FH Gripes

[LordGhee]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Rapier

 

Todd's and stray poodles!

 

rep

 

LG

[Greatwyrm]

Re: FH Gripes

 

4. IF you are running a game with typical gamers' date=' you'll have at least one or two in the group that are constantly going to be maxing skill level, speed, strength, and will look to buy custom, larger and larger weapons so that they can Sweep with a 5d6 k weapon--and their high CSL's means they'll be capable for 3 routine kills per phase (with tough consquences for END, but END is cheap). I have combatted this primarily by making each increment of 5 points in each characteristic double in price past 15. In other words, buying STR from 10 to 15 costs 10 points. To buy it from 15 to 20 costs 20 pts. 20 to 25 costs 40. Players will buy CHAR that they really want, but you will not soon have 40STR guys running around all over the place. It will keep DEX and Sppeds within a reasonable range. This screws with the "Package Deals" however and you'll have to either change point costs for them or allow normal prices to apply for CHAR bought in a package deal.[/quote']

 

This really isn't HERO specific. You'll see this in about any game, but I think that's what you're implying.

 

The key to this in any game is you can't just keep feeding the one-trick ponies. There are tons of ways to teach someone the benefit of not overspecializing. For example, social encounters are always the bane of the combat monster.

 

Heck, somebody paying for 40 STR in a fantasy game probably wouldn't last long when faced with a simple INT drain. He's not going to be much of a threat after that enemy enchanter leaves him sitting on the ground, pondering his belly button. And as cheap as END is to buy, it's just as cheap to drain as well. Suck all that vigor right out of him and let him take stun damage every round just for trying to walk with all that steel strapped to him.

[RPMiller]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Yup sure did. I don't think it was in the FH forum though, it may have been the Champions one.

[CUnknown]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Wow, RPMiller, that is crazy with the 0.1 experience point awards--crazy like a fox! I would incorporate it as a GM, but I wouldn't want the extra bookkeeping. Besides, I guess I don't mind giving away a lot of experience points, either. There is a long way to go in the power scale of my campaign.

[RPMiller]

Re: FH Gripes

 

The extra bookkeeping isn't as bad as you might think. On Hero Central I send PMs to my players with their rewards so that I can refer back to it if need be.

 

Since characters tend to be specialized all their "specific" XP tends to be lumped into one or two skills and stats.

 

A quick simple spreadsheet keeps easy track of what is going on. I trust my players though so I don't worry about them trying to sneak an increase past me, and since they don't get a ton over short periods, increases are spaced out. Not to mention they have to pass through me before they can happen.

[Spence]

Re: FH Gripes

 

After running FH for about 1 1/2 years, here are my observations:

 

1. It's alot of work--alot more work than any other fantasy genre game. It has to do with having to make some important, complex rules decisions the consequences of which cannot be obvious until you are running the game, namely--magic system, caps on stats, caps on skill levels, standard values for weapons damage, armor value, use of shields (DCV bonus or extra armor with activation), balancing armor/defenses with attack damage, balancing magic damage with regular killing damage. There are several others.

 

Don’t see the point here. All good campaigns are a lot of work until they have been in play for a while. And then the reduction in work load is more about being able to recycle bad guys. This is true of any RPG.

 

2. You can use whatever source materials you want' date=' and if you are familair with the HERO system, conversion on the fly or with minimal prep time is a breeze. This has to do with knowing what DCV you party can hit, and knowing how much armor they are capable of penetrating. Point blank, you cannot present them with opponents they cant hit, or cannot damage. [/quote']

 

First part is a given. But for the last statement I completely disagree. In my last FH game, I deliberately gave the party opponents they could not defeat by force of arms. They had to use cunning and alternative methods. In other words think through the problem rather than bash through it. This pulled the non-combat types to the front and the combat monsters to supporting roles. Some of the best sessions we had came from this.

 

3. The objective books--like the monster and enemy books--are perhaps the least valuable in FH' date=' because there is no official approach to anything in FH--from armor to weapons to magic or anything else. A troll in a FH book could be too powerful in your game, or not powerful enough as written. You might be better off buying some other company's book, because they are more detailed in description,motivations, etc.[/quote']

 

I never saw this as a problem. I have been able to build viable characters at all the recommended point levels. FH has been the easiest. If you start the PC’s at the recommended Heroic point level, then everything in FH, the Bestiary, both Asian Bestiaries, MM&M. Heck all of the Heroic supplements fit right in. You just have to pay attention to point levels. In D&D I wouldn’t throw a Dragon at a 1st level party because it looked cool. In a FH game I won’t throw Lesser (597 pts) or a Greater (918 pts) Dragon at a beginning party either. Even with D&D 3.5 you have to adjust “book” creatures sometimes.

 

3. The HERO produced FH settings are not compelling to me or my players' date=' and the campaign books for each are not comprehensive and do not share the production values or comprehensiveness of say, Wizard's Forgotten Realms for even 15 years ago. I run in a setting of my own, which I never got around to fully fleshing out. [/quote']

 

On this one I just do not agree. I went a dug out my mint condition FR campaign set (1993) and it has three books totaling 288 pages between them all. TA totals out at 319. My earlier edition of FH has even less. Now it is true that as the years went on they added things like The Savage Frontiers and Waterdeep (the city). But that came after and only when the core books sold well. But FR itself and TA are very comparable products with TA being cleaner and having more user crunch than FA.

 

4. IF you are running a game with typical gamers' date=' you'll have at least one or two in the group that are constantly going to be maxing skill level, speed, strength, and will look to buy custom, larger and larger weapons so that they can Sweep with a 5d6 k weapon--and their high CSL's means they'll be capable for 3 routine kills per phase (with tough consquences for END, but END is cheap). I have combatted this primarily by making each increment of 5 points in each characteristic double in price past 15. In other words, buying STR from 10 to 15 costs 10 points. To buy it from 15 to 20 costs 20 pts. 20 to 25 costs 40. Players will buy CHAR that they really want, but you will not soon have 40STR guys running around all over the place. It will keep DEX and Sppeds within a reasonable range. This screws with the "Package Deals" however and you'll have to either change point costs for them or allow normal prices to apply for CHAR bought in a package deal.[/quote']

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with the system or setting. Rather with the GM’s control of his game. Lets go point by point.

 

Weapons. The biggest sword out there (Great Sword) only does 2D6. At a max damage can only be doubled, 4D6. above that and it is no longer “mundane” weapon, but a magical one. Since it has a STR min of 17. It means a STR 20 will only have 3 points (20-17=3) to up the damage. Since you get 1DC increase per 5pts extra STR above the STR Min, our boy fails to get the extra +1 pip to damage (DC7 vice DC6). Unless you are running a D&D style game were there are “magic sword shops” on every corner, the PC’s will not be able to ever see a weapon above 3D6K unless you the GM create it and make it available.

 

Stats. The default for most heroic games is to have Normal Characteristic Maxima (NCM) in place because the PCs and NPCs are not supers. That means 20 is the ultimate maximum for any human. Under “standard” game “rules” most PC’s stats will be in the range of 11-13 except for the defining ones. Some possible examples are Str or Dex for a warrior type, Dex or Int for rogue/magical types. These “defining” ones could be in the 14-20 range. But that doesn’t mean all the warrior types will be running around with 20 Str. The more likely numbers fall to 15-18. Just having extra points is not an excuse for a PC to suddenly jump to 20 Str. And not only does a stat above NCM indicate a non-natural occurrence (magic what have you), but the cost doubles. FH itself also indicates that if all these restrictions still do not meet your needs, make the break point for doubling cost 15. But a non-magical STR of 40???? That is not the standard game as described in FH at all. That is your world (which you can do) or ignoring basic rules (if you are trying to use Hero/FH as written). All the other Stats are controlled just the same.

 

A 5D6K weapon is impossible in a heroic FH (Hero/FH/TA as written) game unless you the GM either create it or allow a player to create it and then give approval. It sounds like the D&D game I saw where four 2nd Level Paladins were all running around with +5 Holy Avengers and +4 Adamantine Full Plate. Not the intended game concept there either. And after it was pointed out by one of the new players as being over the top. The DM restarted the game more in keeping with the intent and everyone had a much better time.

 

Routine Kills. This is also not the game. If I throw D&D goblins against a 15th level party they are almost automatic kills too, and generally cannot hope to inflict damage. If the creatures the party is fighting are too easy, well…..

 

 

5. To keep combat from dragging on forever' date=' eliminate the phase 12 automatic recovery. If someone wants to recover, they have to sacrifice an action.[/quote']

 

Also something we do not see eye to eye. In almost every game of FH I have run or played in, dragging combat out has never been the problem. Even if you do not use Wounding or Bleeding, Heroic (non-cinematic) combat is vicious and fast. If a PC is wearing heavier armor, he is slow. If not, even a hit from a light bow is really really bad. The PC’s only def is his armor since a “Normal” beings PD is usually not resistant. A normal (hunting) arrow of a bow will be 1D6K, a sharp/chisel/awl tipped war arrow for the same bow will be 1D6K AP! Since I interpret the armors as total protection, the 6 Def of chain mail includes any protection from under padding. That means a man wearing chain has a good chance of not being hurt by a standard arrow 1D6K, but if he runs into warriors and gets hit with a war arrow 1D6K AP, he will most likely get hurt.

 

Example: Uses Sir Tasian a knight in service to the Baron. He is wearing chain and while a powerful warrior, he is not a demi-god (standard Knight from MM&M). His Body is 10, his PD 4, STUN 26, CON 15.

 

Case 1: Sir Tasian surprises 6 poachers on his Lordships land. Being lightly armed, they are poachers not warriors, they flee but not before volleying a few arrows. Two strike home. They are light bows (1D6) and the first roll (on the dice 3 damage and 3 multiplier) 3 for damage and a 2 for StunX. and the second ( on the dice 5 damage and 6 multiplier) a 5 for damage and 5 for StunX. This gives us 3 BDY and 6 STN for the first and 5 BDY and 25 STN for the second. Chain has a Def of 6. The first arrow would shatter and fall doing nothing. The second arrow would also shatter, but while it would do no BDY, it has dealt 25 STN. The chain takes 6 of it and Sit Tasian’s own PD takes 4 more totaling 10. 15 Stun gets through leaving him with 11 and his high Con lets him ignore it. No problem, while it could get serious if he is not careful, they are not well armed and fleeing.

 

Case 2: Sir Tasian stumbles upon a raiding party of 6, four with bows, two with spears. All with waraxes. Realizing they must silence Sir Tasian quickly, those with bows volley while the rest charge. Two arrow strike. No hunting arrow here, but war arrows designed to carry through the traditional armor of their hated foes, chain. The first roll is 3 BDY 6 STN, the second is 5 BDY 25 STN. But the arrow was AP. The first arrow shatters on the 3 Def of the chain (6 halved for the AP is 3). The six stun is stopped also, 3 by the chain and 3 by his own PD. The second arrow is different. 3 BDY is stopped by the chain, but 2 points strike home leaving him with 8 Body. The chain also stops 3 stun and his own PD stops 2 for a total of 5 (remember AP) meaning 20 stun gets through leaving him with 6! Also he took 5 points over his CON in one blow. Reeling from the savage blow he is dazed (Stunned) and can barely shift his shield toward one of the charging warriors (remember 1/2 DCV). The odds of him surviving the attack of two warriors with spears AND being able to recover from stunning is dim.

 

 

6. You MUST enforce END use. It is the best way to keep everyone relevant in combat.

 

I don't follow the problem here. It falls under enforcing the rules. The only reason for the player to not use END is if you decided to mod the game and ignore it.

 

 

Anyway, some of my players chafe at my campaign rules, but seem to accept rules that are in black and white in a book, so some have become frustrated with this rules system.

 

Once again, not the system but the players and GM. Everyday I go by my FLGS I see some player ticked because the DM of his D&D game has ruled out the "really cool official supplement book" the player just bought. Probably because the DM doesn't have it and doesn't want to buy it that day so he can be sure his campaign won't be unbalanced. I see D&D games all the time where the DM has ruled core books only. I see D&D games all the time where a GM has altered the actual rules to fit his ideas for his world. And that is a straight jacket game system. In hero where you are SUPPOSED to tweek and alter the rules to suit, this doesn't make sense as a complaint.

 

Anyone else run something longer term and have any advice to add about making HERO system rules work in the FH genre?

 

For me, and just as my personal opinion they work fine. The only advice is to actually use the applicable rules, NCM, combat, end etc. And to put a halter on the munchkins and take back control of your game.

 

One last point, NOTHING in your game is WRONG. Hero is designed to be tweeked and modified. So how you run it is how you run it. My comments are solely based on how I understood your statements. FH does have a very good base with very good "standard rules". Between all the supplements 11 directly applicable, 2 Grimoire's, 3 Bestiaries, 2 antagonists (MM&M + NK&N), 3 settings (VA, TA and TM), Fantasy Battlegrounds not counting FH itself it is a well supported as many games on the market. But no, it is not a game designed to take the GMing out of the job. If you run FH you will need to make the adventures. But I ran my first mini-campaign using all stock (out of the books) creatures and magic with no problem at all.

 

If you wish to allow easily accessible, ultra powerful magic and godlike characteristics you can. No problem. But it will completely unbalance the exiting FH material. Just like Pulp Hero and Dark Champions material is completely overwhelmed if the PC's are 400+ point supers.

 

Not a problem with the system, but with the specific campaign. Sorry, not the correct term since it can't be a "problem" if it was intended.

 

To me, with the very little information I have, your game sounds more like high powered anime than high or low fantasy. Good for me because I like anime, but 40 STR warriors with 5D6K weapons are more to do with demon fighters saving worlds than mere knights and magi fighting goblins and trolls.

[Spence]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Honestly you should make your own to fit your desires as a GM, but here's what I have to give you some ideas.

 

Discover a small clue to the overall adventure .1 generic

Roll a 3 with a skill .1 only for that skill

Defeat a minor adversary by killing him .2 generic

Use a characteristic in a unique and/or creative way .2 only for that char

Use a power in a unique and/or creative way .2 only for that power

Use a skill in a unique and/or creative way .2 only for that skill

Discover a major clue to the overall adventure .25 generic

Come up with an idea the GM didn't anticipate .3 generic

Give the GM a useful plot hook .3 generic

Defeat a minor adversary by subduing him .4 generic

Defeat a major adversary by killing him .5 generic

Complete the adventure unsuccessfully .75 generic

Achieve a character goal 1 generic

Complete the adventure successfully 1 generic

Defeat a major adversary by subduing him 1 generic

 

repped with misspelled word WOOT

[Shaddakim]

Re: FH Gripes

 

After running FH for about 1 1/2 years, here are my observations:

 

1. It's alot of work--alot more work than any other fantasy genre game. It has to do with having to make some important, complex rules decisions the consequences of which cannot be obvious until you are running the game, namely--magic system, caps on stats, caps on skill levels, standard values for weapons damage, armor value, use of shields (DCV bonus or extra armor with activation), balancing armor/defenses with attack damage, balancing magic damage with regular killing damage. There are several others.

 

Yep, that's true - FH does take more work than many other game systems. On the other hand, there are short cuts you can take. For example, when I run mook-level NPCs (NPCs that are a minimal threat to the PCs), I found I really only need a small subset of stats: DEX, BODY, SPD, STUN, skill levels, weapon damage, and DEF. I assume they have the STR to use their weapon and a CON of 13 or 18 for stunning purposes.

 

Now putting together a named-level NPC that is a spell caster is a pain if you do not use the Grimoire or have a huge set of spells pre-built. I use the Grimoire for basic spells and select from a growing pool of designed spells that I have accumulated over the various editions of the game system (Hewlett's Horrible Haddock was the toughest conversion into the current rules - it drops 1000s of three-day-old fish on the target causing nausea, disorientation, and being trapped under the mass of fish, try and find that in a published book). My game has been running for 10 years, so I have a pile of spells, but it has only been recently that I've started codifying the magic system.

 

2. You can use whatever source materials you want, and if you are familair with the HERO system, conversion on the fly or with minimal prep time is a breeze. This has to do with knowing what DCV you party can hit, and knowing how much armor they are capable of penetrating. Point blank, you cannot present them with opponents they cant hit, or cannot damage.

 

This is a strength of the system, but as others have pointed out, you CAN present players with something they can't hit as long as there is some other way around the problem. Make 'em think.

 

3. The objective books--like the monster and enemy books--are perhaps the least valuable in FH, because there is no official approach to anything in FH--from armor to weapons to magic or anything else. A troll in a FH book could be too powerful in your game, or not powerful enough as written. You might be better off buying some other company's book, because they are more detailed in description,motivations, etc.

 

I disagree. I've been able to make very good use of the monster and enemy books, mostly as-is, for the length of my campaign. I'd like to find a way to establish something like a CR from d20, but that is a tricky thing for HERO and total point costs don't necessarily work out to equivalences. Matching opponents to the PCs is indeed an art form.

 

3. The HERO produced FH settings are not compelling to me or my players, and the campaign books for each are not comprehensive and do not share the production values or comprehensiveness of say, Wizard's Forgotten Realms for even 15 years ago. I run in a setting of my own, which I never got around to fully fleshing out.

 

Yeah, they don't float my boat either. Then again, I haven't played in a published gameworld with HERO in over 10 years, so I am very used to using what I want from anything I find interesting and chucking the rest.

 

4. IF you are running a game with typical gamers, you'll have at least one or two in the group that are constantly going to be maxing skill level, speed, strength, and will look to buy custom, larger and larger weapons so that they can Sweep with a 5d6 k weapon--and their high CSL's means they'll be capable for 3 routine kills per phase (with tough consquences for END, but END is cheap). I have combatted this primarily by making each increment of 5 points in each characteristic double in price past 15. In other words, buying STR from 10 to 15 costs 10 points. To buy it from 15 to 20 costs 20 pts. 20 to 25 costs 40. Players will buy CHAR that they really want, but you will not soon have 40STR guys running around all over the place. It will keep DEX and Sppeds within a reasonable range. This screws with the "Package Deals" however and you'll have to either change point costs for them or allow normal prices to apply for CHAR bought in a package deal.

 

One of the last original characters in my campaign has been causing this problem. Anything that is a challenge to him KILLS everyone else. He does 4.5d6 (I use an older version of the Greataxe that does 2d6+1) and he has maxed out everything he can to reach the maximum damage and ability to hit to the exclusion of everything else. I had a talk with him when he asked for access to dwarven matrial arts (his character is a dwarf) or to make a legendary greataxe that does more damage. I told him for either of those, he needed his PC to re-integrate himself into dwarven culture. This meant buying cultural skills beyond his every-dwarf skills. Additionally, he needed to develop actual metalworking skills and find someone to train him. I also told him he could buy no new CSL (his OCV ranged 13-16, depending upon circumstances), but could start upgrading his grab bag of 2 and 3 point CSL to more general skills, if he found an in game place to train. This has stopped the arms race and lead to a more rounded (and interesting) character and led to more role-playing. When we finish the current story arc, his character will go into retirement as the campaign shuffles a bit. His character is now a legendary dwarven hero and is being called back to his home kingdom to fight for his people in the Mountain Wars and will make cameos as an NPC when the new batch of PCs are in an area he is active in, just like the other three original PCs who are still alive occasionally make cameos (sorry about that drowning Carl). If you want to do this, find out early what the PLAYER sees as the end-goal is for the PC.

 

5. To keep combat from dragging on forever, eliminate the phase 12 automatic recovery. If someone wants to recover, they have to sacrifice an action.

 

Another thing you could do is rule that once mook-level NPCs go below 0 STUN, they're out for the rest of the fight. Named-level NPCs should have a chance to get back up, especially if their minions distract the PCs.

 

6. You MUST enforce END use. It is the best way to keep everyone relevant in combat.

 

Oh, heck yes. And don't let them have magic items that reduce the END lost from being encumbered. That will keep the tanks in line (50kg of armor tires them out pretty quick if they aren't careful). I made this mistake and paid for it until the item got de-magiced by player action.

 

Anyway, some of my players chafe at my campaign rules, but seem to accept rules that are in black and white in a book, so some have become frustrated with this rules system.

 

As mentioned by others, type up your house rules and give everyone a copy up front. I run with very few house rules, but have been fairly clear with my players as to what kind of campign I'm running and so the need has not been great. Your mileage may vary.

 

Anyone else run something longer term and have any advice to add about making HERO system rules work in the FH genre?

 

Another thing I suggest always using for FH are hit locations. A 5d6 to the hand or foot is not as life threatening. Plus, this way players start allocating CSLs to making called location shots on single targets rather than mowing down multiple targets. Also, any power with a stop sign should not be allowed in the hands of a PC and never allow PC spellcasters to have a power framework.

 

My campaign started with the PCs being 75/50 points. The last original PCs are retiring with point totals over 200 points after playing once a month for 10 years. New characters come in at a lower point total to avoid "points inflation" and needing hard resets when the entire party is 300+ points.

 

Hope this helps.

[atlascott]

Re: FH Gripes

 

...but do you really want to be dragged into an arms race? (Note: there is no perfectly balanced system that I am aware of.) Maybe I am misunderstanding you' date=' but it sounds like you are frustrated with your powergamers and not so much with the system.[/quote']

 

You are pretty observant. I always played 'character concept' and then applied the rules to it. But with years of rules-exploiting other systems, my players are of the most common variety, I think. They want their characters to advance, become more effective, or as effective as possible for points spent. And really, I cannot blame them. After all, isn't it more fun to run a rules-optimized character than an inefficiently built character with fewer options? The average gamer will always take a STR 20 fighter over a STR 13. Being exceptional is part of the fun. Advancing your character is alot of the fun. I think this is the way the vast majority of gamers feel, even if they are not as obsessed with it as a couple of my players are.

 

With as many possilbe options, combat maneuvers, Perks and Powers, package deals, etc., Skills, and so on, you have the most flexible system out there. I love the HERO system. But in a particular genre, the consequences of allowing many of the options do not become obvious until its too late. Presumably, this is why genre specific rules systems are play tested--for balance. There is none of that in FH. Players hate it when you renege on allowing a maneuver, rule, power, or perk. And I guess I cannot blame them too much.

[atlascott]

Re: FH Gripes

 

The main perpetrator doesn't really have a 40 STR--dramatic license, don't you know! 28, I think? It cost him alot of points. 2d6 killing weapon, doubled for strength, with "Mighty Strike" or whatever 'perq' in the FH book--alakazam, you have a 5d6 killing attack, using non-esoteric, standard rules. Nothing too munchkin about taking rules as written. Of course, I do not let him use double strength or large weapons in small corridors. And I forbade him spending 100 gold to commission the creation of a telephone pole-sized sword. So then, he just adds as many CSL as possible so that is can hit almost anyone, even if they are Dodging. Then he discovered Sweep...but was not thrilled with the END consequences.

 

If you take 8 PDr as plate armor/max armor as written, this guy slices thru anything

 

I really agree with the fellow who said that--if you have a player or players like this, they are going to find a loophole or weakness in any system.

 

I think there are alot of awesome suggestions on this list. Thanks all who have responded.

 

Our most combat effective character is a Halfling with a high DEX and SPD and magic armor. Even if you CAN hit him, the magic armor helps.

 

Our best conception is a Snow Elf Drow Slayer. Combat effective but with a small magic pool. The player is frustrated because he is not great guns as magic goes, but is also less effective in combat. Can't have it all, tho, and his versatility is superb.

[atlascott]

Re: FH Gripes

 

"That means 20 is the ultimate maximum for any human."

 

Nope, Normal Maxima means costs doubler beyond the Maximum, not that no one can HAVE a higher stat.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: FH Gripes

 

The main perpetrator doesn't really have a 40 STR--dramatic license, don't you know! 28, I think? It cost him alot of points. 2d6 killing weapon, doubled for strength, with "Mighty Strike" or whatever 'perq' in the FH book--alakazam, you have a 5d6 killing attack, using non-esoteric, standard rules. Nothing too munchkin about taking rules as written. Of course, I do not let him use double strength or large weapons in small corridors. And I forbade him spending 100 gold to commission the creation of a telephone pole-sized sword. So then, he just adds as many CSL as possible so that is can hit almost anyone, even if they are Dodging. Then he discovered Sweep...but was not thrilled with the END consequences.

 

If you take 8 PDr as plate armor/max armor as written, this guy slices thru anything

 

I really agree with the fellow who said that--if you have a player or players like this, they are going to find a loophole or weakness in any system.

 

I think there are alot of awesome suggestions on this list. Thanks all who have responded.

 

Our most combat effective character is a Halfling with a high DEX and SPD and magic armor. Even if you CAN hit him, the magic armor helps.

 

Our best conception is a Snow Elf Drow Slayer. Combat effective but with a small magic pool. The player is frustrated because he is not great guns as magic goes, but is also less effective in combat. Can't have it all, tho, and his versatility is superb.

 

For your fighter there... a 2d6K (6DC) greataxe has a STR min of 18, IIRC, so a 28 STR gets you +2 DC. The extra +1d6K (3DC) from the Deadly Blow talent is considered "base" damage, so you're doing 11DC Killing (3 1/2d6), with a potential max of 18DC killing (6D6). Maneuvers add half the normal DC bonus to Killing Attacks, so an Offensive Strike only gets you another +2 DC.

I'm not seeing how you're hitting 5d6 Killing so easy, unless you're not using STR mins. Still, it can be done, and I've allowed it in my games without breaking them totally. I generally am VERY cautious about the Deadly Blow Talent, and usually prefer that it be somewhat limited...RSR is REAL common here.

In any case... He's spent enough points to play Beowulf... so let him. Let him smite mere mortal opponents with a single hammer blow. The start throwing immortal ones at him, so to speak. Escalating power levels work both ways. If he wants to play that kind of character, take off the kid gloves. He'll love it or die trying, and then will probably have a lot of fun going down.

 

When my players hit this power level, I sent them after an real "straight out of the norse myths" Jotun who weighed in around 1200 points not including his Base & Followers.

 

 

And as a note to your Snow Elf player... Buffs are cheap and overly effective for small power pools

[Spence]

Re: FH Gripes

 

"That means 20 is the ultimate maximum for any human."

 

Nope, Normal Maxima means costs doubler beyond the Maximum, not that no one can HAVE a higher stat.

 

Incorrect. NCM is defined as "an upper limit on the Characteristics of normal humans." and 20 is the maximum Str for a human per the charts. The system has a mechanism to allow higher stat progression if the GM allows it.

 

Key words IF THE GM ALLOWS IT.

 

For instance, if the characters father was non-human or maybe of supernatural origin. Hercules has greater than 20 because dad was a God. and so on.

 

A human in a heroic game with a Str higher than 20 has exceeded the possible. The only way to do so is to use magic, technological assists, bio-augmentation or the GM choosing to ignore human maximums. All legal in the system. But don't blame the system because you chose to ignore the guidlines.

[Spence]

Re: FH Gripes

 

The main perpetrator doesn't really have a 40 STR--dramatic license, don't you know! 28, I think? It cost him alot of points. 2d6 killing weapon, doubled for strength, with "Mighty Strike" or whatever 'perq' in the FH book--alakazam, you have a 5d6 killing attack, using non-esoteric, standard rules. Nothing too munchkin about taking rules as written. Of course, I do not let him use double strength or large weapons in small corridors. And I forbade him spending 100 gold to commission the creation of a telephone pole-sized sword. So then, he just adds as many CSL as possible so that is can hit almost anyone, even if they are Dodging. Then he discovered Sweep...but was not thrilled with the END consequences.

 

 

Incorrect again. A weapon can never cause more than 2x its base damage.

 

Refer Main Rules page 405. "A character's extra maneuver damage, extra STR, damage bonus from movement, and CSL's used to increase damage, put together, cannot more than double the base Damage done by an attack or weapon. For example, a knife (HKA 1/2D6, or base damage of 2 DC's) cannot do more than Killing Damage 1D6+1 (4 DC's), regardless of how the character adds damage to it."

 

A sword of 2D6 (6 DC's) can never do more than 4D6 (12DC's).

 

Now you are free to ignore it, after all it is Hero. But don't call the system broken when in reality you didn't read the book. The guidelines are all there if you choose to read and use them.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Incorrect again. A weapon can never cause more than 2x its base damage.

 

Refer Main Rules page 405. "A character's extra maneuver damage, extra STR, damage bonus from movement, and CSL's used to increase damage, put together, cannot more than double the base Damage done by an attack or weapon. For example, a knife (HKA 1/2D6, or base damage of 2 DC's) cannot do more than Killing Damage 1D6+1 (4 DC's), regardless of how the character adds damage to it."

 

A sword of 2D6 (6 DC's) can never do more than 4D6 (12DC's).

 

Now you are free to ignore it, after all it is Hero. But don't call the system broken when in reality you didn't read the book. The guidelines are all there if you choose to read and use them.

Incorrect, but thats an illustration of why Deadly Blow should be carefully watched. It's foremost among the effects that add to Base damage rather than Total damage. Martial Arts DC's add to base damage as well, but I think there may be an exception for weapons.

It's great for making a Jhereg-style assassin who can reliably kill someone with a 1/2d6 stiletto or shuriken, but when you drop it on a combat monster they become heap big slayers, lickittey split.

[Markdoc]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Yeah, what he said.

 

Personally, as soon as I read the rules for Deadly blow, it went directly on my list of "Never to be used" new rules (and it is a new rule - there's no other power that adds dice to an unrelated power).

 

If you want the assassin who can kill with a single dagger-strike (and I have a PC like that in my current FH game, though he'd hate to be called an assassin) then let him buy HKA (1d6, no STR min, OIF - dagger of opportunity, real weapon). It's a whole 8 points for a 2d6 HKA with his STR - but it doesn't open up a whole mess of abuse potential the way deadly blow does.

 

cheers, Mark

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Never used Deadly Blow, but I do not feel it is game breaking.

 

Guess I'll have to wait until after I GM someone with it.

 

QM

 

P.S.: GM Authorization Required at all times.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Yeah, what he said.

 

Personally, as soon as I read the rules for Deadly blow, it went directly on my list of "Never to be used" new rules (and it is a new rule - there's no other power that adds dice to an unrelated power).

 

If you want the assassin who can kill with a single dagger-strike (and I have a PC like that in my current FH game, though he'd hate to be called an assassin) then let him buy HKA (1d6, no STR min, OIF - dagger of opportunity, real weapon). It's a whole 8 points for a 2d6 HKA with his STR - but it doesn't open up a whole mess of abuse potential the way deadly blow does.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Well, I can see the logic...it's not really an "unrelated" power... just a "free" one (The HKA or RKA the weapon has). It's mechanically sound, in the same way that a HA added to a weapon built with HA would also increase base damage (because it's an increase on the base power, not the added STR damage), but it's still a major stop sign in my book, as it can totally blow any benchmarks apart.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Well' date=' I can see the logic...it's not really an "unrelated" power... just a "free" one (The HKA or RKA the weapon has). It's mechanically sound, in the same way that a HA added to a weapon built with HA would also increase base damage (because it's an increase on the base power, not the added STR damage), but it's still a major stop sign in my book, as it can totally blow any benchmarks apart.[/quote']

 

It breaches the rule that you can't boost free equipment. Want the skill to add 1d6 KA to a Greatsword? Buy deadly Blow at 1d6 KA cost. Want a magic Greatsword of Horrific Wounding that starts at 3d6 KA instead of 2d6 KA? Oh, you must buy the full 3d6 KA, you can't just add the 1d6 excess over a normal greatsword. Why are they different?

[Markdoc]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Never used Deadly Blow, but I do not feel it is game breaking.

 

Guess I'll have to wait until after I GM someone with it.

 

QM

 

P.S.: GM Authorization Required at all times.

 

We have used it, and it is (as the original poster points out).

 

In a game where one character has deadly blow, it takes almost no time until all of them have it. Because I wouldn't allow it in my games I was reluctant to take it for my own characters - but in the end, it essentially becomes the default because there is no other way to boost damage so high, so cheaply. Your choices are : take Deadly blow, play a non-fighter type, or be prepared to take a supporting role.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Well' date=' I can see the logic...it's not really an "unrelated" power... just a "free" one (The HKA or RKA the weapon has). It's mechanically sound, in the same way that a HA added to a weapon built with HA would also increase base damage (because it's an increase on the base power, not the added STR damage), but it's still a major stop sign in my book, as it can totally blow any benchmarks apart.[/quote']

 

Not really. With all other powers, two of the same power gives you ... two of the same power. If you have HKA as a power and you acquire someone else's focus that also has HKA as a power, even if you can use it (universal focus) you can't simply graft it onto your own power. Two healers with 2d6 healing have 2 times 2d6 healing, not 4d6. Two DEF 8 forcewalls are two Def 8 forcewalls, not a DEF 16 one. Two 2d6, Def 2 entangles are two 2d6, Def 2 entangles, not a 4d6 DEF 4 one. Two 2d6 Flashes are two 2d6 Flashes, not a 4d6 one, even if launched as an MPA.

 

Are you sensing a theme here?

 

Deadly Blow is the only thing in the rules which lets you buy dice in one power and add it to another power (something which is explicitly otherwise forbidden). That alone would be reason to examine it carefully.

 

It's important, because once you go over someone's DEF, all your extra attack is essentially "NND does body" - so that extra dice (or two - because you get to add STR and martial maneuvers in there) has a far greater effect than two smaller attacks - that's reason enough to ban it outright.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Martial Arts DC's add to base damage as well' date=' but I think there may be an exception for weapons.[/quote']

 

There is - martial DCs add to damage at 2 per 1. Thus to get the equivalent of Deadly Blow with martial arts DCs (a full d6) you'd need 6 of them, for a total of 24 points (for a limited class of weapon).

 

Think about the numbers to get the same effect by any other mechanism and you begin to see how grotesquely unbalanced Deadly Blow is.

 

Then think about someone buying two dice of it....

 

cheers, Mark

[Hyper-Man]

Re: FH Gripes

 

There is - martial DCs add to damage at 2 per 1. Thus to get the equivalent of Deadly Blow with martial arts DCs (a full d6) you'd need 6 of them, for a total of 24 points (for a limited class of weapon).

 

Think about the numbers to get the same effect by any other mechanism and you begin to see how grotesquely unbalanced Deadly Blow is.

 

Then think about someone buying two dice of it....

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

I agree completely.

 

It's one of the reasons I would rather use Levels vs. Hit Locations to represent SKILL at doing more damage with attacks.

[CourtFool]

I Disagree

 

The start throwing immortal ones at him' date=' so to speak. Escalating power levels work both ways. If he wants to play that kind of character, take off the kid gloves. He'll love it or die trying, and then will probably have a lot of fun going down.[/quote']

 

...and come back with an even more munchkinned character.

[CourtFool]

Re: FH Gripes

 

After all' date=' isn't it more fun to run a rules-optimized character than an inefficiently built character with fewer options?[/quote']

 

Agreed. I have never gamed with someone who wanted to play a lame duck. I have heard they exist, but I have never seen one. I certainly have no problem with letting the characters be awesome. I do have a problem with letting one character be more awesome than all the rest.

 

Are you having problems with one or two characters outshining the rest or are you having difficulty challenging the group at its current level? Either problem can be resolved assuming your players are reasonable. You mentioned that your players chafe at many of your house rules. If they are playing to win, then of course they are going to get miffed every time you change the rules on them. How can you 'win' when the rules keep changing? If you convince them that it is not all about 'winning' but telling an entertaining story and win their trust that you are not 'out to get them' they will start to see where you are coming from. To make the story interesting, it is your job to present challenges. This does not mean you are 'out to get them'. Without challenge, the story becomes exceedingly boring. You could even try a little experiment by taking this to the extreme in one session. Allow them to succeed effortlessly at any and everything they attempt. Do not even let them roll. Simply tell them they succeed. At first they will think it is awesome. See how long before they start to complain.

 

Now a bit of a disclaimer. Please understand that the advice I am offering comes from a narratavist. This may not apply so neatly to your or your players perception of role playing games. I am sure there are a few gamist on the boards who will tell you I am full of feces. I am simply offering what I think for what it is worth.