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FH Gripes


atlascott

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Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

I get that. What you appear to be saying is that if someone is hit in Area 13, and they're wearing solid armor over their chest (Area 10-11), that hit might be to an organ in the chest.

 

Now, why do you say that I appear to be saying that? I haven’t said that. Yet.

 

Yes, mechanically, you aren't "bypassing armor;" you're hitting an unarmored location.

 

Only if it is, in fact, an unarmored location.

 

But the game description of that location somehow appears to be under armor. From the character's point of view, it makes no sense: "I'm wearing solid armor over my upper torso, yet he somehow stabbed me in the heart, and the armor didn't help at all! *gasp* *wheeze* Ow. Oooh. Ow. Oy, ow. Dead."

 

Perhaps it refers to "the heart, lungs, and other things inside the chest cavity as well as other vulnerable locations which are located elsewhere". Are there any precedents within the system for armor which covers location 13, but FAILS to cover locations 10-11? With such a precedent, it would certainly be clear that the vitals must exclude the heart and lungs, as one could not provide full coverage for the vitals without covering the chest.

 

The fact that some armor covers locations 10-11, but not 13, proves it is possible to strike a vital area which is not in those locations. It does not provide that there are no vital areas in those locations.

 

Thank you, Mr. Neilson.

 

Let me reiterate that a random hit to location 13, or even a called shot to location 13, does not have to mean going for the heart.

 

 

 

That would be a hit to some other vital area on the body. This would include vital bits in the groin. I don't think anyone is saying that location 13 doesn't include the groin. I believe they're saying that it's the groin and other stuff as well. So, it could mean the bladder (groin), femoral arteries (groin and legs), kidneys & liver (stomach), heart & lungs (chest), the subclavian artery (arms), spinal hits (neck to groin) and so forth. Thus, if someone is wearing a breast plate and takes a Vitals hit, it could be a hit to any of those vitals not covered by the breast plate (basically everything listed above except the heart and lungs).

 

Also, a lot of discussion has centered around the fact that the breastplate does not cover location 13 and so location 13 must be in the lower torso. The stomach is already specifically called out, thus the only option left is the pelvic (or groin) area. However, I would also point out that an armored skirt only protects location 14 (thighs) and not location 13. It seems odd to me that a skirt would cover the thighs but not the groin. :think:

 

As Netzilla has pointed out, it could be femoral arteries, subclavian arteries, the spine, I’ve even played in games where it could be the throat. Carpe jugulum!

 

Finally, and most important: If there is no vital area left unarmored, or if a detailed action is called such as I described earlier that involves hitting an armored area (the one I described would certainly have to penetrate any armor covering the chest for example) or even if a random 13 is rolled and the likeliest interpretation looks like it would hit armor, then of course the defender gets the full benefit of the armor. I can hardly believe I have to say this: in my opinion it should go without saying, but since I’m accused of trying to claim that a hit to location 13 somehow bypasses armor, I’ll put it on record that this is not my personal view.

 

Anyway, to me, the solution seems to be simple: redesign the armor. I feel that Loc. 13 represents all kinds of "squishy bits," as someone put it, in the torso. I'd make a chestpiece cover Loc. 13 too, on a 10- Activation Roll.

 

And thank you to L. Marcus for possibly the smartest thing said so far. Not the “10- activation roll” which is probably an overcomplication, but the suggestion that the armor needs to be redesigned. Since it seems that armor is the only real bone of contention anyway.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if the poor dead horse needs barding…

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Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

Let me reiterate that a random hit to location 13, or even a called shot to location 13, does not have to mean going for the heart.

 

As Netzilla has pointed out, it could be femoral arteries, subclavian arteries, the spine, I’ve even played in games where it could be the throat. Carpe jugulum!

 

On top of everything elese, it still makes no sense that there are 15 other number results that strike a specific part of the body, and then one single result that's "oh, wherever it makes sense." :nonp:

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Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

On top of everything elese' date=' it still makes no sense that there are 15 other number results that strike a specific part of the body, and then one single result that's "oh, wherever it makes sense." :nonp:[/quote']

 

Or, to rephrase it "Wherever it hurts the most right now."

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Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

Let me reiterate that a random hit to location 13' date=' or even a called shot to location 13, does not have to mean going for the heart.[/quote']

 

No, but it does mean going for a single location that can theoretically be armored by a single piece.

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Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

On top of everything elese' date=' it still makes no sense that there are 15 other number results that strike a specific part of the body, and then one single result that's "oh, wherever it makes sense." :nonp:[/quote']

 

Which hand? Which arm? Which foot or leg? You can roll randomly, of course, but if my left arm is behind a large shield, how did that dagger sneak around the shield and stab me in the left hand? Hey, if you roll left, I want the defense from my shield to count!

 

If I roll a 10 when backstabbing, did I reach around and strike him in the chest? Does a 12 mean I reached around to hit him in the stomach? I was throwing a spear - did it somehow bounce back?

 

All the rules require some measure of "whatever makes sense within these parameters".

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Given that so many seem to have 'issues' with the hit locations, I really hope that Mr. Long will not only clarify, but also perhaps redo them either as an errata or in the next edition, should there be one.

 

NOTE: I have no problems with the Hit Locations as they are, and should they change I would prefer an errata or even FAQ over a new edition.

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Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

Hey, if it bothers you that much, redefine location 12 to include 13. Or make location 13 a "reroll." Or don't even use hit locations if you don't want to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary still thinks "hit location chart" sound like a map of popular areas to live that a realtor would have hanging on the wall....

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Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

Which hand? Which arm? Which foot or leg? You can roll randomly' date=' of course, but if my left arm is behind a large shield, how did that dagger sneak around the shield and stab me in the left hand? Hey, if you roll left, I want the defense from my shield to count![/quote']

 

And if it were me running, and someone randomly hit your left arm, the shield probably would count.

 

If I roll a 10 when backstabbing, did I reach around and strike him in the chest? Does a 12 mean I reached around to hit him in the stomach? I was throwing a spear - did it somehow bounce back?

 

No, it would hit him in the back of whatever segment of the body you hit -- it's not like the back of his torso somehow isn't still his torso.

 

Which isn't the same as hitting someone in one spot, and having the damage applied or SFXed to something that's actually in a different spot.

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Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

And if it were me running' date=' and someone randomly hit your left arm, the shield probably would count. [/quote']

 

But this is also a handwave, isn't it? In order for the opponent to hit my character and roll on the hit location chart, he needed to roll sufficiently well to get past the bonus DCV that my shield provides. Now, having done so, he rolls a location that my shield covers, and I get an added benefit from my shield which is not provided by the rules.

 

Had he rolled well enough to hit my "no shield" DCV, but not my "with shield" DCV, he woud, by the rules, have hit my shield. He rolled well enough to hit my "with shield" DCV, yet he still hit my shield as if his to hit roll were inadequate. Did he hit, or didn't he?

 

No' date=' it would hit him in the back of whatever segment of the body you hit -- it's not like the back of his torso somehow isn't still his torso. [/quote']

 

As has already been pointed out, the back of the head is better defended than the face. Referring back to sectional armor, what part of the back of the head is not covered by the helmet, such that one of the Head hit locations will bypass it? It seems to me the really vulnerable groin areas are less than fully analogous to the buttocks as well.

 

Which isn't the same as hitting someone in one spot' date=' and having the damage applied or SFXed to something that's actually in a different spot.[/quote']

 

This is a circular argument. If I accept initially that Vitals does not contitute a specific "one spot" then the damage has not moved to a different spot. Your logic is sound only if one initially accepts the presumption that you are correct that "vitals" = "groin".

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Re: the misguided attempt to over-seperate mechanics from SFX

 

But this is also a handwave, isn't it? In order for the opponent to hit my character and roll on the hit location chart, he needed to roll sufficiently well to get past the bonus DCV that my shield provides. Now, having done so, he rolls a location that my shield covers, and I get an added benefit from my shield which is not provided by the rules.

 

Had he rolled well enough to hit my "no shield" DCV, but not my "with shield" DCV, he woud, by the rules, have hit my shield. He rolled well enough to hit my "with shield" DCV, yet he still hit my shield as if his to hit roll were inadequate. Did he hit, or didn't he?

 

Not having had a chance to play in a Fantasy Hero game, I keep forgetting that shields in HERO give a DCV bonus. I'm not sure I care for that system-wise. Partially because of questions like this.

 

As has already been pointed out, the back of the head is better defended than the face. Referring back to sectional armor, what part of the back of the head is not covered by the helmet, such that one of the Head hit locations will bypass it? It seems to me the really vulnerable groin areas are less than fully analogous to the buttocks as well.

 

If nothing else, I dispute the claim that the back of the head is less vulnerable than the front of the head.

 

This is a circular argument. If I accept initially that Vitals does not contitute a specific "one spot" then the damage has not moved to a different spot. Your logic is sound only if one initially accepts the presumption that you are correct that "vitals" = "groin".

 

Actually, my objection stands even without that, and wasn't predicated on that.

 

There are already Hit Locations for all the other areas of the body, leaving the question of the groin asside. If 13 is a wildcard Hit Location, then everything it can hit SFX-wise is already included in another Hit Location. The heart isn't in "the vitals", it's in the Chest, there's already a hit location for that. The femoral arteries are in the Legs, not in "the vitals". Etc, etc, etc, etc.

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Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

Hey' date=' if it bothers you that much, redefine location 12 to include 13. Or make location 13 a "reroll." Or don't even use hit locations if you don't want to.[/quote']

 

No kidding. New house rule to prevent confusion and forstall any arguments:

 

Hit location 12 is now defined as Upper Abdomen

Hit location 13 is now defined as Lower Abdomen

 

Now let's get on with the game...

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If you think this thread is a waste of time, stop reading it.

 

Which hand? Which arm? Which foot or leg?

It's right there in the Hit Location Chart. Something to the effect of "If it matters, roll a d6 to determine right or left side (1-3 = right, 4-6 = left)." It's there in FREd, and I assume it's there in 5ER, too.

 

If I roll a 10 when backstabbing, did I reach around and strike him in the chest? Does a 12 mean I reached around to hit him in the stomach? I was throwing a spear - did it somehow bounce back?

What do you think? Is it not obvious that 10-11 is the upper back (behind the chest), and 12 is the lower back (behind the stomache)? Perhaps the STUNx and BODYx should be changed a bit for hits from behind. These weren't included officially because:

 

1) It adds more complication.

2) The chart wouldn't be that much different from the frontal location results.*

3) Most of the time, the great majority of attacks are going to be to the front side of the opponent.

4) A lot of the time the hit location chart isn't used at all.

 

*Off hand, I'd say increase the damage to area 12 (kindey area), decrease the damage for area 13 (buttocks), and maybe decrease the damage to 3-5 (back of the head). That's about all the change you'd need.

 

Also, on the subject of armor pieces, FH lists a piece of barding called a "crupper" which covers areas 13-14 on a horse. 14 seems to be the upper hind legs. 13 is still called "vitals". But there it is, right next to the upper hind legs, covered by the same piece of armor. :think: Seems to suggest the crotch area to me.

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