Tuala Morn Discussion

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

But on the principle of "no point doing unnecessary work' date='" it's entirely possible some of all that stuff may become "canonical." [/quote']

 

All I can say is that if you find a way to include it, I'll buy you lunch. Actually, this book sounds like it's going to get you a lunch either way, but don't let that soften the bribe...

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Oooooh, lunch.... :

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I have this sneaking hunch that the orthography was consciously designed to confuse the English.

 

I'd have to agree with that. I have several different Irish pronunciation guides, and none of them fully agree with any of the others.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I'd have to agree with that. I have several different Irish pronunciation guides' date=' and none of them fully agree with any of the others. [/quote']

Preach it!

I have no less than 4 dictionaries and I still have to cross reference the heck out of things.

 

Occasonally leads to some amusing discoveries, like when I was looking for a gaelic term for "camp followers". After a ton of research I came to realize that one of the modern usage gaelic synomyms for "baggage" literally translates as "Black Wife" (dubh-chaile) and was used to refer to women who followed the baggage train.

 

I've been working on my pronunciation for over 20 years now and my brain still vaporlocks when I see Murtheimne (to grab one example at random) in written form.

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

The one that always gets me is to look at the proper spelling of the surname written in English as "O'Sullivan." Goes on for a mile and a half and has more vowels than any five Serbo-Croatian place-names. O'Suilleabheanne or some such nonsense.

 

I do kind of enjoy looking at traditional Irish writing/fonts, though. I had thoughts of creating a Tualan alphabet and getting a friend to turn it into a font that we could give away as a freebie, but I haven't had time to get 'round to it.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

The one that always gets me is to look at the proper spelling of the surname written in English as "O'Sullivan." Goes on for a mile and a half and has more vowels than any five Serbo-Croatian place-names. O'Suilleabheanne or some such nonsense.

 

I do kind of enjoy looking at traditional Irish writing/fonts, though. I had thoughts of creating a Tualan alphabet and getting a friend to turn it into a font that we could give away as a freebie, but I haven't had time to get 'round to it.

 

Ó Suileabháin

 

the aforementioned Last Prince of Irelandis about Donal Cam Ó Suileabháin Beare and his infamous march to escape the English

 

The alphabet sounds cool.

Once upon a time I tried to memorize Ogham, but I didn't drill the mnemonics enough and lost the whole bloody thing.

that's why I keep reference books around, I guess.

[Bismark]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Hey' date=' [i']I'm[/i] Scottish, Welsh, and Irish! (And English, Swedish, Baden-Wurttemberger, Pomeranian, and Cherokee...see what happens when Yanks do genealogies?)

:

I'm part-Scottish by ancestry - from a particularly backward and savage part (well, at least in Roman times) apparently (just south of the Northern Isles, in fact); hence one of my workmates in my last job referred to me as the 'moss-eating savage'

 

 

Nice' date=' aren't they?[/quote']:

Montefortino helmets became rather 'oh no, not again' for me when I was painting a 15mm scale Second Punic War Carthaginian army - there were a lot of them (my Gallic and Celtiberian mercs all used it, as did some of the Iberian cavalry). At least it's a nice, uncluttered easy to paint design - unlike putting the 2 herons facing each other on the shield of my Gallic sub-general, which was fiddly (to put it mildly).

 

I suppose the Tuala Morn spearmen (if they are the classic spear-and-shield merchants) could have within their ranks the rich types who can afford a sword as well; as I recall, in the La Tene III culture, primary spear wielders tended to use the short version of the antenna-hilted sword, the (famous) longer sword being used by those who threw their spears before contact.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I found this choice interesting since the source material it mimics generally has protagonists and antagonists who are peak-performance humans' date=' if not larger than life in many respects. Its not wrong, just not what I expected. On the other hand, if you use 8 as the base a guy maxed out at 20 does seem pretty impressive.[/quote']

 

The wording was close to a direct quote from Valdorian Age itself - p92 under the Basics header.

[Old Man]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Hey' date=' [i']I'm[/i] Scottish, Welsh, and Irish! (And English, Swedish, Baden-Wurttemberger, Pomeranian, and Cherokee...see what happens when Yanks do genealogies?)

 

At least you can do yours. I can't trace mine back more than five generations--we have the sneaking suspicion that someone ran away from somewhere and took steps to not be found. The stuff I can trace is all of British Isles descent, and the surname is ultimately misspelt Scottish.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I'd have to agree with that. I have several different Irish pronunciation guides' date=' and none of them fully agree with any of the others. [/quote']

 

I'm sure there are some subregional dialectic variations that confuse the issue. Heck, my brain is still numb from learning that in a country as small as the Netherlands, people living within two hours' drive of one another can have difficulty understanding one another's dialect. Europe operates on a whole different scale than the USA.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

As the discussion has drifted well of course... I'm gonna try and bring it back.

 

Has anyone put any thoughts into aspects of Tuala Morn they'd likely alter for their own home campaigns run in the setting? And why?

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

At least you can do yours. I can't trace mine back more than five generations--we have the sneaking suspicion that someone ran away from somewhere and took steps to not be found. The stuff I can trace is all of British Isles descent' date=' and the surname is ultimately misspelt Scottish.[/quote']

 

I'm surprised at how far back my father has been able to trace my maternal genealogy in Britain. We know, for example, that Cromwell's headsman--yes, the one who did for King Chuck--was an ancestor. Dad also learned that there was a Stewart back there who held the Isle of Jura (where Orwell later wrote 1984) but was tossed out for being Protestant before Protestantism was politically correct in Scotland. Those bits are pretty far back there.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

As the discussion has drifted well of course... I'm gonna try and bring it back.

 

Has anyone put any thoughts into aspects of Tuala Morn they'd likely alter for their own home campaigns run in the setting? And why?

 

My first thought was to cut the wizard package, but as I debate it with myself, I don't know whether I'll go through with that. I kind of like the way druids and wizards access the same style of magic through different methods. It turns the old D&D "divine"/"arcane" dichotomy neatly on its head. Besides, some players might come to the setting with thoughts of Merlin without being aware that the legendary Merlin could be a druid. Ease of translation and all that.

 

I know that I'm probably going to reduce the stone castles to motte-and-bailey types and/or hillforts. That's mostly a change in flavor text as the book presents it, but it creates more of a post-Roman/early medieval vibe for me, or evokes the earliest versions of the Arthur legends rather than the Mallory versions that the castles Steve describes bring to my mind.

 

Similarly, I'm debating the role of knights. I kind of like the "changing times" angle, so I may keep them as well, but tone down the plate armor in favor of plate and chain. Again steering closer to a "dark ages/early medieval" feel. If I keep them, they're going to be about as common as the Golden Temple is prominent from place to place. I don't want to make them into paladins, but I do want to emphasize that they are a newfangled type of warrior closely connected to newfangled religious and social values imported from a foreign land.

 

That's a few off the top, and mostly not rules-related. I'm trying to meet Steve's vision of the setting halfway as much as I can, because I think many of the things that aren't quite as I would have done them are more marketable Steve's way, and that's as much a consideration when drawing players as when writing a setting book that you want to sell.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I understand why Steve would have sanitized the druids a little bit by pushing the human sacrifice aspects to a secret sect of "dark druids' date='" but if ([i']and only if![/i]) I were running a game with mature enough players who can deal with a more alien cultural mindset, I would seriously consider whether such practices and the spells and powers associated with them in the setting could be more mainstream. I don't want to depict human sacrifice as a large-scale or daily occurrence, because I don't think it was more than occasional most of the time in Iron Age through early medieval Europe. I also don't want to have it happen without raising the possibility that some people and even some druids found it offensive. (I also teach a course on human and animal sacrifice, by the way...)

 

Ya know what? This is a terrible idea, and I decided not to go to bed without disclaiming myself. Tuala Morn is basically a romantic setting for larger-than-life heroes, and although I think it has room for some shades of gray, doing something like this would instantly plunge any campaign into the grim'n'gritty, no matter who was playing in it. I've excised the above paragraph from my last post, but I comment on it here as an object lesson in letting professional interests interfere with a damned good game.

[James Gillen]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Yes' date=' that's pretty much it. For once I wanted to try doing something with HERO where more specific "you can't do this" instructions are part of the overall setting, to create a specific feel or what have you. Just to show that even genericness isn't a requirement. Though of course I'm sure some people will tweak the setting to suit themselves regardless of what I say, and honestly as long as they're having fun that's fine with me. [/quote']

 

That isn't TOO unheard of, though. In The Valdorian Age, magic has to follow certain very clear rules in order for it to work in the setting.

 

JG

[James Gillen]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I found this choice interesting since the source material it mimics generally has protagonists and antagonists who are peak-performance humans' date=' if not larger than life in many respects. Its not wrong, just not what I expected. On the other hand, if you use 8 as the base a guy maxed out at 20 does seem pretty impressive.[/quote']

 

If there was anything I disliked about Valdorian Age, it was that "base 8" - not only because it skews with Hero Designer, but because it's rather difficult to play a "mighty-thewed warrior." Put another way, in The Valdorian Age, you're not playing Conan the Destroyer. You're not even playing Grace Jones. You're playing that weedy little thief who would stab the bad guys after Conan had already cut them down.

 

JG

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Europe operates on a whole different scale than the USA.

 

Very true. I think that offers some intriguing possibilities for setting design for gaming, if you pay attention to it. You can create all kinds of social and cultural differences in what we (as Americans) would consider a very small area if you pay attention. You don't necessarily need a world the size of Greyhawk or Ambrethel.

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Ya know what? This is a terrible idea, and I decided not to go to bed without disclaiming myself.

 

And here we see the essential maturity of the intelligent HERO gamer.

 

I agree that I didn't create the setting for "grim and gritty" play, but I don't think it's beyond the pale to tweak it like that if you wanted. Just get rid of the more fantastical or anachronistic elements and decrease the magic level even more, and you could probably create a campaign along the lines of the Kay or Barnitz novels I mention in the Bibliography.

 

Besides which... the kids love the human sacrifice. I'm told it's all the rage these days, along with those hip-riding jeans.

[naturaltwenty]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

I'm awaiting the FedEx person with baited breath. While I wait does the bibliography include any of the Katherine Kerr novels (Daggerspell, Darkspell, etc.)?

 

Later

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

No, the Kerr books aren't included. I've read one or two of them (and keep thinking I should read more, since they're not bad), but the ones I've read didn't strike me as overwhelmingly Celtic in "feel" -- and certainly they weren't in any way a conscious influence over my creation of Tuala Morn.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Very true. I think that offers some intriguing possibilities for setting design for gaming' date=' if you pay attention to it. You can create all kinds of social and cultural differences in what we (as Americans) would consider a [i']very[/i] small area if you pay attention. You don't necessarily need a world the size of Greyhawk or Ambrethel.

 

Right. And Tuala Morn isn't that big (I guesstimated it as a little shy of 850 miles east-west and slightly more than 600 miles north-south)--bigger than Ireland by far, but still pretty dinky by American standards.

 

Actually, that reminds me of a question I had. Is there a scaling problem with the Northlands map? At a glance, those water routes across the Aquitainian Sea seem like they should be about three times greater if the 850 x 600 mile estimate for Tuala Morn is correct.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

Besides which... the kids love the human sacrifice. I'm told it's all the rage these days' date=' along with those hip-riding jeans.[/quote']

 

Well, I do find it a worthwhile course and a different anthropological angle on questions of violence and socety than students sometimes get. I make 'em watch "Dead Man Walking" and write an essay on the question of whether American capital punishment counts as human sacrifice (not whether they APPROVE of the death penalty, which is hard to keep out of it, but I make them try). But I digress again.

 

As for hip-riding jeans...unlike human sacrifice, I'm certain of my completely approving stance on that subject.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

The "Music to Raise the Dead" thread gives me a thought. What sort of background music would one use for a Tuala Morn game? I can think of a number of songs on my Enya CDs, the "Braveheart" soundtrack, and a couple of tracks on "Last of the Mohicans." What else might there be? Good musical choices could really sell the ambience of this setting.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

The "Music to Raise the Dead" thread gives me a thought. What sort of background music would one use for a Tuala Morn game? I can think of a number of songs on my Enya CDs' date=' the "Braveheart" soundtrack, and a couple of tracks on "Last of the Mohicans." What else might there be? Good musical choices could really sell the ambience of this setting.[/quote']

Good question.

I have a metric buttload of Celtic music.

Most don't set the mood for gaming well.

Lyrics get in the way (generally... there are exceptions, like some Heather Alexander and/or her work with Uffington Horse, her new band). Some of her tracks would work well, but that's kinda to be expected.... She's a gamer as well. March of Cambreath was written about a D&D Campaign and is very stirring.

Enya works for me, but a lot of people have the knee-jerk Southpark response to her music. Soundtracks are a good call (Rob Roy, Michael Collins, Far and Away, maybe?). I used a lot of the "Ambient" Celtic music they sell on those stupid aisle displays at places like Target and K-Mart (Celtic Twilight and the like) but they don't exactly get the spirit moving...good ffor quiet scenes, journeys to the Otherworld and the like, but lacking in something...that ephermal "something" that propmted the outlawing of bards, harpers and pipers as "weapons of war".

The Young Dubliners arraingment of "Follow Me up to Carlow" is one that'll get the blood going. I'll think on it somemore, go over my playlist and see what I can come up with.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Tuala Morn Discussion

 

No' date=' the Kerr books aren't included. I've read one or two of them (and keep thinking I should read more, since they're not bad), but the ones I've read didn't strike me as overwhelmingly Celtic in "feel" -- and certainly they weren't in any way a conscious influence over my creation of Tuala Morn.[/quote']

 

Shame. They are one of the things I thought of when the setting was described, along with Lloyd Alexander's Prydain.

 

To be clear tho.... Keers setting is similar to Feists Midkemia... extra dimensional relocation of a people. The origins of her "humans" are roman-era Gauls, not Albian celts. Worth checking out, for the evolution of a medevial/dark age society from a gaulish root culture rather than a roman one.