Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

[Vondy]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

 

Honestly, how healthy is it for a corpse to farm for you? Just say that the magic doesn't stop the spread of disease, so food needs to be imported, or living humans need to handle it themselves.

 

Farming: skeletons only.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Farming: skeletons only.

 

Yep. For durability and sanitation reasons I figured the lesser undead would be predominantly skeletons. Zombies only really raised on the battlefield from the fallen to bolster forces.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

I know we are talking magic here, but if I were a GM and was trying to find reasonable ways of limiting this nation, and the player suggested the idea of skeletons farming, I would explain to them how much bacteria are STILL on skeletons. Sure, it's better. No, it's not healthy.

 

But, if that wasn't a concern, I wouldn't sweat it. It's magic, after all.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

A lot of farming activities they wouldn't be good for anyways IMO. Hook a bunch up to a plow and have them walk forward, fine. Weeding, picking fruit, milking cows and the like...nah.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

A lot of farming activities they wouldn't be good for anyways IMO. Hook a bunch up to a plow and have them walk forward' date=' fine. Weeding, picking fruit, milking cows and the like...nah.[/quote']

 

I expect most livestock would react poorly to a shambling corpse trying to care for them. Most types of livestock are pretty skittish, especially if they smell death in the air. Skeletons might have less problems, but still...

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

I ask myself "Do i want to know what it would be like to milk a zombie cow?"

 

I answer myself "No!"

[Cancer]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Limits to this system lie in the maintenance and creation costs of the skeletons and how durable they are. It's worth noting that the overall skeleton power of the society is larger than its manpower, but only by about a factor of 2. I assume here women's skeletons are just as effective as men's (that's where the factor of 2 arises, since for a good portion of their lives women are needed to raise living children, something the undead cannot do). It is not tens or hundreds of times the population. There will be some losses from the system because some deaths result in an unusable or lost corpse ... lost at sea, burned in a house fire, devoured by wild beasts, etc.

 

If skeletons have literally zero maintenance cost, then the economic pressure to apply undead labor to all possible sites (and squeeze the living out of every possible niche that undead can fill) will be overwhelming.

 

If converting a corpse to a skeleton is cheap and easy and the demand for skeleton labor is high, then literally no one will be safe from abduction/murder/skeletonization, and the cost of human life will sink rapidly to the cost of the skeletonization process. (This is especially true of there's little or no way to identify who a skeleton was before death, since that removes nearly all the risk for the "labor enterpreneur".) I can't see that as being conducive for any sort of ongoing society, so you may end up having to say that skeletonization requires some fixed major facility which is monopolized by the state.

 

How long does a skeleton last? That's likely to be a function of the work they do, of course. But with that answer you now have the beginnings of an answer for what death rate you need to maintain the undead labor pool.

 

Another issue: does a person have to be adult to make a useful skeleton? I can see really repulsive (from the point of view of our society) decisions being made that the very bottom class of people exist only to supply undead labor, and after their first 2 or 3 children, all others are "converted" at age 12 or so (if that's what it works out to being), that age being the best compromise between labor you can extract from a smaller skeleton and cost needed to grow the pre-skeleton to adult stature. If it's cheaper to keep skeletons than living slaves, then slaves will be just skeleton factories and will be used ruthlessly for that purpose.

 

The rich and powerful in the society will encourage and embrace any religion which tells them it is the will of the deities that the weak/poor/underclass/subhuman/liberal/whatever be turned into undead automatons, so as to uplift the virtuous/rich/worthy and further exalt their temples. This being true, there will be a very wealthy, very influential, and very corrupt temple that feeds them exactly what they want to hear in this regard. That same temple will feed the underclasses a steady diet of how virtuous it is to work for the greater glory etc. as an undead, and how death is better than idleness, and some pap about how the spirit will be free, and rested, and so on.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

I know we are talking magic here, but if I were a GM and was trying to find reasonable ways of limiting this nation, and the player suggested the idea of skeletons farming, I would explain to them how much bacteria are STILL on skeletons. Sure, it's better. No, it's not healthy.

 

But, if that wasn't a concern, I wouldn't sweat it. It's magic, after all.

 

I figure any society run by Liches that has reached the level of Empire based on exploiting the power of Undead would preserve their dead in such was as to prevent contagion. Steaming or boiling to prepare a new "fieldhand" for work is proabably likely, folowed by a nice laquer coat.

Maybe even a paint job.

More "corporeal" undead (not that Skeletons aren't corporeal, but they have gotten rid of most of the droppy off bits) would, if I were to guess, be treated and "dressed" as well. Embalmed and tightly wrapped, then probably dressed up similar to scarecrows...cast off clothes, old bags, ropes and gloves to cover the nasty bits.

 

Also would help prevent the "But that's GrandPapa" factor.

 

The society, even if chafing under the absolute ceiling of an Immortal Undead highest class, might assume a certain national pride concerning its undead... "Oppose our Empire and you shall face in battle every soul to have ever lived within her benevelolent embrace, living or dead!".

 

"Humph. We did away with such menial labours aeons ago. Once the spirits of our ancestors go to their divine reward, their now ageless husks relieve the living of the burden of toil and suffering, commonly borne upon the backs of the common man, freeing our people for the persuit of art, philosophy, and magic. Our Soliders never rape, never pillage, draw no pension, and guard our borders tirelessly. You call us mad? Ask any freeman if he would rather live under such "oppression", or if he would prefer to join your world. The answer may suprise you"

 

I expect most livestock would react poorly to a shambling corpse trying to care for them. Most types of livestock are pretty skittish' date=' especially if they smell death in the air. Skeletons might have less problems, but still...[/quote']

Unless there is something setting related preventing Raising animals (like the old Souls vs Spirits debate), I'd think Undead Draft Animals would serve that purpose better than undead people.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Unless there is something setting related preventing Raising animals (like the old Souls vs Spirits debate)' date=' I'd think Undead Draft Animals would serve that purpose better than undead people.[/quote']

 

Good point about the draft animals. I was thinking more about animals raised for their wool/meat/milk -- you need to keep them alive, healthy, and reasonably happy, for obvious reasons. I'm not sure undead animal tenders would be good for that job.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Good point about the draft animals. I was thinking more about animals raised for their wool/meat/milk -- you need to keep them alive' date=' healthy, and reasonably happy, for obvious reasons. I'm not sure undead animal tenders would be good for that job. [/quote']

 

yeah, good point.

We were looking at it from opposite sides.

Properly prepared, Skeletons could proabably do most of the work currently performed by automation, as long as the setting allows for animals raised around the undead to become "accustomed" to them. If they create the classic "supernatural dread" that spooks all animals simply because of the animaitng force, then you'd certainly need living caretakers.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Ya know.... a mummified Mammoth in full barding with a Liche as a mahout would be one hell of a war machine.

[naturaltwenty]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

It's a d20 product but for a great source of info on how a city run by Necromancers (that aren't evil) who use an undead labor force and army can be "realistcally" managed I can't recommend Hollowfaust highly enough.

 

 

A 10.00 PDF at http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3279

 

In the shadow of a dormant volcano crouched the dead city of Sumara. Wandering necromancers rediscovered it in the wake of the Divine War, and from the bones of that slain nation, the wizards fashioned a new realm: Hollowfaust, City of the Necromancers. Today, this city-state grows and prospers, defended by legions of undead warriors and ruled by a secret society of powerful spellcasters. On the surface, there exists a curious culture that embraces both the joy of life and the inevitability of death, but 'deep below, in tunnels beneath the city, the necromancers delve into the secrets of mortality and the undead. Welcome, then, to Hollowfaust - one of the strangest cities in all of Ghelspad. Enjoy your visit. And don't die!

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Ya know.... a mummified Mammoth in full barding with a Liche as a mahout would be one hell of a war machine.

 

 

Not mummified, but something like...

 

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tpope/sol/grenadier/images/5505.jpg

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Lots of good stuff and interesting discussion so far, thanks folks!

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Good point about the draft animals. I was thinking more about animals raised for their wool/meat/milk -- you need to keep them alive' date=' healthy, and reasonably happy, for obvious reasons. I'm not sure undead animal tenders would be good for that job. [/quote']

 

I'm sure hogs wouldn't mind zombie tenders (pun intended).

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

I'm sure hogs wouldn't mind zombie tenders (pun intended).

 

EEEEW! I'm going to have to wash my brain out with soap now, thanks ver much.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

EEEEW! I'm going to have to wash my brain out with soap now' date=' thanks ver much.[/quote']

 

Like you haven't seen Hannibal....

[teh bunneh]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Like you haven't seen Hannibal....

 

Or Snatch, or Deadwood...

[Steve]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

One thing to consider is if there are multiple "strains" of intelligent undead around.

 

Do vampires exist? Would they be some sort of second-class undead citizens or lower nobility, since they exist as parasites upon the living? Perhaps vampirism is the result of a lich creation gone wrong, but with certain benefits that liches don't have (since vampires can look like breathing folk). Vampire knights would make for a scary battle force.

 

What about ghouls? They could be warped zombies, preying on zombie flesh like vampires prey upon the living.

 

Would ghosts exist?

 

You could have an entire undead "necrology" going on, complete with a sort of pecking order among the intelligent breeds.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Oh, ghouls playing a menace to the nation because of their attacking zombies... fascinating.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

One thing to consider is if there are multiple "strains" of intelligent undead around.

 

Do vampires exist? Would they be some sort of second-class undead citizens or lower nobility, since they exist as parasites upon the living? Perhaps vampirism is the result of a lich creation gone wrong, but with certain benefits that liches don't have (since vampires can look like breathing folk). Vampire knights would make for a scary battle force.

 

What about ghouls? They could be warped zombies, preying on zombie flesh like vampires prey upon the living.

 

Would ghosts exist?

 

You could have an entire undead "necrology" going on, complete with a sort of pecking order among the intelligent breeds.

 

Right off the top of my head I'd kinda tie the origins of all undead back to the original study of necromancy done by those of the culture that produced the Liches and/or subsiquent research in the following eons. Working up from scratch as it were. I like the idea that Vampirisim is a failed attempt at Lichedom. I'd go with a single point of origin, one partcular liche-candidate who became the father of all vampires. Perhaps a candidate of semi-divine origin (lots nice half mortal heros in any decent origin mythos) whose basic spiritual nature as a Fertility avatar was perverted to vampirisim. I like the idea of Vampires forming the heart of the organized criminal element of society, allowed a small crack in society in which to dwell without too much interference in exchange for providing some neccesary evils. They certainly might have greater ambitions, however.

 

Other thoughts.

Ghouls?

Howabout as something like the Anita Blake books. They'd be the earlist form of Liche, basically. Try and raise a necromancer as a zombie and the magic interacts strangely and the newly arisen retains some of the hunger and intelligence of life. This discovery could have been the turning point that led to the creation of the entire culture, as necromancers delved into the strange interactions that made these "hungry dead" and began exploring how the magic might be used to extend part of the self after death. Combined with what would almost certainly be a boom in the study of the arts of preserving the dead.

 

Noncorporeal undead could be explained in a similar way. If necromantic magic acts kinda like the "glue" that sticks part of the animating force to remains, and it "rubs off" and leaves a "residue" on your spirit that sticks some of your life, then I could see how a spirit could get stuck even without a body to control.

[Steve]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Vampirism could be like it is shown in some source materials, as a form of supernatural disease. Since it is relatively easy to pass on undead immortality this way, I can see how the lich rulers could treat vampires as a form of outlaws. Useful sometimes, but generally a criminal underclass.

 

Imagine a version of Robin Hood as a vampire, tirelessly fighting against the tyrannical Lich Lords and aiding the common folk, a phantom in the night.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Vampirism could be like it is shown in some source materials, as a form of supernatural disease. Since it is relatively easy to pass on undead immortality this way, I can see how the lich rulers could treat vampires as a form of outlaws. Useful sometimes, but generally a criminal underclass.

 

Imagine a version of Robin Hood as a vampire, tirelessly fighting against the tyrannical Lich Lords and aiding the common folk, a phantom in the night.

 

We're on the same wavelength here...

[Steve]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Actually, another way to look at vampirism could be like how ninja were viewed by samurai in feudal Japan. They were weapons used by nobles against each other, useful but hidden until needed. If the Empire is ruled by undead lich lords, their society could have codes of honor and tradition that are just as binding as feudal Japan had.

 

Come to think of it, ninja vampires are just a cool idea in general. Can you imagine clans of assassins and spies spread around the countryside with vampiric abilities and ninja-like training? The various lich lords could employ them against their rivals and enemies.

[Damascan]

Re: Undead Slaves?

 

I have a question about the fuel of the undead, so to speak. What keeps them going? How is the liche-lord keeping this spell up all the time? Doesn't the spell ever weaken? Can the undead always be active, or do they need an inactive time to recuperate? How is the usual hunger for brains or the living sated?

 

 

What happens if the master of the undead is distracted by some means? Do the undead then rebel and attack the living, trying to eat that which they envy, the lifeforce that they no longer have?

 

Let's continue with the slavery parralel: are we treating them as robots and empty husks because it is convenient for this society to think that they are? Don't the undead, even skeletons, have some vestigal memory that could return with time? Why are so many assuming that the undead are the husks of the living --- maybe that what makes them undead is their souls being trapped or bound to their bodies. If undead soldiers are waiting to defend their kings or country, that would seem to imply that they remember who their king is and still feel bound to their country. I could see such undead serving as guards and feeling that there is honor in that, but that wouldn't necessarily apply to those forced to work in the mines perhaps. Yes, there could even be an Undead Rights Group (U.R.G!)

 

Returning to the memories of the undead: take the classic vampires. They may have lost their souls not because their souls have left their bodies, but because their souls have been bound or integrated into the flesh. Don't vampires remember who they were, whom they loved? Classicly, destroying a vampire frees the soul. Again, using them as slaves would be morally murky then. Can binding a soul for all eternity to servitude really be considered benevolent? Could you use zombie-gramps as a slave if he still remembered his life, even vaguely?

 

Regarding using the undead as servants -- what happened to the putrid smell, or the cold that emanates from so many of them? Would you really want such a servant in your house? Yes, I could see skeletons working in the mines, but not in a house. And zombies: are we saying that all zombies shall be embalmed, made up, and perfumed to the point that they will look and smell like cheap prostitutes?

 

This is all just food for thought. Most of the ideas of a benevolent liche-lord smack of the communist/dictatorial/colonialist propoganda of our past and present. So why not develop the rest of the picture? The dissidents? The exiles? The possibilities are mind-boggling. Very Twilight Zoneish in its potential to mirror the experiments of our own world...