Acroyear II Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 I am trying to build an Absorption power that also provides Defense to the character. As per the rules (page 132 of the Revised 5th Edition) I would Link the Defense power to the Absorption power. However, when using my Hero Designer program (Hero Designer 2) I find a Cost Multiplier option under the Absorption power for Absorption As A Defense that is x2 the normal cost of regular Absorption. I cannot find anything in the rule book or in the FAQ guide on this site that gives me any information on this Cost Multiplier option. Is it now mandatory that this Cost Multiplier must be added when building an Absorption power that has a Defense power linked to it? Or is there some other meaning to this Cost Multiplier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense The Ultimate Brick p35 It allows the dice rolled to act as PD/ED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acroyear II Posted February 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense The Ultimate Brick p35 It allows the dice rolled to act as PD/ED. Thank you, Ghost-Angel. I pulled out my copy of Ultimate Brick and looked it up. This will work much better than what I was originally planning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Heh, I never noticed that. It's good they finally (finally as in awhile back when TUB was released) rolled that option into Absorption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Heh' date=' I never noticed that. It's good they finally (finally as in awhile back when TUB was released) rolled that option into Absorption. [/quote'] It would have taken me a bit of time, but I'd just read the thing cover to cover for a book review. (alright, I knew about it a long time ago, I just had an excuse to plug...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense That option must make it difficult to operate under strict AP limits, or restrict you to a pretty weak Absorption. I've always just Linked Damage Reduction to the Absorption, or you can do the FF or raw PD/ED up to amount rolled on dice. The TUB option sounds wonky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense That option must make it difficult to operate under strict AP limits' date=' or restrict you to a pretty weak Absorption. I've always just Linked Damage Reduction to the Absorption, or you can do the FF or raw PD/ED up to amount rolled on dice. The TUB option sounds wonky.[/quote'] TUB's option is simply an alternate method. Yep, it can cause Active Point cap issues, on the other hand it is called "Simplified" for a reason, it's there to make some ofthe math part a bit easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Just thinking aloud... 6d6 Absorbtion averages 21 points, and ranges from 6 to 36 points. (I know that absorbtion technically only works with Body, but play along and see where we get to) You could buy 36 points of armour for 54 points, to go along with the cost of the absorbtion. You'd need a limtiation: you'll only average 21/36 of your maximum armour, which is 7/12ths or about 58%. 58% is between 10- and 11- (50% and 62%) on 3d6, which, if bought as an activation roll would be around -1, bringing the cost of the armour down to 27 points. Things are a bit more complex though, as absorbtion only works for so many points PER PHASE not per attack, so, realistically, it is not going to help at all for the second and subsequent decent hits in a phase. Given that any given character can probably normally expect to be attacked once a phase, I'd peg that at an additional -1/2, so total cost would be 22 points. You may think I lack generosity, but -1 would ASSUME that you are hit twice per phase on average, which I think is too much. Now if you bought it as an advantage for absorbtion (I don't have TUB) the cost would go from 30 to 52 points, or about a +3/4 advantage. That sounds about right to me. You can use the defences to stop Body OR stun, or both. If you JUST wanted absorbtion to work against Body damage, the max roll on Body is 12, so you only need 12 points or armour and you can limit that with 'only against Body' -1, as well as the -1 1/2 mentioned above, which would be a nice cheap extra 5 points, or we could call it +1/4 advantage on absorbtion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Things are a bit more complex though' date=' as absorbtion only works for so many points PER PHASE not per attack, ...[/quote'] Absorption works per instance you are exposed to what the Absorption works against. Or, Absorption work per Attack; up to your maximum effect. If you get attacked once, and roll a number that's the maximum you can Absorb for that attack. Everything else - ignored. You get attacked again, you roll again. Only the total Absorbed & Maximum you can absorb have any effect. You can get hit 15 times in one phase, if all 15 attacks would trip your Absorption you roll for each attack, until your Maximum Effect is reached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Absorption works per instance you are exposed to what the Absorption works against. Or, Absorption work per Attack; up to your maximum effect. If you get attacked once, and roll a number that's the maximum you can Absorb for that attack. Everything else - ignored. You get attacked again, you roll again. Only the total Absorbed & Maximum you can absorb have any effect. You can get hit 15 times in one phase, if all 15 attacks would trip your Absorption you roll for each attack, until your Maximum Effect is reached. I was expressing myself poorly: although it does work as you describe, after the second attack it almost certainly won't be doing any more absorbing, and so presumably not providing any more defence: a 10d6 absorbtion COULD absorb up to 20 points, which is likely to come from 2 normal attacks: anything else and it is not providing any more help, so against 15 attacks, it will absorb (assuming attacks of 10d6+) (probably) 10 points from the first attack then 10 from the second, then nothing more until next phase, so (if acting as a defence) it will provide 10 points of defence from the first and second attacks (on average) and nothing from any subsequent ones. In fact, thinking about it, once that maximum is reached, even going to the next phase is not going to help it it - you are full, and not absorbing anything until the points fade. That would throw my ballpark off a bit, and probably make the 'advantage' level quite a bit cheaper, and quite a bit more complex to administer. It is still an advantage, but only a little one: +1/4 probably. Also a nightmare to administer if it protects against stun as well as body. Actually, it is so messy I'd probably just up my defences a little and link them to the absorbtion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silbeg Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Absorption works per instance you are exposed to what the Absorption works against. Or, Absorption work per Attack; up to your maximum effect. If you get attacked once, and roll a number that's the maximum you can Absorb for that attack. Everything else - ignored. You get attacked again, you roll again. Only the total Absorbed & Maximum you can absorb have any effect. You can get hit 15 times in one phase, if all 15 attacks would trip your Absorption you roll for each attack, until your Maximum Effect is reached. Wow, when did that change? As I recall, it used to be that Absorption absorbed a max per PHASE, not per attack. This certainly makes it easier to run... the character will tend to absorb up to max much quicker this way, too. Makes smaller Absorbs more feasable, especially for things like vs. Physical Attacks, etc... On the other hand, the point of the Absorption as Defense is so that you don't have to have an additional power, such as: +15 PF, Linked to Absorption (-1/2), Only Up To Amount Rolled By Absorption (-1/2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense I was expressing myself poorly: although it does work as you describe, after the second attack it almost certainly won't be doing any more absorbing, and so presumably not providing any more defence: a 10d6 absorbtion COULD absorb up to 20 points, which is likely to come from 2 normal attacks: anything else and it is not providing any more help, so against 15 attacks, it will absorb (assuming attacks of 10d6+) (probably) 10 points from the first attack then 10 from the second, then nothing more until next phase, so (if acting as a defence) it will provide 10 points of defence from the first and second attacks (on average) and nothing from any subsequent ones. In fact, thinking about it, once that maximum is reached, even going to the next phase is not going to help it it - you are full, and not absorbing anything until the points fade. That would throw my ballpark off a bit, and probably make the 'advantage' level quite a bit cheaper, and quite a bit more complex to administer. It is still an advantage, but only a little one: +1/4 probably. Also a nightmare to administer if it protects against stun as well as body. Actually, it is so messy I'd probably just up my defences a little and link them to the absorbtion. er... 10D6 Asborption can absorb 60 Body worth of attack maximum. Given 12DC attacks, that's five average attacks before it's maxed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Wow, when did that change? As I recall, it used to be that Absorption absorbed a max per PHASE, not per attack. This certainly makes it easier to run... the character will tend to absorb up to max much quicker this way, too. Makes smaller Absorbs more feasable, especially for things like vs. Physical Attacks, etc... On the other hand, the point of the Absorption as Defense is so that you don't have to have an additional power, such as: +15 PF, Linked to Absorption (-1/2), Only Up To Amount Rolled By Absorption (-1/2) It changed with 5th Edition (FRED, the original). A change that makes sense IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense er... 10D6 Asborption can absorb 60 Body worth of attack maximum. Given 12DC attacks' date=' that's five average attacks before it's maxed out.[/quote'] Can you tell that this is not a power I use much? Does it show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silbeg Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense It changed with 5th Edition (FRED' date=' the original). A change that makes sense IMO.[/quote'] Thanks. One of the many changes between editions that got missed, and taken for granted. Like the -1 penalty to OCV when moving, that was dropped in 4E. I believe we finally realized it was gone after about 10 years of playing with yon BBB. And then we finally dropped the rule after another couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Thanks. One of the many changes between editions that got missed, and taken for granted. Like the -1 penalty to OCV when moving, that was dropped in 4E. I believe we finally realized it was gone after about 10 years of playing with yon BBB. And then we finally dropped the rule after another couple of years. Yes, it was definitely one of those smaller, under the radar, changes. I only caught it because I hadn't really thought about using Absorb under 4th and never read it. And when I used it under 5th the GM hadn't realized the change was made until I pulled ou the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Actually to clarify the rule... when you get attacked you roll abs. total on the dice is BODy you can absorb **THAT SEGMENT** Each attack provides so much body etc. So a 6d6 abs rolling 21 on the dice can absorb 10 body from the 10d6 Eb, but when the 4d6 RKA hits on the SAME SEGMENT for 14 body he only absorbs 11 not 14. the max total gain at any one time would be 36, the max on the dice. So the big change was from PHASE in 4e to SEGMENT in 5. HERO 5er page 131 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense huh. I missed the "segement" part. Good catch and thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperGuy Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense My only question is, after you absorb your max for the segement, does the defense still apply to additional attacks. My first thought is, Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense It changed with 5th Edition (FRED' date=' the original). A change that makes sense IMO.[/quote'] When a character encounters or is affected by the phenomenon he can Absorb' date=' he rolls his Absorption dice (this takes no time) and counts the total. The total rolled on the Absorption dice indicated the amount of BODY he can Absorb from incoming attacks that Phase.[/quote'] Note: not "from that incoming attack" but "from incoming attackS". To me, it's in the plural for a reason; it's one roll (at most) per Phase. I thus take it that "When a character encounters..." refers to the first time in a Phase than an applicable phenomenon occurs (if it does occur that Phase). I suppose you could read it as "Every time the character encounters...from incoming attacks by the same attacker that Phase," but that seems a stretch to me. Further, I can't see stretching it to "Every time the character enounters...from that one particular encounter." Note well; 4th edition says: The total rolled on the Absorption dice is the amount of BODY that the character can absorb from incoming attack in a single Phase. Note that the only real difference between 4th and FRED is that FRED details when the roll occurs (i.e., there must be an appropriate phenomenon). One could interpret 4th edition as expecting the player of the Absorbing character to roll at the beginning of each and every Phase, just to get it over and done with. So, if 4th Edition is per Phase, I'm afraid FRED must be, too. I don't see the write-ups as different enough to support the interpretation you've made, ghost-angel. EDIT: tesuji, would you mind posting the actually wording from re-FRED? I'd like to see if there are any other, minor changes. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense When a character encounters or is affected by the phenomenon he can Absorb' date=' he rolls his Absrorption dice (this is an Action that takes no time) and counts the total. The total rolled on the Absorption dice indicates the amount of BODY he can Absorb from incoming asttacks that Segment.[/quote'] Does anyone else remember when 5er was initially discussed? It seems there were repeated reassurances that none of the rules would be chnaged in the revision. That was, in particular, the justification for not considering a modification of the Damage Shied or Regeneration rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silbeg Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense So, the real difference is that you can re-roll each segment. So Ph12, Absorbing Man gets hit, rolls his absorption, and goes on. On Ph2, he gets hit again, but, because this is a different segment he rolls (and absorbs) again. That is pretty in line with some of the other 5E changes (like Flash). Good, so I am not completely insane. Just mostly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Well, it still remains to me much ado about nothing... Absorption is one of those hero powers which seems to have a hard time finding a good place between "not worth it" and "too powerful" and where it requires a degree of milking to get right. I mean, if someone wanted to say "i am fairly good but when evergy blasts are flying around me i suck up more energy and gain endurance" thats cool... but if he wanted to build this, like say 2d6 absorption 2d6 ENERGY to END +1 1/2 AOE 4" radius he winds up paying 25 ap for up to 24 end, which if bought straight up only oosts 12 cp. or "i grow stronger after being hit" written up as simple 2d6 abs to strength for PD pays 10 cp for up to 12 strength, which is odd compared to oh say 12 strength -1/2 no figures characteristics for 8 cp that works all the time. On the other hand, if you work the absorption so that it affects multiple traits at once using the underpriced +1/2 and then +1/4 for each extra... and if you add in some slower fade, you can rapidly get to too good for the price" especially if it boils down to "these are up most of the time". So a simple direct build is "not worth it" and improperly costed against the players and a tricked out system-fu build of the power can easily quickly skyrocket into "way too good for its cost" and somewhere in the middle is a "well built system fu required" build that might seem balanced now and again. conclusion... To my sometimes dim way of thinking, SCRAP all self-only adjustment powers and replace them with a consistent set of lims with fairly detailed examples given for "only works right after X event occurs" and thus open up the scope of these effects while at the same time bringing their cost and mechanics into sync with the rest of the rules. (Self-only aid, I am talking to you!!!) leave "adjustment powers" for powers that affect others. let "transferred only" be a limitation you place on traits you only ga8n use of after your "drain" works. paying more for the official "fighting array" (Self-only AID based) which raises your CV by 3 when fighting beside an ally than it costs to buy +9 dexterity is one of the more egregious examples, but there are plenty. ok steam released, pressure returing to normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense When a character encounters or is affected by the phenomenon he can Absorb, he rolls his Absrorption dice (this is an Action that takes no time) and counts the total. The total rolled on the Absorption dice indicates the amount of BODY he can Absorb from incoming asttacks that Segment. Thanks for posting that. Does anyone else remember when 5er was initially discussed? It seems there were repeated reassurances that none of the rules would be chnaged in the revision. That was' date=' in particular, the justification for not considering a modification of the Damage Shied or Regeneration rules.[/quote'] Heh. Yeah, I remember them saying "no rules will be changed Well, if there's a misprint, or something..." I guess someone decided Phase=>Segment was "correcting a misprint or something" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Re: Absorption As A Defense Okay, so it's per Segment instead of per Phase in 5th? So if I have xd6 Absorption and roll 10, get punched on Segment 3 with an attack that does 10 BODY, I'm full up on Absorption, but on Segment 4, I can Absorp some more, and then again on Segment 5, 6, etc. And I can do this regardless of what my SPD is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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