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FH Gripes


atlascott

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Incorrect. NCM is defined as "an upper limit on the Characteristics of normal humans." and 20 is the maximum Str for a human per the charts. The system has a mechanism to allow higher stat progression if the GM allows it.

 

Key words IF THE GM ALLOWS IT.

 

For instance, if the characters father was non-human or maybe of supernatural origin. Hercules has greater than 20 because dad was a God. and so on.

 

A human in a heroic game with a Str higher than 20 has exceeded the possible. The only way to do so is to use magic, technological assists, bio-augmentation or the GM choosing to ignore human maximums. All legal in the system. But don't blame the system because you chose to ignore the guidlines.

 

First, every rule has the implied caveat, "If the GM allows it"

 

Second, straight from the book "Normal Characteristic Maxima: An upper limit on the Characteristics of normal humans. Beyond this limit they must pay double to increase their Characteristics."

 

Finally, and this is not JUST directed at you, but I am loving how there are alot of posts here that simply conclude that it is my lack of skills/knowledge/common sense/judgment/etc. that is the cause of [insert problem here]. I've been doing this (running games--usually long-term, successful and fun campaigns) for the last 20 years. I'm open to new ideas and advice, but it just kinda comes off as mean when the innuendo is that I am a dummy. I mean, it may be true, but be nice, fer gosh sakes!:)

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Incorrect again. A weapon can never cause more than 2x its base damage.

 

Refer Main Rules page 405. "A character's extra maneuver damage, extra STR, damage bonus from movement, and CSL's used to increase damage, put together, cannot more than double the base Damage done by an attack or weapon. For example, a knife (HKA 1/2D6, or base damage of 2 DC's) cannot do more than Killing Damage 1D6+1 (4 DC's), regardless of how the character adds damage to it."

 

A sword of 2D6 (6 DC's) can never do more than 4D6 (12DC's).

 

Now you are free to ignore it, after all it is Hero. But don't call the system broken when in reality you didn't read the book. The guidelines are all there if you choose to read and use them.

 

Incorrect, but thats an illustration of why Deadly Blow should be carefully watched. It's foremost among the effects that add to Base damage rather than Total damage. Martial Arts DC's add to base damage as well, but I think there may be an exception for weapons.

It's great for making a Jhereg-style assassin who can reliably kill someone with a 1/2d6 stiletto or shuriken, but when you drop it on a combat monster they become heap big slayers, lickittey split.

 

Incorrect. The rules applying to "normal" weapons used by "normal" PC's are very specific. Hence the quote from the rules.

 

Deadly Blow is a talent and like applying a power to a weapon makes it "magic". Buying a talent makes the PC "more than natural". And that pesky quote "As always, the GM should review and approve them before allowing PC's to buy them" rears its head again. Boy, that GM sure keeps having to make decisions.

 

A weapon may never get above x2 DC's. But if I the GM make it a MAGIC sword it can do as much as I want by purchasing POWERS. The rule applied until I the GM said the sword is no longer normal.

 

With Deadly Blow, the talent cannot just be purchased because it is "cool", anymore than a character can "just" buy danger sense, Eidetic Memory, Divine Favor or Berserk Fury.

 

There has to be a reason other than min/maxing. Unless of course min/maxing is how you have fun.

 

Yes, it is possible to take a 2D6 weapon to 5D6 by making the warrior or weapon "unnatural". But that is not because the system is "broken", it is because you, the GM have chosen to use extras and options that allow either the weapon or the PC to "no longer be normal". Why bother with Deadly Blow at all? It is limited. Why not just buy 15 pts of killing attack? Just using Str Min 6-14 (-1/2) Real Weapon (-1/4) and OAF (-1) will drop it to 5pts per die. Heck for the cost of DB I can get 2D6K that isn't limited at all.

 

In D&D as a DM I can give a Holy Avenger to a PC's 1st level character, in fact I can give everyone in the party artifacts. It will certainly destroy any reasonable use of 1st level adventures and campaigns. But it isn't because the system is broken. It is because I "chose" to ignore the guidelines and do my own thing.

 

But my question is. Why are you (not really you AmadanNaBriona, the rhetorical you) playing FH at all. You obviously don't want to. You want to play a wuxia style supers with swords game along the line of an anime like Inuyasha. Nothing wrong with that, it is a fun type of game but it doesn't have anything to do with a "regular" fantasy style game where the PC's are supposed to be "normal" humans etc. It certainly isn't the default build that is FH's norm.

 

If I was playing in your (again a fictional you ;) ) game I would never waste 10 points for something as useless as +1D6K. Heck, I'd spend the 10 points on Flight and use a bow. I know my mother was a pixie so I can fly. Cool isn't it. :eek: I'd just swoop around and shot arrows and drop rocks. If my dad was a rock troll I can buy up my skin as hardened armor like Colossus in X-Men. 40 STR fits that. A super strong flying pixie troll. Coooool.......

 

sorry...being a bit of a smart aleck there. But with a point. Playing a game with a super strong flying pixie troll is actually doable in a manner that stays within the rules with Hero or Fantasy Hero. Fantasy Hero isn't broken. You (and yet again the fictional you) just gave your players a blank check and have refused to establish any control, you are doing the equivalent of a D&D game where you can use anything in any book you own. I prefer the games where the DM states on day one which books may be used and then does not allow anything else for that campaign.

 

In the end, saying a system is broken because it allows you to do what ever you want as it was designed to is just wrong. It drew a line and said that a FH "standard" game should remain at this level of power/effect, and you, the GM made the choice to alter that that standard. Which is great. Hero is supposed to be used to do cool stuff.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Agreed...I do have a problem with letting one character be more awesome than all the rest...Are you having problems with one or two characters outshining the rest or are you having difficulty challenging the group at its current level?

 

The former is the larger problem as I see it. And I DID catch him mis-applying the STR min to his weapon of choice, and I did modify it down from 5dk to 4d6. I even caught the snow elf not tracking how many 'points' worth of spells he was casting in a 'day'. But the main issue is one guy who HAS to figure out a way to be a killing machine if a party that is otherwise more or less balanced. I means, he typically does twice the damage on an average blow than any other fighter-type in the group--something wrong there. But then again, there are disadvantages to wearing heavy armor...not having tough mental defenses...etc.

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Re: FH Gripes--NEW IDEA

 

How well do you guys think it would float if I mandated character redesign with all house rules in place now? The advantage for PC's is that they now have a better idea of how the game runs, and I have now hammered out alot of what I want the game to be about and how I want things to work (and I do not think Deadly Bow is going to be allowed at its current price point).

 

I am going to eliminate Package Deals and just create lists of typical powers/abilities/disadvantages for the various races/professions and let them customize as they see fit.

 

One area that still irks me is--how do you guys handle Skill Levels, esp CSL's? WOW can they be powerful. DO you guys use a hard cap? SOmething tied to atrribute? Escalating costs?

 

What do you think?

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Deadly Blow is a part of the Paladin Package Deal. Completely reasonable to allow a character to take a talent which appears in a package deal for the type of character they want to play. I neve dealt with it before, and so when it became part of the game, I found it to be tremendously imbalancing, and, as others have commiserated, it is hard to put the cat back in the bag without player dissatisfaction.

And to be fair, I think allowing a talent which appears in a Package Deal list is a far cry from allowing a flying pixie fairy with a Holy Avenger.

Please try to be more charitable in your asessments.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Also, the rules in FH for Deadly Blow SPECIFICALLY state that it adds the the BASE DAMAGE of the weapon, as AmadanNaBriona wrote. Actually, I couldn't believe it. FH p. 106 "The damage added by Deadly Blow counts as base damage. That means it not only increases the damage a character's weapon does, it also improves his ability to increase the weapon's damage further via STR, COmbat Skill Levels, Combat Maneuvers, and the like."

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Re: FH Gripes

 

First, every rule has the implied caveat, "If the GM allows it"

 

Second, straight from the book "Normal Characteristic Maxima: An upper limit on the Characteristics of normal humans. Beyond this limit they must pay double to increase their Characteristics."

 

Finally, and this is not JUST directed at you, but I am loving how there are alot of posts here that simply conclude that it is my lack of skills/knowledge/common sense/judgment/etc. that is the cause of [insert problem here]. I've been doing this (running games--usually long-term, successful and fun campaigns) for the last 20 years. I'm open to new ideas and advice, but it just kinda comes off as mean when the innuendo is that I am a dummy. I mean, it may be true, but be nice, fer gosh sakes!:)

 

Oh, I am not trying to say you do or did any thing wrong. And I am not trying to say that you don't know what you are wanting to do in your game. But I am saying that the defaults for a "normal" are pretty well defined, both by the rules, FH and the myriad of other supplements by example.

 

I am countering your very specific comments 3a, 4 and 5. You state that these mean that FH is essentially "broken" because the rules are not in "black and White". Well they are.

 

For 3a there are many books for FH with many many standard write ups. How can the FH troll be too powerful or too weak. It is the standard FH troll. It is it's standard. If your conception of a Troll is bigger, that is your conception, not theirs. Neither is wrong. In one RPG a Fairy is a 6 inch tall tinkerbell, in another it is a 6 foot tall elf like being. Which fairy is the "correct" one?:ugly: In a "standard" FH game where 90% of the warriors will have a STR between 12-16, a troll with a STR of 35 is a combat monster.

 

For 4, you have chosen to not use the "limiters" that keep FH at the "standard" FH power setting. NCM is simply a cost bump rather than a limit. PC's are allowed to purchase Talents and Power applications as if they were simple skills. This has completely eliminated the "standard" FH supplements value for you. Again, this is not anything "bad" or "wrong". But it isn't their fault you decided to follow you own direction.

 

And for 5, if you retain the built in limiters (NCM, weapon damage lims, etc), then FH combat isn't long, it is short and vicious.

 

All the rules and guidelines are written in black and white and very very visible. If you choose to not use the recommended guidelines that is great. I deviate all the time. But if things don't work out it is my problem, not the system I altered.

 

I think a lot of the comments you are perceiving as criticism of you as a GM, are more a response to the way you made your statements. (of course with my vast talent > in writing I shouldn't say much :( )

 

For example, the whole thing about the high strength and a 5D6 normal sword as an example of how FH has no controls or balance. When the controls are pointed out, the response is that you just don't use NCM (control #1) and we aren't actually discussing "normal" at all. We are discussing a warrior with supernatural abilities (Talent Deadly Blow).

 

If you remove the brakes from your car, don't blame the manufacturer and call the car defective when you crash.

 

Once again, I really have no opinion on whether you game is good or bad, and cannot have any clue about you as a GM. But every single example you gave consisted of FH is broken because of X, and when the solution Y is pointed out, you say that Y is simply a suggestion that you don't use and therefore it is broken.

 

I'm just saying. :nonp:

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Deadly Blow is a part of the Paladin Package Deal. Completely reasonable to allow a character to take a talent which appears in a package deal for the type of character they want to play. I neve dealt with it before, and so when it became part of the game, I found it to be tremendously imbalancing, and, as others have commiserated, it is hard to put the cat back in the bag without player dissatisfaction.

And to be fair, I think allowing a talent which appears in a Package Deal list is a far cry from allowing a flying pixie fairy with a Holy Avenger.

Please try to be more charitable in your asessments.

 

Never mind. You don't want a discussion, you just want to bash the system and pick and choose bits and pieces of points of posts that are convenient.

 

Very well. FH Hero is completely broken and all copies should be burned in order to save mankind. You have won. :hail: :hail: :hail:

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Deadly Blow is a part of the Paladin Package Deal. Completely reasonable to allow a character to take a talent which appears in a package deal for the type of character they want to play. I neve dealt with it before, and so when it became part of the game, I found it to be tremendously imbalancing, and, as others have commiserated, it is hard to put the cat back in the bag without player dissatisfaction.

And to be fair, I think allowing a talent which appears in a Package Deal list is a far cry from allowing a flying pixie fairy with a Holy Avenger.

Please try to be more charitable in your asessments.

 

Well, if your combat wombat is playing a paladin there are a few ways to rein him back a bit. Right off the bat, I'd be a bit stricter on what constitutes an "evil" creature (Assuming that the Deadly Blow is in fact the paladin's Smite Evil power). In fact, if I were to start up a game right now, I'd look hard at both Deadly Blow and Combat Luck before deciding to use them, and if I were to decide to do so, I'd probably keep pretty strict limits on both, and also make it clear that they represent character schticks, and would use them both as liberally with major NPC's as they appear among the PC's.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Oh, I am not trying to say you do or did any thing wrong. And I am not trying to say that you don't know what you are wanting to do in your game. But I am saying that the defaults for a "normal" are pretty well defined, both by the rules, FH and the myriad of other supplements by example.

 

I am countering your very specific comments 3a, 4 and 5. You state that these mean that FH is essentially "broken" because the rules are not in "black and White". Well they are.

 

For 3a there are many books for FH with many many standard write ups. How can the FH troll be too powerful or too weak. It is the standard FH troll. It is it's standard. If your conception of a Troll is bigger, that is your conception, not theirs. Neither is wrong. In one RPG a Fairy is a 6 inch tall tinkerbell, in another it is a 6 foot tall elf like being. Which fairy is the "correct" one?:ugly: In a "standard" FH game where 90% of the warriors will have a STR between 12-16, a troll with a STR of 35 is a combat monster.

 

For 4, you have chosen to not use the "limiters" that keep FH at the "standard" FH power setting. NCM is simply a cost bump rather than a limit. PC's are allowed to purchase Talents and Power applications as if they were simple skills. This has completely eliminated the "standard" FH supplements value for you. Again, this is not anything "bad" or "wrong". But it isn't their fault you decided to follow you own direction.

 

And for 5, if you retain the built in limiters (NCM, weapon damage lims, etc), then FH combat isn't long, it is short and vicious.

 

All the rules and guidelines are written in black and white and very very visible. If you choose to not use the recommended guidelines that is great. I deviate all the time. But if things don't work out it is my problem, not the system I altered.

 

I think a lot of the comments you are perceiving as criticism of you as a GM, are more a response to the way you made your statements. (of course with my vast talent > in writing I shouldn't say much :( )

 

For example, the whole thing about the high strength and a 5D6 normal sword as an example of how FH has no controls or balance. When the controls are pointed out, the response is that you just don't use NCM (control #1) and we aren't actually discussing "normal" at all. We are discussing a warrior with supernatural abilities (Talent Deadly Blow).

 

If you remove the brakes from your car, don't blame the manufacturer and call the car defective when you crash.

 

Once again, I really have no opinion on whether you game is good or bad, and cannot have any clue about you as a GM. But every single example you gave consisted of FH is broken because of X, and when the solution Y is pointed out, you say that Y is simply a suggestion that you don't use and therefore it is broken.

 

I'm just saying. :nonp:

 

I would primarily repeat what I said about there being options, but no real approved approach sanctioned as 'official' in many aspects of FH, and mention that while the rules are, indeed, printed in black and white, theur effect in game is not--a FH game requires alot more decisions pre-campaign than many other games and the consequences of those decisions are not as obvious as I believe you are making them out to be.

 

I dont think I ever said FH was broken--just that the pre-campaign decisions without obvious consequences pre-play are a mixed blessing at best.

 

I understand what you are saying. I just don't think you understand my points.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Never mind. You don't want a discussion, you just want to bash the system and pick and choose bits and pieces of points of posts that are convenient.

 

Very well. FH Hero is completely broken and all copies should be burned in order to save mankind. You have won. :hail: :hail: :hail:

 

I am not bashing the system, I am requesting advice and feedback, and I applaud your efforts at misrepresenting.

 

I am not interested in 'winning' or 'bashing the system'--just making conversation and hoping to benefit from the experience of others.

 

I apologize if I gave you the impression that I am trying to beat you up.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Deadly blow is a deal breaker

 

NCM is essential (no need to adjust it)

 

I have added HCM, this is the max strength you can have and still be human (30 in my games BTW). You still pay double from 20 to get to 30

 

Str MIN

 

How common are weapon shops in your world? In my game most towns do not have one, only cities, and even then they will normaly be in the employ of the lord

 

Watch how quick Magic Users find other means if you require Side effect (based on effect of spell)

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Re: FH Gripes

 

So, if I can summarize my understanding of the specific problem character, he is a Paladin wielding a Greatsword and using the Deadly Blow talent applicable to Paladins which adds damage againts Evil creatures only. Said Paladin has also purchased a sufficient STR and/or combat levels to permit him to add a further 2d6 to his 2d6, or 3d6, KA. Others have noted that's a superhuman level of STR. Some suggestions:

 

- first off, I do agree with the many posters who suggest that part of the GM's job in a hero game is to balance the game. I would find it difficult to credit a PC with a 30+ STR who "just happens" to be that strong. I would also look at the combination of such stellar strength and the deadly blow package as something that's got pretty obvious potential to substantially enhance damage. I don't think it's asking too much of the GM to look at the typical damage a character will dish out during the initial cjaracter design and review phase of the game. As the OP notes, with great flexibility comes great risk of imbalance. The price of freedom (to custom design characters) is eternal vigilance (to vet out overpowered or abusive characters).

 

With that out of the way, let's assume the 40 STR Paladin makes perfect sense in context, and is the finest example of a character reasoned from effect that has ever been designed in the history of role playing games. What do we do with him? Well,

 

- he has no shield since he's using a two handed weapon. He's also doubtless bundled up in Plate Mail. Great against combatants who will face him on his own level, in physical HTH. Not so great against, say:

- a spellcaster with a Shield from Physical Injury spell and a Drain/mental/flash attack (an evil priest, perhaps?)

- combatants who fight from range (go near the walking cuisinart? fat chance of that!)

- swift fighters with a SPD advantage who blow extra phases on Block or Dodge to avoid being struck, and have a shield to benefit from that extra DCV

 

- Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Given his abilities

- If you can have a 40 STR, why can't opponents have a 6 SPD, a 27 DEX or an extra 20 PD? They're beyond the human norm to the same extent you are.

- Opponents can have Deadly Blow too. Maybe theirs only works against Servants of Good (like Paladins)

 

- challenges that don't involve killing the enemy. Maybe he has to deal with:

- children possessed by a demon (you can't just go around killing children and still be Good)

- bringing a prisoner back alive to face trial

- saving the evil opponent's hostage, not just killing the Evil One after the hostage is dead

 

- That Deadly Blow only works on Evil opponents. How Evil need they be? Evil enough that they are uncommon enough to justify the limitation on the Deadly Blow. It seems reasonable that any number of Neutral foes (animals, brigands, etc.) might be encountered as well.

 

- The most powerful combatant tends to get targeted by the most powerful opposition, or the most numerous.

- One evil soldier? Sliced. 10 evil soldiers? more of a problem there...

- This guy's cutting through the ranks. The Wizard needs to hit him with a Blinding Flash, Mental Entangle, what have you.

- Perhaps he needs an AntiPaladin nemesis. Just take his own character sheet and exchange the words "good" and "evil" wherever you see them. Obviously, the AntiPaladin can't be unbalanced - that would mean the Paladin is unbalanced!

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Incorrect. NCM is defined as "an upper limit on the Characteristics of normal humans." and 20 is the maximum Str for a human per the charts. The system has a mechanism to allow higher stat progression if the GM allows it.

 

It says in a published Hero Games rulebook (either 5ER or Ultimate Brick) that 30 is the height of human potential. It's not ignoring any rules or guidelines to allow someone to have 28 STR.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

It says in a published Hero Games rulebook (either 5ER or Ultimate Brick) that 30 is the height of human potential. It's not ignoring any rules or guidelines to allow someone to have 28 STR.

 

I disagree. The "Characteristics Benchmarks Table" on FRED p. 41 suggests that 20 STR is at the upper limit for an Olympic weightlifter, so (to pull an example out of the air) one would not need to assign Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime a STR greater than 20. The Legendary (21-30) range includes animals like horses and gorillas--so if there is a valid reason why a player character should be able to punch out horses like Mongo in "Blazing Saddles," you can allow that (at 2 CP per point of STR beyond 20, if using NCM).

 

No, the rules as written don't forbid to let PCs buy STR beyond 20. Why should they? Steve Long isn't paying HERO Cops to stand over GMs with a stick. But there are guidelines, and PCs with 40 STR in a Heroic-level campaign don't respect those guidelines. I see an issue here where the system is getting blamed for a GM's failure to predict or prevent abuse of the system. Even for a novice GM, there are enough guidelines in place, established through more than two decades of play, that such failure should not have to happen.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

I disagree. The "Characteristics Benchmarks Table" on FRED p. 41 suggests that 20 STR is at the upper limit for an Olympic weightlifter, so (to pull an example out of the air) one would not need to assign Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime a STR greater than 20. The Legendary (21-30) range includes animals like horses and gorillas--so if there is a valid reason why a player character should be able to punch out horses like Mongo in "Blazing Saddles," you can allow that (at 2 CP per point of STR beyond 20, if using NCM).

 

No, the rules as written don't forbid to let PCs buy STR beyond 20. Why should they? Steve Long isn't paying HERO Cops to stand over GMs with a stick. But there are guidelines, and PCs with 40 STR in a Heroic-level campaign don't respect those guidelines. I see an issue here where the system is getting blamed for a GM's failure to predict or prevent abuse of the system. Even for a novice GM, there are enough guidelines in place, established through more than two decades of play, that such failure should not have to happen.

 

Can you be any more UNclear? :confused:

 

First you disagree with but then later agree with the previous poster. Either 20 is a hard limit or it isn't. (I'm in the '30 is the suggested hard limit for games using NCM' camp btw)

 

Make up you mind! :rolleyes:

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Re: FH Gripes

 

I am not bashing the system, I am requesting advice and feedback, and I applaud your efforts at misrepresenting.

 

I am not interested in 'winning' or 'bashing the system'--just making conversation and hoping to benefit from the experience of others.

 

I apologize if I gave you the impression that I am trying to beat you up.

 

No, I am the one who should apologize, though I was not misrepresenting anything but rather responding to your ever changing position wher you start with "typical" and end up with "Paladins". But I was letting a crappy week at work bleed over. And as usual was not being clear. And things sounded clear when I wrote them, but looking back it probably wasn't. For that I apaologize.

 

In the way I look at it Hero must be looked at in a very compartmentalized manner. For it discusses "normal" compartment 1, then "heroic" "compartment 2 and Super heroic compartment 3. Compartment 1 can function well all on its own. You can open compartment 2 which adds many things. But you are no longer in "normal".

 

The example of Deadly Blow being in the Paladin Package. It isn't. The package deal says that he gets 20 points of Paladin Powers. Now there is a page of sample powers that a Paladin might have. One of the powers is Demonslayer where a God has granted him special powers to slay demons. The game mechanic used to model this divine power was Deadly Blow limited to vs demons. That doesn't mean every PC in the game is suddenly at liberty to slap 4 pts down and start wacking demons. And it definitely doesn't mean everyone can start slapping down 10 points for an extra die of KA. The same applies to Evil's Bane, Lay On Hands, and Righteous Courage. They all are examples of how to built Divinely Granted Powers. Not a permission for PC to go hog wild.

 

In my opinion, and it is just mine, Hero is not a game where a person flips through the book, finds something cool, pays the points, and calls it spending experience. In the games I run (and the better one I have played in) the PC with XP to spend has to explain in character concept where the ability is coming from. If it makes sense in the particular game they then point it out and the GM either approves the build, adjusts the build for balance or says try again. Deadly Blow is a Talent and is unnatural. If the PC is a Paladin there are a couple of ways he can explain it and easily stay in character conception. But a regular joe warrior type will be hard pressed to come up with a good reason to suddenly have magical powers.

 

But in the end, simply because one of the many packages uses a power or talent to simulate a specific ability, doesn't mean the PC's just run hog wild. In the same manner, just because a prestige class exists in some supplement doesn't mean all the PC's in a D&D game can automatically start using them.

 

When I first used Hero (Champions) I always ran into problems because when creating a character I followed the method I learned in D&D. Step One, open the book and read the available classes and races. Step Two, after choosing a target class with the abilities I want roll for stats until I get a combo I like. Etc. I would flip through the book looking for cool powers. Then it clicked. Now Step One is take a blank sheet of paper and write out the character concept. After that is done, Step Two determine the best way to create the concept using the game mechanics. Until I have a complete character concept the rulebook stays on the shelf.

 

When players spend XP my favorite question is Why? Why can you do it? Why did it get better? Etc. For Deadly Blow, the question is not only why can your character do it, but what is the reason for it. For a Paladin it is Divine. For the other characters is it magic? Chi? Bad breath? What? It is 10 points. And in Hero 10pts can do a lot of things all of which may be technically legal but generally inappropriate to a genre.

 

5th is very specific, FH is more broad and gives you information to assist in running everything from Low fantasy to Epic Fantasy. It is a general book. Examples that are not appropriate to the specific genre you are running should be skipped. If you want more definition get a setting book. TA, VA or TM with TM being the most specific in detail IIRC.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

So' date=' if I can summarize my understanding of the specific problem character, he is a Paladin wielding a Greatsword and using the Deadly Blow talent applicable to Paladins which adds damage againts Evil creatures only. [/quote']

 

Actually no.

 

Paladin was never even mentioned until post #56.

 

The start was that 5D6 killing was easy to reach in FH and there were not guideline to prevent, for lack of a better term an arms escalation which unbalances the Package Deals. It was pointed out that in a "normal" game the biggest sword was 2D6 and the rules specifically state the most a weapon can be improved is x2 DC making 5D6K unattainable in a "normal" game.

 

Then was added "with "Mighty Strike" or whatever 'perq' in the FH book" which you and several others pointed to Deadly Blow, the talent. Then when it was pointed out that using a talent is just like make a magic power. It "changes" things from "normal" to "unnatural" but must have a reason and should be GM controlled. You can't just buy DB out of the blue for no character reason. Then it was mentioned as being in the Paladin Package. It isn't, but two possible divine power samples use DB simulate the powers Demonslaying and Evil's Bane are. Key words "divine powers"

 

But if you read the original paragraph in post 1. para 4 it say that in a typical game everyone will be running around with 40 STR and have 5D6K weapons.

 

In a typical FH game using standard guidlines they will generally not exceed 20 STR with out magic or supernatural aid, and they will not generally "upgrade" weapons past 2D6K, the biggest sword. To go higher once again requires magic or supernatural aid.

 

Magic and supernatural aid are specifically controlled by the GM in a game. If you allow 5D6K swords, using deadly blow and so on in your game. It is not FH or Hero's fault or FH or Hero not being "clear". It is solely the GM who said "OK".

 

But you did write an excellent post.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

The former is the larger problem as I see it. And I DID catch him mis-applying the STR min to his weapon of choice' date=' and I did modify it down from 5dk to 4d6. I even caught the snow elf not tracking how many 'points' worth of spells he was casting in a 'day'. But the main issue is one guy who HAS to figure out a way to be a killing machine if a party that is otherwise more or less balanced. I means, he typically does twice the damage on an average blow than any other fighter-type in the group--something wrong there. But then again, there are disadvantages to wearing heavy armor...not having tough mental defenses...etc.[/quote']

 

 

I certainly hope you did not get the impression from my posts that I am blaming you for any problems you are experiencing in your game. I also have a very difficult time vetting characters. In fact, I recently posted in Hero System Discussion about how to identify potential problem builds.

 

I suggest the direct approach. Talk to the player(s). Explain to Walking Killing Machine that he could be ruining the game for the other players. Does he honestly think they enjoy playing second fiddle to him? He may offer to help 'optimize' their characters with them. While that is very kind of him (sarcasm), that is not what is best for the game. This is a group effort and everyone should contribute equally. He does not need a 5d6 or even a 4d6 killing attack to be the greatest fighter in the land. He can still play the awesome character that he fantasizes about without raping the system until it bleeds from its orifices. He also needs to respect the other player's desires to play awesome characters without them having to rape the system too.

 

I do not think it is your fault that the players slipped a munchkin build past you. I do think it is partly your responsibility to correct it. It is also the responsibility of the players to work with you. If they are not willing to work with you, I would question if you really want to play with people who have such an obvious difference in gaming style. I know some lovely computer RPGs that will allow Walking Killing Machine to tweak his character to his delight.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Can you be any more UNclear? :confused:

 

First you disagree with but then later agree with the previous poster. Either 20 is a hard limit or it isn't. (I'm in the '30 is the suggested hard limit for games using NCM' camp btw)

 

Make up you mind! :rolleyes:

 

I never said anything was a "hard limit." I merely repeated what the table suggested was a reasonable limit for certain real-world individuals, as a comparative basis. It might help you to read what is written rather than what you've already decided was meant. Saves me thinking I wasted perfectly good fingertips on you, y'know?

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Also' date=' the rules in FH for Deadly Blow SPECIFICALLY state that it adds the the BASE DAMAGE of the weapon, as AmadanNaBriona wrote. Actually, I couldn't believe it. FH p. 106 "The damage added by Deadly Blow counts as base damage. That means it not only increases the damage a character's weapon does, it also improves his ability to increase the weapon's damage further via STR, COmbat Skill Levels, Combat Maneuvers, and the like."[/quote']

 

Yeah. Generally I like Steve Long's work, but FH seems to me like it was a bit rushed (maybe to meet a deadline) because it's full of small errors and rules like this one which were just clearly never thought out at all (a lot of the feat-inspired talents are kind of whacked actually).

 

It's sad, because, there are, as pointed out, multiple ways to deal with the character who wants to be effective in combat, but not carry a huge weapon - or even the huge weapon guy who wants to amp his damage. Deadly weapon is not only grossly unbalanced, but it's also unnecessary.

 

Buuut.... because "it's in the rules" players want to use it, which is understandable enough. That's why I got to work with the red pen as soon as I saw it and declared it out of bounds before the players started getting any ideas. :D

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Deadly Blow should have a stop sign on it.

 

Deadly Blow is a great thing for a light, rapid attacker. If your main weapon is a knife or light sword, you might never be able to do damage to certain opponents. However, with Deadly Blow you can actually use that same knife to penetrate a dragon or troll or whatever.

 

The problem comes when you have a guy wielding 4 yards of hardened steel AND Deadly Blow. He is already doing massive amounts of damage and Deadly Blow puts him way over the top.

 

Again, it's important to review all characters and make sure that they are in line with the campaign format.

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