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Re: FH Gripes

 

Looking at the locations covered by various types of armor, at least in the material I've read, I have a hard time believing that "the vitals" includes the heart, lungs, or upper abdomen.

 

Especially since there are other, discrete hit locations that cover the chest and abdomen...

 

Right. That's why the rules explicitly state that if it's a woman being hit and the location roll is 13, it's an automatic miss. Or does that mean to re-roll locations? Hm. Let me look.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says: Or maybe it only says that in rulebooks where someone took a pen and wrote something like that in there.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Not quite. I've posted this before, but it bears repeating:

Susan and I met at a renaissance faire in 1989. I was on stage doing a show (a 25-minute play with singing, fencing and stuntwork) and she was helping a friend with a merchant booth that backed the stage. During the production, I received a stage kick that went awry. I was supposed to take the flat of the actor's foot against my stomach muscles. Due to some misplaced blocking, I took the point of his boot about six inches lower. This was about five minutes into the show. I had been kicked soundly in the groin and was barely able to speak, but I had all kinds of stuntwork and fencing to do. I couldn't even breathe. Somehow I managed to finish the show, ending by diving through a window to get off-stage. I crawled around back and finally was able to give voice to my discomfort.

Unknown to me, I was being watched. The woman who would one day be my wife heard some terrible keening noise, like a wounded animal (me). Not knowing if she could put it out of its misery, she advanced toward the source of the sound until she saw me. She was going to speak when suddenly, the man writhing on the ground in front of her leapt up and ran around the stage. She was intensely curious why someone would behave this way (I had suddenly remembered I had a curtain call). She was unable to find out more until she saw me at the cast party and asked what in the world had happened. We like to say that when we met, it was pain at first sight!

 

Keith "And yes, I perpetrated song in the show" Curtis

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Right. That's why the rules explicitly state that if it's a woman being hit and the location roll is 13' date=' it's an automatic miss. Or does that mean to re-roll locations? Hm. Let me look. [/quote']

 

Yes, of course, that must be exactly what I meant. :rolleyes:

 

Comparing what each piece of armor covers to each location leaves only one logical conclusion. The idea that there's a special hit location that bypasses armor all over the body to hit "vulnerable spots" and yet is itself only covered by those pieces of armor that happen to cover the groin is...silly. (I'm looking at the chart under weapons and armor in the BBB, as my 5th book is currently on loan to a friend).

 

I'm not sure I should discuss the details of that further on a public forum that includes some younger readers. Let it suffice to say that there's more to the area of "the vitals" than the parts you're refering to...

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Re: FH Gripes

 

Yes, of course, that must be exactly what I meant. :rolleyes:

 

Comparing what each piece of armor covers to each location leaves only one logical conclusion. The idea that there's a special hit location that bypasses armor all over the body to hit "vulnerable spots" and yet is itself only covered by those pieces of armor that happen to cover the groin is...silly. ...

 

 

I have to admit, you're right. It's silly.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

So is the palindromedary.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

How about this solution - If your roll hits DCV 14 or less then you hit the vitals on a random location roll as long as you do at least 2 BODY after armor. So if you hit the arm you hit the major artery, hit the chest it is a shot to the heart, etc. If someone wants to target the vitals they pick a location and then apply an additional -3.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

I know that in first edition Fantasy Hero, it was quite explicit - there was an example given of targetting the "Vitals" when a hunter meant to spear a boar in the heart.

 

Because of the location assigned it on the hit location chart (unlucky 13) it has come to be assumed that "Vitals" refers to that specific anatomic location that would logically lie between 12 and 14. Obviously, even the way armor was designed and written up follows this assumption. I consider this both silly and unfortunate.

 

Perhaps "Vitals" has come to mean what Mr. Bowdler referred to as one's "peculiar members" but that was NOT the original intent when the hit location chart with associated to-hit penalties and damage adjustments was designed.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Writing up a hit location chart for a palindromedary.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

So' date=' with this in mind, does Fantasy Hero, or the Beastiary, include a hit location chart for a eunuch?[/quote']

 

 

Or, for that matter, a woman?

 

The confusion is perhaps inevitable because, as I said, the location of "Vitals" on the chart can be read to imply that it's between location 12 and location 14. But I wish they hadn't reinforced the confusion in the writeups of armor.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Writing up a hit location chart for a palindromedary

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Re: FH Gripes

 

So' date=' with this in mind, does Fantasy Hero, or the Beastiary, include a hit location chart for a eunuch?[/quote']

 

No, for the same reason that it doesn't include one for women.

 

There are plenty of vulnerable parts in that area besides the ones that make otherwise grown-up people giggle nervously when you talk about them. :rolleyes:

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Vitals

 

Location 13 is called "vitals" because whoever first wrote the Hit Location chart back in first edition was too embarrassed to write "groin" or "crotch". The legacy of his wimpiness remains, but it's understandable. Back then there was still a good deal of hysteria over a certain new wierd type of game being a form of Satan worship, leading young people to sin and corruption. A more direct reference to the area covered by a pair of briefs might have been seen as too controversial.

 

Some people like to maintain their euphemisms and say that it only refers to "vital" spots located at various points on the body, even if covered by other hit locations or specifically covered by armor pieces that cover the groin. This is acceptible I suppose, as much of the source material for many genres don't like to admit that the upstanding, heroic characters even have any part of their bodies below the waist and above the legs.

 

And further notice that a Head Shot does not include location 13. This is not because there is nothing vital in the area of the head.

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Re: Vitals

 

 

Some people like to maintain their euphemisms and say that it only refers to "vital" spots located at various points on the body, even if covered by other hit locations or specifically covered by armor pieces that cover the groin. This is acceptible I suppose, as much of the source material for many genres don't like to admit that the upstanding, heroic characters even have any part of their bodies below the waist and above the legs.

 

And further notice that a Head Shot does not include location 13. This is not because there is nothing vital in the area of the head.

 

Head shots are even worse than vitals. As for armour, I note that a "short vest" covers area 13. This doesn't seem consistent with the idea that area 13 is the crotch, rather than the heart and kidneys. Also of course, there's nothing particularly vital in the crotch to explain why you take 2x Body from shots there.

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Re: Vitals

 

Also of course' date=' there's nothing particularly vital in the crotch to explain why you take 2x Body from shots there.[/quote']

 

Well, if you're talking about the pelvic region in general (covered by a pair of briefs as mentioned earlier in the thread), you've got several major blood vessels, the bladder, and chunks of the digestive system that can cause sepsis if damaged (though that last is also true of the "stomach" hit location). Someone who's taken anatomy may be able to think of more than I just listed.

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Re: FH Gripes

 

I've always considered Vitals as including vital areas. John Wayne Bobbit has shown that there are places down there that won't cause you to bleed to death if they're chopped off.

 

On the other hand, besides the stuff Netzilla mentions, the kidneys and liver are a couple of other major vital spots that while they aren't in the groin area per se, spearing one will cause death quicker than the Stomach area would seem to imply. We've also played Vitals as a heart hit, when other shots fired that Phase all hit the chest...makes the character look more competent when all his rounds hit within a few inches of each other and it's all SFX.

 

In my opinion, the fact that Vitals armor covers the groin is a necessary limitation on the system, a sacrifice of the strictest realism for greater playability. That doesn't mean that GMs and players shouldn't use a little license in describing the outcome of an attack.

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Re: Vitals

 

Location 13 is called "vitals" because whoever first wrote the Hit Location chart back in first edition was too embarrassed to write "groin" or "crotch". .

 

Then perhaps you can explain why, in the example given way back in First Edition Fantasy Hero of a hunter targetting a boar's heart, it was described as a called shot to the "Vitals?" Or do you know something I don't about a boar's anatomy and it actually carries its heart between its rear legs?

 

And why, as someone else pointed out, a short chainmail vest is written up as covering location 13?

 

I think it's pretty clear that whoever wrote the HIt Location chart back in first edition didn't write "groin" or "crotch" not because he was too embarrassed to, but because that was not what location 13 was originally intended to represent.

 

Granted you can justify double BOD and huge STUN as a hit to the femoral arteries, but I doubt hitting the femoral arteries hurts worse than, oh, I don't know, the HEART! Not to mention kidneys and several other organs that, especially if specifically targetted, constitute "location 13."

 

I'm going to have to drag that original Fantasy Hero out of storage aren't I?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Making up a hit location chart for a palindromedary

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Re: FH Gripes

 

The fact is, the whole system is an abstraction that can't account for everything without creating an overly complex hit location chart. I'm perfectly comfortable with counting location 13 as potentially any vital organ or major blood vessel located in the torso. Sure, there's a handful that aren't logically covered by a vest, but you've got unusually high damage rolls to account for that. Fitz's "centerline" definition also works well enough that I wouldn't quibble if I were playing in his game.

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Re: Vitals

 

Then perhaps you can explain why' date=' in the example given way back in First Edition Fantasy Hero of a hunter targetting a boar's heart, it was described as a called shot to the "Vitals?" Or do you know something I don't about a boar's anatomy and it actually carries its heart between its rear legs?[/quote']

 

I found the part you're talking about. As far as I can recall, that is the only thing published by any incarnation of Hero Games that refers to the heart as being the "vitals".

 

In all three editions of Fantasy Hero, the following armor pieces cover location 13:

 

Hauberk

Corselet

Byrnie (redirects to Chainmail)

Cuirass

Vest

Skirtplate (wikipedia has no article). Interestingly, the majority of Google results on the word 'skirtplate' refer to Fantasy Hero-related websites. Google image searches on the word 'skirtplate' or the phrase "skirt plate" in quotes show nothing at all related to armor.

 

Breastplate covers locations 9-11 but not 12 or 13, and in fact is the only torso piece that doesn't cover either of those locations.

 

A Google image search on the word 'cuirass' shows about 1 in 3 to either have a skirt extension that would cover the groin, or a groin covering integral to the piece, and the remainder seem to end at about the waist.

 

Amadan na Briona, I think we're skirting your area of expertise, if you're paying attention. Pun absolutely intended.

 

-----

 

Okay, after writing all of the above, I pulled out FREd. P. 277 says:

 

"Vitals" is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin' date=' the heart, a large artery, or many other areas. The GM should choose whatever effect is most appropriate for the attack and the situation.[/quote']

 

So I guess that settles it.

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Re: Vitals

 

I found the part you're talking about. As far as I can recall, that is the only thing published by any incarnation of Hero Games that refers to the heart as being the "vitals".

 

In all three editions of Fantasy Hero, the following armor pieces cover location 13:

 

Hauberk

Corselet

Byrnie (redirects to Chainmail)

Cuirass

Vest

Skirtplate (wikipedia has no article). Interestingly, the majority of Google results on the word 'skirtplate' refer to Fantasy Hero-related websites. Google image searches on the word 'skirtplate' or the phrase "skirt plate" in quotes show nothing at all related to armor.

 

Breastplate covers locations 9-11 but not 12 or 13, and in fact is the only torso piece that doesn't cover either of those locations.

 

A Google image search on the word 'cuirass' shows about 1 in 3 to either have a skirt extension that would cover the groin, or a groin covering integral to the piece, and the remainder seem to end at about the waist.

 

Amadan na Briona, I think we're skirting your area of expertise, if you're paying attention. Pun absolutely intended.

 

-----

 

Okay, after writing all of the above, I pulled out FREd. P. 277 says:

 

 

 

So I guess that settles it.

 

I have no fracking idea what a "Skirtplate" is. Never seen one, didn't pay that much attention that specfic portion of the Sectional Armor chart and always assumed they meant "Tassets", which wouldn't protect locations 12 or 13, so I'm at a loss. The "Skirt" entry works for them, however, which is probably a more accurate name for ridgid armor.

My assumption is that the "Skirtplate" is probably supposed to be the lowerbody extension of an early 1500's Curiass, when they started modeling the lower torso/upper thigh protection after the Bases that were all the fashion rage at the time. Look at some of Henry the VIII's suits of armor to see what I'm talking about... A base looks kinda like an unpleated kilt.

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