accurate shooting in this case). If the 'Deadly Shooter skill is being used then called shots should NOT be used. The same goes for Find Weakness for that matter. All 3 are just different mechanical ways of expressing the same effect. Not that different than the relationship between Invisibility, Images and Stealth.

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

This is just an example of HERO giving multiple game mechanic options for simulating a singe effect (accurate shooting in this case). If the 'Deadly Shooter skill is being used then called shots should NOT be used. The same goes for Find Weakness for that matter. All 3 are just different mechanical ways of expressing the same effect. Not that different than the relationship between Invisibility' date=' Images and Stealth.[/quote']

 

Is that a quote or a opinion?

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

Is that a quote or a opinion?

 

An opinion.

 

The description of "Deadly Shooter" on page 109 of Dark Champions is pretty clear:

 

"The character is deadly accurate when firing any type of gun."

 

If a player wants to use this mechanic he should automatically be forgoing the ability to use Hit Locations.

 

The description of "Lethal Accuracy I" on page 116 is very similar:

 

"The character has an uncanny knack for finding the weakest or most vulnerable spot on his target when he shoots."

 

The special effect in all 3 cases is exactly the same. Players should not be allowed to mix any of the 3 for a single attack.

 

Heck, it could also be argued that the randomness of the damage dice themselves is also a reflection of where a particular bullet hits a target.

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

Yeah, but in that case, there's the difference between "random hit location" and "less random hit location."

 

I do agree, Ranged Martial Arts, skill based Find Weakness, Hit Location, and/or accuracy-based Deadly Blow should not be stacked. If I were using the HoJ ( and wasn't simply building an update of the 4e version, who I actually like better mechanically ), I'd ditch the Deadly Blow talent, and probably not allow the PSLs to be used to boost damage, just perform trick shots.

 

Of course, my *real* objection to the HoJ writeup is the !@$#ing Mark I Handcannon. The damn thing is 110 active points worth of raw offensive power alone, and its got plenty of ammo too.

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

An opinion.

 

The description of "Deadly Shooter" on page 109 of Dark Champions is pretty clear:

 

"The character is deadly accurate when firing any type of gun."

 

If a player wants to use this mechanic he should automatically be forgoing the ability to use Hit Locations.

 

I disagree. The deadly accuracy from Deadly Shooter doesn't necessarily mean you always hit in the head or vitals. It can also mean that you are adept at hitting the most damaging area of wherever you target your foe. Why should you give up the ability to shoot someone in the leg or hand or head just because you are also able to get extra damage out of any firearm?

 

You can also buy a Naked Autofire advantage to allow you to use autofire any non-autofire firearm to show how fast you can shoot. This doesn't prevent you from doing a Rapid Fire maneuver as well, even though both are an example of your ability to shoot quickly.

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Re: THE HARBINGER OF JUSTICE Writeup..

 

An opinion.

 

The description of "Deadly Shooter" on page 109 of Dark Champions is pretty clear:

 

"The character is deadly accurate when firing any type of gun."

 

If a player wants to use this mechanic he should automatically be forgoing the ability to use Hit Locations.

 

The description of "Lethal Accuracy I" on page 116 is very similar:

 

"The character has an uncanny knack for finding the weakest or most vulnerable spot on his target when he shoots."

 

The special effect in all 3 cases is exactly the same. Players should not be allowed to mix any of the 3 for a single attack.

 

Heck, it could also be argued that the randomness of the damage dice themselves is also a reflection of where a particular bullet hits a target.

 

I can see your point, and while I agree with you to a certain degree, I think the final conclusion is overly restrictive. I thing that the player and/or GM should realise how good of a shot you are saying you are if you combine these, with an eye towards game balance. It should also be noted that style of campeign may have a lot to do with it, in a Dark Champions/Low Champions type game (think Spider-man or Daredevil) it may be more appropriate than in a cops type game..

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