Leaping overpowered? (part 2)

[Brutal]

Isnt leaping a bit overpowered? Or at least the length of the leaps. Say a character is jumping across a ravine or maybe at some sportinging event. A reasonbly fit npc for example can jump 2" in combat, horizontally. This means he can do it 4" non combat. So, most npc's or characters arent that far off from breaking the world record (which is 8.95 meters or so afaik?). My fantasy hero PC with 100 total pts + a bunch of experience with strength 18 can jump somewhere along the lines of 7" non combat? Which is just MONSTROUS.

 

Is my math correct here, or did I miss something?

[Steve Long]

This is not a rules question, it's a game design/philosophy question. Accordingly, I've transferred it to "HERO System Discussion" so folx can talk about it if they wish.

[Talon]

You didn't miss anything, it's unrealistic. If I was running an Olympics campaign or something, I would definitely house-rule it. For cinematic games (where people seem to defy gravity, physics, etc. on a regular basis), it's not terrible so long as everyone understands that it's part of the game.

 

Similarly, note that people can Swim all day with no problem, since Swimming will rarely cost more than 1 END. A more realistic rule would be to have normal human Swimming cost 2-4x END, so that people would actually get tired being in the water.

[misterdeath]

On a soapbox

 

Are we talking over powered? Perhaps.

 

Unrealistic? Definately.

 

Most game systems, and Hero in particular are designed around the concept that the characters are special in some way. Even in low powered games, the characters start with 10s as base stats. Checking Fred shows that the Average Person has all 8s. Not much of a jump, but still the Average Character is better than the Average Person.

 

A normal person can't push. That's reserved for heroes.

 

So, I submit to you that we're not creating olympic athletes, we're creating Heroes.

 

We create John Matrix, and Rambo, and Conan, and Superman.

 

A strong Fantasy Warrior has a leaping of 7". That's 14 meters, or 42 feet (about). That's huge. That's unrealistic.

 

So what. Gaming isn't reality, it shouldn't be. Hero System isn't about reality. Reality is boring. It's about playing Heroes. Heroes are fun.

 

Gaming is about fun.

 

D

[Talon]

I agree with everything you said...but it's still unrealistic. Someone with 20 STR shouldn't automatically be able to break world leaping records. It doesn't make real-world sense.

 

Of course, most of the time it doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense. But it's good to acknowledge the fact.

[misterdeath]

Oh, sure. It's unrealistic. But, statting something out in general is unrealistic.

 

Lifting Strength =! Jumping Ability =! resistance to damage. But we call that Strength.

 

IQ =! Memory =! speed of thought =! perception. But, we call that Intelligence.

 

By putting numbers to paper, you're making assumptions about underlying reality.

 

You're creating a model of how the world works. And, even very complex models make assumptions about things. And, as my old prof used to say, "All models are wrong, some are occasionally useful."

 

So, Hero makes its fundamental assumptions at a much higher level than typical reality. Which is to say a 20 Str guy can break world weightlifting and world jumping records.

 

Sure, it's unrealistic. It's also pretty fundamental to the System.

 

So, I acknowledge it.

 

I also don't think it's much of an issue. I could go play a different System, with different underlying assumptions if I did.

 

D

[Old Man]

Like most movement powers Leaping is okay in Champions but overpowered in heroic level games. For thirty active points you can leap 25" (50" noncombat) with pinpoint accuracy. In a milieu where 8" of running is damn fast, that's pretty sick.

[Yamo]

Considered just disallowing noncombat Leaping?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Yamo

Considered just disallowing noncombat Leaping?

In heroic games, yes. I think NC leaping is a bit strange anyway (but definitely in-genre for superheros). Its definitely a good target for nerfing in a heroic level campaign.

[JMHammer]

Disallowing Non-Combat Leaps

 

Considered just disallowing noncombat Leaping?

 

In all my games, characters can't use non-combat leaps (i.e. 2x normal leap distance) unless they buy one or more inches of extra leaping. If they do that, then they get the base level of non-combat leaping free. And there has to be some kind of reason for the character to have a super-leap.

 

John H

[Legendsmiths]

I simply halve the distance. I only allow NC leap if they have a half move running start.

 

So, average man can stand and leap 2m, running leap 4m.

 

Strong man can stand and leap 4m and running leap 8m.

 

I also require an attack roll to hit the hex/land safely plus a Leap dice roll to see how far they made it.

 

Leap dice are # of inches as normal dice, count BODY as .5 m. Add that to .5m * #".

 

So, a character with a 4" leap rolls 4d6, counts the BODY. That's how many half-meters he leaps + 2m when running. If standing, he leaps half that. This gives a nice average, allows people to buy extra inches of leap, and keeps it realistic. Great for trying to make it over a chasm or pit.

 

I also allow skill levels with leap to either add to the attack roll, making tight landings easier, or to add extra dice to the leap without changing the max. So, if the leaper above put 2 levels on the leap, he would roll 6d6 but pick the best 4. Pushing is also allowed at +1" w/ Ego roll, +1" per 5 success thereafter.

 

This is only appropriate for heroic games, and is a total house rule, but it makes action scenes involving leaping quite fun.

 

I do the same with damage increases. If the damage is increased beyond the max of the weapon, roll it anyway and just pick the highest. If the damage is killing, roll the increased damage but only allow the max (e.g. a 1d6K is increased to 3d6, but since 2d6 is the max, 3d6 are rolled but no more than 12 damage can be done). This rewards a haymaker or maneuver without unbalancing the game.

[Underling]

Re: On a soapbox

 

Originally posted by misterdeath

Are we talking over powered? Perhaps.

 

Unrealistic? Definately.

 

Most game systems, and Hero in particular are designed around the concept that the characters are special in some way. Even in low powered games, the characters start with 10s as base stats. Checking Fred shows that the Average Person has all 8s. Not much of a jump, but still the Average Character is better than the Average Person.

 

A normal person can't push. That's reserved for heroes.

 

So, I submit to you that we're not creating olympic athletes, we're creating Heroes.

 

We create John Matrix, and Rambo, and Conan, and Superman.

 

A strong Fantasy Warrior has a leaping of 7". That's 14 meters, or 42 feet (about). That's huge. That's unrealistic.

 

So what. Gaming isn't reality, it shouldn't be. Hero System isn't about reality. Reality is boring. It's about playing Heroes. Heroes are fun.

 

Gaming is about fun.

 

D

 

I disagree with the idea that the rules shouldn't be realistic because it wouldn't be fun. The basic rules SHOULD be based on realism. It gives us real-world baseline capabilities with which to compare heroic abilities. If I have a normal strength character who plans to whack another normal character in the head with the butt of my pistol, I want to know that I have a good chance of knocking the other character out, with a chance of merely giving him a sore head or seriously injuring the guy. If the rules don't have realism at their fundamental level, you can't rely on such intuitive understanding. And without that core realism, the most likely results from that whack to the head could be basically no effect or rip the guy's head off. Additionally, it's hard to suspend disbelief when something defies your sense of fundamental reality.

 

Derek

[Legendsmiths]

Exactly. A leap of 14m by a strong character is just rediculous. BUT, that doesn't make the game unplayable. The beauty of Hero is that a simple change, like halving leaping distance, solves that problem. My house rules for "dicing" a leap are just to make that an exciting game mechanic-al situation.

[misterdeath]

Re: Re: On a soapbox

 

Originally posted by Underling

I disagree with the idea that the rules shouldn't be realistic because it wouldn't be fun. The basic rules SHOULD be based on realism. It gives us real-world baseline capabilities with which to compare heroic abilities. If I have a normal strength character who plans to whack another normal character in the head with the butt of my pistol, I want to know that I have a good chance of knocking the other character out, with a chance of merely giving him a sore head or seriously injuring the guy. If the rules don't have realism at their fundamental level, you can't rely on such intuitive understanding. And without that core realism, the most likely results from that whack to the head could be basically no effect or rip the guy's head off. Additionally, it's hard to suspend disbelief when something defies your sense of fundamental reality.

 

Derek

 

They should have a basis in reality, sure. But, anything that exactly models reality will have a basis set so complicated that it'd take multiple supercomputers to deal with it. And people complain about the type and volume of Hero Math And it would still be wrong. Because you'd miss an equation somewhere, and that would throw something off.

 

So, in all models, game systems in particular, trade offs are made on how close to reality the system comes. Assumptions are made, and formulas are created. There has to be a trade off in "reality modeling" and "Playability." The amount of each you accept in your final product says quite a bit about your style.

 

Hero is an outgrowth of Champions. Which was designed around a reality where people can pick up Tanks, fire force beams from their eyes, and use their Kung Fu to break down bank doors. The baseline for Hero isn't reality, it's Action Adventure Fiction. Movies, TV, Comics. Close to Reality, but not necessarily Reality. That's the baseline.

 

It has some fundamental assumptions and simplifications, because of that baseline. Jumping is a direct function (and a simple one) of Strength, which leads to situations where the weightlifter can outjump the sprinter. Simple, easy, direct, and wrong.

 

That's fundamental to the system. You can change it, and the no NCM variant sounds pretty good.

 

Or, you can move to a more realistic system, one which has a different set of trade offs.

 

That's why GURPS is so popular. Because it's fundamental set seems to be closer to reality than Hero, which fundamentally is about Adventure Fiction.

 

Because we all study Adventure Fiction (movies, games, TV, comics, books) we all have suspension of disbelief from that.

 

So, yeah, you're right. We need to have a Reality to work from. It just might not be Reality.

 

D

[Farkling]

To further comment upon this subjecy...

 

Most of us ahree that Hero does a fair job of modelling the comic book heroes...MOST of the time.

 

The system feels pretty stable from James Bond up to Galactic Guardians, and we use the arbitrary comparisons built into the desingn, because we have no REAL examples to compare to...to paraphrase the pioneers of comic book metahuman research, "I have no idea where the energy comes from, but the evidence is that MegaGuy can freely use it as he wishes."

 

After playing too many systems to count, I settled on Hero because it can be rewritten or adjusted to suit my taste. At the convention, we are trying to ge tnewbies into it, so we will dump the speed chart, and the endurance rules for the combat, and likely use a bloody tape measure for speed. I'd hate to run new players off using Hero's versatile and in depth combat system right at the start.

 

And my only real comment on GURPS is this:

Champions reality model breaks down right below the James Bond level, depending on the style of your game. GURPS starts to break down around Indiana Jones or the early James Bond level. So use the system you are most comfortable with for the game you are running.

 

Me? I have a few house rules to implement at LOW power levels, but other than that, well, I find Hero to be a bit more flexible and adaptable in my hands. I certainly find I can design most artifacts and spells and other various special effects more easily...especially when I don't need anything more than an ESTIMATE of Active Points for a paranormals game.

 

Thanks ever so much for letting me stand on my soapbox.

[Underling]

Originally posted by Farkling

To further comment upon this subjecy...

 

Most of us ahree that Hero does a fair job of modelling the comic book heroes...MOST of the time.

 

The system feels pretty stable from James Bond up to Galactic Guardians, and we use the arbitrary comparisons built into the desingn, because we have no REAL examples to compare to...to paraphrase the pioneers of comic book metahuman research, "I have no idea where the energy comes from, but the evidence is that MegaGuy can freely use it as he wishes."

 

After playing too many systems to count, I settled on Hero because it can be rewritten or adjusted to suit my taste. At the convention, we are trying to ge tnewbies into it, so we will dump the speed chart, and the endurance rules for the combat, and likely use a bloody tape measure for speed. I'd hate to run new players off using Hero's versatile and in depth combat system right at the start.

 

And my only real comment on GURPS is this:

Champions reality model breaks down right below the James Bond level, depending on the style of your game. GURPS starts to break down around Indiana Jones or the early James Bond level. So use the system you are most comfortable with for the game you are running.

 

Me? I have a few house rules to implement at LOW power levels, but other than that, well, I find Hero to be a bit more flexible and adaptable in my hands. I certainly find I can design most artifacts and spells and other various special effects more easily...especially when I don't need anything more than an ESTIMATE of Active Points for a paranormals game.

 

Thanks ever so much for letting me stand on my soapbox.

 

I think your comparison about the "break down" between H.S. and GURPS is about right. I prefer the elegance of H.S., I like the breadth of characteristics (particularly the SPD concept), and I appreciate the whole concept of building abilities based on the desired special effects.

 

However, the games I run are never as powerful as a typical H.S. superhero adventure. Everything I run is below the level of James Bond, often down to little more than normal humans. If the players have super abilities, they're normal humans who usually have only a single super ability, and they're not all that powerful. An armed special ops soldier can still take them down. I often find that players enjoy this style of play because they can relate to their characters better while still having the sensation of being more capable than others. Occasionally, the games will even star themselves as characters.

 

For these reasons, it's critical that the physics of the game world works right, all the way down to a doddering old lady whacking someone with her cane. If the players discover that the game mechanics allow them to jump significantly greater (or lesser) distances than they know they themselves can do, or take more (or less) damage than they know they can, they lose their trust in the game system and they lose their ability to suspend disbelief.

 

For this reason, for the past decade I've been playing GURPS. I think GURPS does a great job with skill costs, skill defaults, damage types and injuries, but the characters often have almost the same characteristics, and there are too few characteristics. Also, strength increases are linear, not exponential, making it virtually impossible to create a character who is twice as strong as an average person (easy enough to find in the real world, and easy enough to create in H.S.). GURPS also lacks a certain elegance. For instance, damage for ranged weapons drops by half at a precise distance, rather than some less abrupt (and realistic) scale. Yet the overall "feel" for a GURPS campaign is one of high realism. The results of a sword strike are viscerally "real." This "realism" comes at a cost in determining battle results, though I'm convinced the rules could be made more streamlined without sacrificing reality.

 

It seems to me that H.S. could have the best of both worlds by simply revisiting the basic rules and making them apply to normal humans first, then doing what's necessary to make them work for superheroes. Would it be all that difficult to do? I don't think so. Set basic jumping distances and then scale up as needed for super jumping. Cut the length of a turn to maybe half of its current length (does it really make sense that your average joe can only attack once per six seconds, even factoring in half a move?).

 

Hmm, I wonder if that would be a simple fix? Cut the 1" = 2 yards to 1" = 1 yard. Cut the length of a turn to 6 seconds. Perhaps add some variation to unconsciousness times. Naturally, ranges calculated for real-world weapons would have to use the old scale...but I wonder if overall it would work? Would superpowers be messed up? Just musing here....

 

Derek

[Legendsmiths]

I'm a big fan of GURPS and have been playing it for a long time. When FRED came out we wanted to give normal level Hero another try.

 

Fundamentally, Hero will always have that cinematic feel. But I have been very satisfied with the "realism" the game does offer. My only beef has been leaping, which I came up with a simple fix.

 

I think you could easily change the scale for combat to 1m per hex without changing the powers. Keep 1" equal to 2m. This means that your running inches actually indicate your half move in 1m hexes. It's a simple conversion, and ensures that powers are still on the same Hero scale.

 

The problem we ran into with GURPS is that fantasy/sci-fi races are fundamentally unbalanced relative to humans, and that we could never get action movie cinematic reality to work quite right.

 

Sure Hero damage isn't entirely realistic, but it's not entirely unrealistic either. It's nice that when 3 normal guys gang up on another normal guy and beat him with their fists, the victim will end up in a coma but not dead, unlike GURPS where after a 10 second beating the victim is pulp. In Hero you can still suffer a nice head shot and get taken out, but its much more difficult. The mods are a little less detailed, but they capture all of the detail that's necessary.

 

I've always enjoyed GURPS gunplay, and always will. However, a recent gun battle in Hero was a lot closer to something out of Bad Boyz II or The Big Hit than GURPS ever was. When the dust settled, we had just as much fun, the players weren't mortally wounded or maimed, and it moved very quickly.

 

As for speed differences, I don't mind that either. In fact, I prefer it. I like to think of the 6 second action cycle for a normal guy as hesitation, lack of cool, and being unskilled when it comes to survival. Compared to GURPS, he is actually getting a full GURPS move (6m) plus a full attack. So, his lack of skill really results in him getting an equivalent GURPS action every 3 seconds, which seems very appropriate for someone unsure about combat.

 

I like them both, but am definitely more in a Hero mood right now. I do miss defaults, and 1/2 point skills, but overall its okay. For heroic fantasy I think I really prefer Hero as long as a good magic system is used and mages are more than dark-age superheroes.

[AnotherSkip]

Actually I think Defaults and the whole defaulting tree is kinda silly. IMNSHO if ya really need defaults just "default "to either a similar skill at a penalty or go with a Char based roll at a bigger penalty, theres only about 10 of those to choose from.

 

if ya need a chart swipe it from GURPS

 

otherwise BYO or handle it off the cuff.

 

not allways the best but pretty good.