Tuala Morn Discussion

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I was a bit surprised not to see Llywelyn in the Tuala Morn bibliography, but maybe Steve hadn't run across her work before.

 

I've seen them, but haven't read them, so I didn't feel comfortable including them. I got tired a long time ago of modern Fantasy authors rehashing mythology, so I've generally skipped over books like hers*, but if I'm in the mood I'll check them out sometime.

 

 

*: She loses 2 points for masquerading as a guy, what with the name "Morgan." At least Tommi and Bobbi are kind enough to change the spelling.

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Side note: have no fear, I am still working on the Encyclopedia Tuala. It's just that between deadlines, the large number of names and places to index, and my limited time to work on it, it's proceeding at a much slower pace than I'd expected. But eventually the tortoise shall cross the finish line.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I've seen them' date=' but haven't read them, so I didn't feel comfortable including them. I got tired a long time ago of modern Fantasy authors rehashing mythology, so I've generally skipped over books like hers*, but if I'm in the mood I'll check them out sometime.[/quote']

 

Of course you would never do such a thing in one of your books.

 

(Just kidding Steve, I get your point.)

 

 

*: She loses 2 points for masquerading as a guy' date=' what with the name "Morgan." At least Tommi and Bobbi are kind enough to change the spelling. [/quote']

 

Unlike that "LeFay" broad.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Those are both good reads' date=' and especially useful for a "heroic" Tuala Morn campaign, since Llywelyn tones down the sometimes-outrageous escapades in the [i']Tain[/i] a fair bit. For a sense of old Irish law, too, her Finn Mac Cool is worth a look. I would also recommend Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish, which is Llywelyn's take on the Book of Invasions. The Horse Goddess and Druids are based on the older Hallstatt culture and on the Roman conquest of Gaul, respectively, but the latter may still be worthwhile for another perspective on those ever-elusive druids.

 

I was a bit surprised not to see Llywelyn in the Tuala Morn bibliography, but maybe Steve hadn't run across her work before. I always find her "adaptations" of the legends and early literature entertaining and well-researched, and they often ride an interesting borderline between historical novel and low fantasy. Can't go wrong.

 

I've read just about everything she's written, sifting for data. Some were wonderful reads, some were really quite dull, but all contained ufesful tidbits.

I agree that the cultural information in Finn MacCool is worth the price of the book. Another of her oft overlooked gems is Last Prince of Ireland, a book thats dear to my heart (my reenactment group used to focus on the 9 Years War period and its lead up).

 

What are some of the textbooks you use for your class?

I've been looking for better references for Brehon Law.... I have a copy of Sex and Marriage in Ancient Ireland, which covers a lot of the social laws, inheretance rights and the like (and is a facinating read in its own right), but I'd still like to expand my dead tree collection on the subject.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

[. . .] Kingdom-building rules for Ultimate Base[. . .]

. . . I'm probably weird in that I got a shiver of happiness running up my spine when I read those words . . .

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I've seen them, but haven't read them, so I didn't feel comfortable including them. I got tired a long time ago of modern Fantasy authors rehashing mythology, so I've generally skipped over books like hers*, but if I'm in the mood I'll check them out sometime.

 

 

*: She loses 2 points for masquerading as a guy, what with the name "Morgan." At least Tommi and Bobbi are kind enough to change the spelling.

 

She's good.

 

And as LL just pointed out... It started as a Girl's name, derived from Morrigan. Blame all the idiots who started giving their sons a girly name.

 

(The proper spelling of the name I go by IRL is Cailean. This is read by most english readers as Kayleen. In fact, it's a gaelic spelling of Colin. This isn't really all that suprising for my family. My clan is MacAoidh, my cousins are Farquharsons, my brother in law is named Caven, and my nephew is Ruari. If I ever have a son his name will be Cieran.)

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I'm well aware of how the name started out, etc.

 

She still loses points.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

It started as a Girl's name, derived from Morrigan. Blame all the idiots who started giving their sons a girly name.

 

Morgan's also a surname. Surnames have long been a source of names for boys, (and boys' names have been a source for girls' names lately). I'm pretty sure the first people to name their boy Morgan were thinking of the surname, since having a girly name would get a kid beaten up in nearly any time or place.

[Steve]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Do Tuala Morn character building guidelines follow the premise of starting at 8 for primary characteristics, like was done in Valdorian Age? Since it's a Low Fantasy setting, would that also mean lower characteristics?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Morgan's also a surname. Surnames have long been a source of names for boys' date=' (and boys' names have been a source for girls' names lately). I'm pretty sure the first people to name their boy Morgan were thinking of the surname, since having a girly name would get a kid beaten up in nearly any time or place.[/quote']

 

Yeah I know.

The best known line of Morgans, the Scots clan, are relatives of mine (the MacAoidhs and the Morgans are closely related).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Do Tuala Morn character building guidelines follow the premise of starting at 8 for primary characteristics' date=' like was done in [i']Valdorian Age[/i]? Since it's a Low Fantasy setting, would that also mean lower characteristics?

 

No.

 

Valdorian Age is a Low Fantasy setting in a world that is declining.

 

Tuala Morn is a Low Fantasy setting in a world that is changing.

Low Fantasy here means magic is rare, but when it shows up is powerful - sometimes simply by virtue of being magic. There are no Magic Shops - indeed there aren't even "Sword and Armor Shops" one must find a Smith to craft their metal gear. Thus armor is also rare, though swords are fairly common.

 

Make no mistake, the Heroic Level Tuala Morn still has plenty of room for grand heroic feats.

 

The impression I got was that the standard Heroic Level (75+75) was the default level for Tuala Morn, with room to run some Superheroic (i.e. Truly Fantastic) adventures should one want to.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

ghost-angel' date=' that's one of the most thorough and informative reviews of a Hero Games book I've ever seen. I really feel that I know what I'll be getting when I buy it. [/quote']

 

Thank you.

 

Anyone can tell you how cool they thought a book was.

 

I strive to tell you What Your Getting - after all that's why I read reviews.

 

Then I'll tell you how cool it is

 

(or in the case of Tuala Morn just plain Awesome.)

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I've seen them' date=' but haven't read them, so I didn't feel comfortable including them. I got tired a long time ago of modern Fantasy authors rehashing mythology, so I've generally skipped over books like hers*, but if I'm in the mood I'll check them out sometime.[/quote']

 

I'd put Llywelyn in a slightly different category--I know a lot of booksellers put her on the sci-fi/fantasy shelf, but her better work really only marginally passes as fantasy. Finn Mac Cool, for instance, strips away the magical aspects of the mythology to the point where you're left with a profound ambiguity; the book also leaves the question of whether its Finn is a larger-than-life figure or a self-deluded self-promoter very open. I finished it not knowing whether I really liked the guy, and not sure how much I was intended to sympathize (as opposed to empathize) with him. To me, it qualifies better as an historical romance (not as in Harlequin!) than even as low fantasy.

 

*: She loses 2 points for masquerading as a guy' date=' what with the name "Morgan." At least Tommi and Bobbi are kind enough to change the spelling. [/quote']

 

Or is it that Morgan Freeman is masquerading as a woman? If you know the answer to that question, please, please, please don't tell me.

[Bismark]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Having had a look at the preview and the reviews and earlier comments, I will almost certainly buy this, even though I normally have an aversion to anything that says 'Celtic' and then appears to be Scottish/Welsh/Irish (living in the UK and playing a lot of Pendragon, this stuff usually elicits a big 'yawn').

 

My interests lie, like one of the earlier posters, with the Iron Age Halstatt/La Tene period continental cultures (roll on those ubiquitous bronze Montefortino helmets...).

 

One 'plus point' of those cultures is that you can have 'knights' that are a core part of the culture - the noble cavalry occasionally armoured in mail (which is generally thought to be a Celtic invention anyway) with the distinctive 4-horned saddles later adopted by Rome (as were shoulder protectors characteristic of Celtic mail shirts).

 

If you want to throw in a 'curve ball' try the culture thought to be a hybrid of Celtic and Dacian - the Bastarnae. They have light cavalry supported by infantry (specially selected for their fitness and running ability) in what was at the time a 'German' way of fighting (and which usually allowed the German cavalry to win against most Celtic cavalry, who did not use supporting infantry), some 'standard' unarmoured sword, spear + shield warriors, and some armed with the Dacian 2-handed sica battle-scythe (known to the Romans as a falx). Add in a healthy dose of frothing 'win-or-die-trying' attitude, and they could be fun…

 

The suggested use of the rules to enforce a less 'generic' way of character-building and keep things consistent with the genre being emulated is a very good idea, as other posters have previously stated.

 

The use of what appears to be phonetic spelling for the 'beasties' (at least, those in the preview) is a nice touch - previously, I have seen only RuneQuestIII make an attempt at telling people how to pronounce the names of the critters (they spelt the names conventionally, then put the pronunciation in brackets afterwards).

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

What are some of the textbooks you use for your class?

I've been looking for better references for Brehon Law.... I have a copy of Sex and Marriage in Ancient Ireland, which covers a lot of the social laws, inheretance rights and the like (and is a facinating read in its own right), but I'd still like to expand my dead tree collection on the subject.

 

My reading list probably won't help you very much on that count. My goals for the course have been to primarily cover the pre-Roman Iron Age, to present a reasonably balanced coverage of continental and insular Celtdom, and to use the available archaeological and historical evidence to build at least a broad anthropological understanding. Early medieval Irish law texts aren't getting a lot of very specific coverage, but I am assigning some readings that reference them.

 

The required (purchased) readings include:

• Simon James' World of the Celts as a general topical/thematic source; I encourage the students to start with the assigned pages for a broad overview and then move into the more specialized readings on a topic.
  
• Simon James' The Atlantic Celts as an introduction to the many issues of relationship between Iron Age and recent Celtic speakers (a disclaimer, since this book is controversial: I tend to place a bit more emphasis on the very real linguistic and genetic relationships than did Simon, with whom I am somewhat acquainted, but I am inclined to agree with him that the transmission of some cultural essence across two thousand years is problematic).
  
• A volume edited by Bettina Arnold and D. Blair Gibson, Celtic Chiefdom, Celtic State: The Evolution of Complex Social Systems in Prehistoric Europe; as the title implies, this is a collection of short chapters spotlighting anthropological perspectives on sociopolitical organization and political economy.
  
• And Thomas Kinsella's translation of the Tain, which the students will be reading as an example of Celtic mythology.

There are also quite a few library-reserve readings from sources I chose not to use in their entirety:

• The Celtic World, the enormous 1995 edited volume edited by Miranda Green and written by just about every well-known Celtic archaeologist in Europe, Britain, and Ireland.
  
• The Ancient Celts by Barry Cunliffe.
  
• The Celts, edited by Venceslas Kruta and colleagues, an edited volume from a 1991 exhibition in Italy with a strong art-historical and classical bent.
  
• Tribal Societies in Northern Gaul by Nico Roymans; his chapter on sociopolitical organization is one of my favorite one-stop resources on the subject.
  
• Towns, Villages, and Countryside of Celtic Europe by Francoise Audouze and Olivier Buchsenschutz. A good treatment on all things settlement-related, from household architecture and fortifications to regional settlement patterns.
  
• And a small number of journal articles I found useful for their coverage of such subjects as gender roles, feasting/drinking, cemetery archaeology, environmental archaeology, and so forth.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Having had a look at the preview and the reviews and earlier comments' date=' I will almost certainly buy this, even though I normally have an aversion to anything that says 'Celtic' and then appears to be Scottish/Welsh/Irish (living in the UK and playing a lot of Pendragon, this stuff usually elicits a big 'yawn').[/quote']

 

Hey, I'm Scottish, Welsh, and Irish! (And English, Swedish, Baden-Wurttemberger, Pomeranian, and Cherokee...see what happens when Yanks do genealogies?)

 

My interests lie' date=' like one of the earlier posters, with the Iron Age Halstatt/La Tene period continental cultures (roll on those ubiquitous bronze [i']Montefortino [/i]helmets...).

 

Nice, aren't they?

 

The use of what appears to be phonetic spelling for the 'beasties' (at least' date=' those in the preview) is a nice touch - previously, I have seen only RuneQuestIII make an attempt at telling people how to pronounce the names of the critters (they spelt the names conventionally, then put the pronunciation in brackets afterwards).[/quote']

 

Many of the names are a bit less phonetic, although there is a brief pronunciation guide in the first chapter. Ah, the cruel jest of fate that is Old Irish orthography...

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

. . . I'm probably weird in that I got a shiver of happiness running up my spine when I read those words . . .

 

Not really. Hmmm...kingdom building rules and a dollop of Tuala Morn expansion...OW! My bank account!

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

The impression I got was that the standard Heroic Level (75+75) was the default level for Tuala Morn' date=' with room to run some Superheroic (i.e. Truly Fantastic) adventures should one want to.[/quote']

 

Well, that would be my preference, anyway. Although it has occurred to me to work out lower-powered versions of some of the superheroic feats like the salmon leap and the warrior's scream so heroic-level characters can share in a little of that kind of fun.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Well' date=' that would be my [i']preference,[/i] anyway. Although it has occurred to me to work out lower-powered versions of some of the superheroic feats like the salmon leap and the warrior's scream so heroic-level characters can share in a little of that kind of fun.

 

I've done quite a lot of that for my old game, as well as write ups for riastradh, the hero-fire, tathalum.

 

Cuchulainn is certainly a Superheroic character, as is Fionn even if you downplay his magic.

Heck... a properly built write up of Fionn would get sunk on Followers alone

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Do Tuala Morn character building guidelines follow the premise of starting at 8 for primary characteristics, like was done in Valdorian Age? Since it's a Low Fantasy setting, would that also mean lower characteristics?

 

No. That sort of approach is quite appropriate for the S&S-style setting of VA, but not for what I envision for TM. "Low Fantasy" in this case has more to do with the tone, power, and utility of magic, not with a general weakening of characters.

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

(they spelt the names conventionally, then put the pronunciation in brackets afterwards)

 

I spell the name conventionally (or pick the spelling I like best from the various suggested conventional options ), but then have a "Pronunciation" entry in the character description if necessary.

 

Similarly, the Encyclopedia Tuala has a "Pronunciation" column for all the names in the book.

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

kingdom building rules and a dollop of Tuala Morn expansion

 

Not to burst any bubbles, but I'm not sure how much of what comes out of that campaign will be "official." Since I want to test the Kingdom-building rules, I'm mostly going to let the PCs build their kingdoms (or duchies, in this case) they way they want, not how I would necessarily do it "officially." Similarly, I'll monkey with the history of Logres to create conditions optimal for testing the rules.

 

But on the principle of "no point doing unnecessary work," it's entirely possible some of all that stuff may become "canonical."

 

I'm starting with Logres on the grounds that I want to first test the Kingdom-building rules without a lot of magic getting in the way. If all goes according to plan (never a safe assumption with my gaming group ), then I'll run a short playtest in a magic-intensive Fantasy setting, then probably one where they write up planets or entire interstellar empires and fight a galactic war.

[Publius]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I spell the name conventionally (or pick the spelling I like best from the various suggested conventional options ), but then have a "Pronunciation" entry in the character description if necessary.

 

Similarly, the Encyclopedia Tuala has a "Pronunciation" column for all the names in the book.

I'm waiting for someone to say that they came from "Cat Hair" such-and-such, I have a response all picked out.

[Vondy]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

No.

 

Valdorian Age is a Low Fantasy setting in a world that is declining.

 

I found this choice interesting since the source material it mimics generally has protagonists and antagonists who are peak-performance humans, if not larger than life in many respects. Its not wrong, just not what I expected. On the other hand, if you use 8 as the base a guy maxed out at 20 does seem pretty impressive.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I'm waiting for someone to say that they came from "Cat Hair" such-and-such' date=' I have a response all picked out.[/quote']

 

Or "dow-ee-nuh sid-hee," or some such. I'll admit, though, that I was constantly flipping back to the pronunciation guide when I was reading the Tain. It was worth it, though; I'm a little more likely to get Irish right after that experience. I have this sneaking hunch that the orthography was consciously designed to confuse the English.