Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

[Manic Typist]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Hm. Some sort of network of structures used to maintain the spell might be an interesting touch. Adds fluff, interesting locations, places to be guarded and attacked.

[Steve]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Hm. Some sort of network of structures used to maintain the spell might be an interesting touch. Adds fluff' date=' interesting locations, places to be guarded and attacked.[/quote']

 

This would also provide a limitation on the Empire's expansion. If the undead receive some sort of beamed power within the network that allows them to function, then expansion would be slow as new towers (or whatever they might be) are set up. The creation of such power sources could be a state secret entrusted to only a few.

 

And what about politics if other nations develop necromantic networks of their own? Imagine something like N.A.T.O. (Necromantic Alliance Treaty Organization).

 

Vampire agents and undead armies could be dispatched against non-aligned nations that are trying to develop counter-measures against necromancy. Perhaps another large empire went in a different direction, developing golems instead. Perhaps a group of vampires emigrated from the Empire and set themselves up in their own kingdom. Perhaps ghouls can be created from zombies that are fed upon by ghouls, in a sort of necromantic infection like vampirism on the living.

 

You could extrapolate all kinds of interesting things from the basic premise for this world.

[Damascan]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

What if the spell is maintained and supported by the lifeforce of the undead 'owners'? Maybe there is an undead slave trade, and the buyer must either pay for spell renewal on a regular basis (sort of an undead lease) and/or provide the undead with lifeforce ('Bobby, you've been very bad today. I'm going to have to let Mr. Goop suck some life out of you...")

 

Also, imagine the magical sabotage that other empires would attempt on such an empire --- spells that would corrupt the control mechanism of the undead, or spells that would act like diseases to the undead --- causing them to feel pain, remember and re-enact past lives, etc.

 

Then let's not forget demonic or spirit possession of the undead, not unlike Barbara Hambly's 'Knight of the Demon Queen,' where a plague swept the kingdom and 'healers' summoned demons into the corpses --- the demons then pretended that their hosts had recovered...

[Vestnik]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Vampirism could be like it is shown in some source materials, as a form of supernatural disease. Since it is relatively easy to pass on undead immortality this way, I can see how the lich rulers could treat vampires as a form of outlaws. Useful sometimes, but generally a criminal underclass.

 

cough cough * China Mieville's The Scar * cough cough

[Vestnik]

Re: Undead Slaves?

 

Let's continue with the slavery parralel: are we treating them as robots and empty husks because it is convenient for this society to think that they are? Don't the undead, even skeletons, have some vestigal memory that could return with time? Why are so many assuming that the undead are the husks of the living --- maybe that what makes them undead is their souls being trapped or bound to their bodies. If undead soldiers are waiting to defend their kings or country, that would seem to imply that they remember who their king is and still feel bound to their country. I could see such undead serving as guards and feeling that there is honor in that, but that wouldn't necessarily apply to those forced to work in the mines perhaps. Yes, there could even be an Undead Rights Group (U.R.G!)

 

If I were to work this out, I would probably postulate a religion in this society that stated that being made undead was actually a passage to a higher state, a reward for loyal earthly service. It does let you avoid true death after all. Thus, the plebians of the society would look forward to their postmortem zombification and not view it as something to be feared.

[Cancer]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Maximum number of undead laborers in existence at one time = {[(Death rate in the society)(fraction of deaths which yield bodies suitable for conversion to laborer)] + (import rate of external undead laborers) + (import rate of convertible bodies)} * (average "lifetime" of undead laborer)

 

Rates are in deaths or bodies per year; "lifetime" is in years. Note that in steady state, the death rate ~= birth rate.

 

If the availability of undead labor is a serious constraint on production, then there will be strong pressure from the rich necro-industrialists upon the political leadership to conduct things like the Aztecs' Flower Wars, whose real purpose was not war or conquest, but rather collection of prisoners suitable for sacrifice.

 

This pressure will so strong that an ongoing question for the empire is going to be one of resource management (husbandry): which non-necromantic neighbor(s) can we attack this year to fulfill our labor needs, and how long those neighbors can be "harvested" without destroying their ability to produce enough convertible bodies in the future.

 

Actually, I can see a necromantic empire putting a strong pressure on its neighbors to adopt polygamy. That's one of the few options to keep the birth rate up when you're losing lots of fighting men in their prime.

[The Weapon]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Maximum number of undead laborers in existence at one time = {[(Death rate in the society)(fraction of deaths which yield bodies suitable for conversion to laborer)] + (import rate of external undead laborers) + (import rate of convertible bodies)} * (average "lifetime" of undead laborer)

 

Rates are in deaths or bodies per year; "lifetime" is in years. Note that in steady state, the death rate ~= birth rate.

 

If the availability of undead labor is a serious constraint on production, then there will be strong pressure from the rich necro-industrialists upon the political leadership to conduct things like the Aztecs' Flower Wars, whose real purpose was not war or conquest, but rather collection of prisoners suitable for sacrifice.

 

This pressure will so strong that an ongoing question for the empire is going to be one of resource management (husbandry): which non-necromantic neighbor(s) can we attack this year to fulfill our labor needs, and how long those neighbors can be "harvested" without destroying their ability to produce enough convertible bodies in the future.

 

Actually, I can see a necromantic empire putting a strong pressure on its neighbors to adopt polygamy. That's one of the few options to keep the birth rate up when you're losing lots of fighting men in their prime.

 

Pround Warrior Patriarch making patriotic speech: "I am not afraid of their hellish forces. My sons have destroyed a thousand of their 'warriors'!" - and he's not kidding.

 

Other options to defeat the Empire:

1) Devices to produce spontaneous combustion on death, particularly

for the warrior class. Adjustable so you it's big enough to take some deadmeat with you, without risking your family home if you fall in the bath.

 

2) Highly mobile sniper forces to take out the "officers". This is combined with enough traps and "dead-end" sites where the zombies walk in but not out that the army needs to keep C3 capacity.

 

3) Make a deal with those guys from "Aliens" - and I don't mean the colonial marines.

 

4) There must be something that eats undead, I mean dead stuff is made to be recycled into living stuff. Some sort of fungus? What happens if it gets on a living person? Remember your eyebrow and other hair is technically dead you could end up looking like a victim of a fraternity prank.

 

5) Zombies can't fly, and they don't climb too good either.

[Vondy]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

 

4) There must be something that eats undead, I mean dead stuff is made to be recycled into living stuff. Some sort of fungus? What happens if it gets on a living person? Remember your eyebrow and other hair is technically dead you could end up looking like a victim of a fraternity prank.

 

Time to cultivate vats of Rot Grub.

 

That picture from the old Monster Manual really bothered me when I was a kid...

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

4) There must be something that eats undead, I mean dead stuff is made to be recycled into living stuff.

 

Summon Carrion Bird

[Damascan]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

If I were to work this out' date=' I would probably postulate a religion in this society that stated that being made undead was actually a passage to a higher state, a reward for loyal earthly service. It does let you avoid true death after all. Thus, the plebians of the society would look forward to their postmortem zombification and not view it as something to be feared.[/quote']

Privet, Vestnik! Или лучше "привет"?

 

For your idea to work, there would have to be some communication from the dead who had become undead --- they would be used as recruiter types, I guess. Of course, it could all be a ruse, using magic to have a zombie imitate a known deceased and say how wonderful it is to be a zombie, how good it feels, etc. On the other hand, it could all be legit.

 

Summon Carrion Bird

That would work with zombies, especially if the birds went for the eyes. That is, if zombies see through their eyes.... Would you need 'Summon Ravenous Dog' to take care of the skeletons?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

For your idea to work, there would have to be some communication from the dead who had become undead --- they would be used as recruiter types, I guess. Of course, it could all be a ruse, using magic to have a zombie imitate a known deceased and say how wonderful it is to be a zombie, how good it feels, etc. On the other hand, it could all be legit.

 

You wouldn't necessarily need any proof. It's only modern cynicism that requires that level of proof about things. Something like this should be an act of faith, as it's obviously a part of their religion.

 

That would work with zombies, especially if the birds went for the eyes. That is, if zombies see through their eyes.... Would you need 'Summon Ravenous Dog' to take care of the skeletons?

 

Mice are well-known for gnawing on bones and stuff. That's why there aren't years and years worth of shed deer antlers littering the forest floor.

[assault]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

This reminds me of a society I designed twenty years ago or so, influenced by one of Edgar Rice Burrough's Mars books.

 

Basically, the undead are seen as "the ancestors" - an integral part of the family. You don't show them any more disrespect than you would your grandmother. Because she is your grandmother. Presumably the undead start to fall apart after a while, so most houses have a bunch of the ancestors sitting around out the back.

 

Occasionally, of course, their descendents ask them for advice... And get it!

 

Presumably upper class ancestors are likely to be better preserved, and much less likely to be put to work as another hand in the fields. That makes noble courts rather creepy, since all those folks sitting on the upper balcony are dead...

[Vestnik]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Privet, Vestnik! Или лучше "привет"?

 

For your idea to work, there would have to be some communication from the dead who had become undead --- they would be used as recruiter types, I guess. Of course, it could all be a ruse, using magic to have a zombie imitate a known deceased and say how wonderful it is to be a zombie, how good it feels, etc. On the other hand, it could all be legit.

 

 

Zdravstvuite! Mne vse ravno, kakoi alfavit Vy izpolzuete.

 

Lots of people in the real world belief in life after death without any physical evidence whatsoever. I think that a religion that could actually demonstrate its ability to make you keep going on in some fashion wouldn't have a problem finding adherents.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Or if it's established that a body can't be animated until the spirit has moved on, it could be considered "proof" that someone has gone on to their final reward/punishment.

 

Of course executed criminals would be another source...and if need more, just convict more folks!

[Markdoc]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Also check out The Awakeners: Northshore & Southshore (two book series) by Sherri S Tepper. Overall a pretty nifty read and it depicts an uprising in a society where dead people are recycled first as labour and then (once they have ripened enough) food for the alien overlords. In return the ruling class gets not quite immortality, but greatly lengthened life-spans

 

cheers, Mark

[Badger]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

If you want to limit some of the potential power of this nation, make its food production less than ideal.

 

Honestly, how healthy is it for a corpse to farm for you? Just say that the magic doesn't stop the spread of disease, so food needs to be imported, or living humans need to handle it themselves.

 

What I was thinking. If in real life you dont want people handling your food without wahing their hands. Imagine if that dead guy is handling your food.

[Badger]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Zdravstvuite! Mne vse ravno, kakoi alfavit Vy izpolzuete.

 

Lots of people in the real world belief in life after death without any physical evidence whatsoever. I think that a religion that could actually demonstrate its ability to make you keep going on in some fashion wouldn't have a problem finding adherents.

 

And considering we model Fantasy after Middle Ages a lot of times. The Middle Ages were notoriously known for people taking things on faith.

[The Weapon]

Re: Social Effects of the Undead in the Empire

 

Or if it's established that a body can't be animated until the spirit has moved on, it could be considered "proof" that someone has gone on to their final reward/punishment.

 

Of course executed criminals would be another source...and if need more, just convict more folks!

 

Shades of Larry Niven's "The Jigsaw Man" in which executed felons (including 3 time drunk drivers) were used for organ donors.