FH Gripes

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: FH Gripes

 

 

It's inconsistant with the rest of the table - with what comes with it at the same time. It's nonsensical in that most of the sectional armor pieces that cover the groin include area 13, while the ones that don't, don't (with the Vest being admittedly a possible exception [or error?]).

 

Do you understand that the upper part of the torso is enclosed in a ribcage and covered by thicker layers of muscle (and/or fat) than the groin?

 

Depends on circumstances. Is the foe wearing armor on his chest? For the mechanically desired result, other locations (such as the head) might do as well or better. I don't confuse the SFX with the mechanics, but if I'm trying to create some degree of verisimilitude in my game, I'm going to let the word "location" mean "location." Suppose the foe wants to do the same thing to you: Do you say, "Wait! He can't pierce my heart! I'm wearing armor over my chest!" Can I say, "Well he wasn't aiming at your chest, he was aiming at your Area 13, which in this case happens to be in your chest." That's why it doesn't make sense.

A comment on this bit. A lot of traditional fighting knife styles were designed to be long enough to be shoved up under the rib cage to get at the heart. A normal 16th C style short breastplate wouldn't do much to stop this.

 

Also, I coulda swore that the classic "Heroic Girdle" was usually defined as guarding location 13

[CourtFool]

My beef with all Hit Location charts

 

Oh yea' date=' how about those wonderful d100 hit locations? Just how far do we have to go before we stop worrying about this and have some fun.[/quote']

 

Few things extract me from immersion quicker than dispatching my opponent by loping of his left pinkie finger.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Vitals

 

Unless your genitals are as wide as your hips' date=' you should understand this.[/quote']

 

Ah. That would explain my confusion, then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill.

(I need a wheelbarrow to go for a walk).

[Korvar]

Re: FH Gripes

 

The Hit Location mechanism that sticks in my mind was Millennium's End - you got various silhouettes of people in various poses, and transparent overlays with numbers on in a spiral pattern.

 

You put the overlay corresponding with the range you're shooting from over the pose that represents your foe, roll yer dice, and the amount you hit by (for the Point Blank overlay, it's the amount you miss by) determines where precisely you hit. And then it's to the tables to work out what that bullet does to that body part...

[Lucius]

Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

I’ll admit to a certain curiosity, so I’ll ask questions.

 

Hey' date=' if the [i']special effect[/i] of my armor is that it covers the parts of my body containing my heart, lungs, etc, then I better not hear anything about some special location roll mechanically doing more damage because it's "bypassing my armor and hitting my heart".

 

If someone wants to bypass armor, there are Talents and Powers that allow that.

 

But a silly random location roll, located closer to the middle of the bell curve than not, that does extra damage because it hits some undefined part of the body that's otherwise protected by the armor that the character is wearing? Sure, whatever.

 

Who said anything about bypassing armor? As far as I know, the topic under discussion was the meaning of the word “vitals” as used on the hit location chart.

 

 

Let me ask you this: Say I’m in your game and I have a good shot at a foe and I say “I want to take him out in one shot. I want to line up my sword, blade parallel to the ribs so I miss them, and thrust quick and clean right to the heart!”

 

Do you give me a -8 OCV (or -4 if the poor guy is just standing/lying there) and a X2 BOD and X4 STUN if I hit his heart?

 

Or do you say “That’s in his chest” and give me a -3 OCV (or -2 if the poor guy is etc) and X3 STUN and no adjustment to BODy rolled?

 

 

Depends on circumstances. Is the foe wearing armor on his chest?

For the mechanically desired result, other locations (such as the head) might do as well or better. I don't confuse the SFX with the mechanics, but if I'm trying to create some degree of verisimilitude in my game, I'm going to let the word "location" mean "location." Suppose the foe wants to do the same thing to you: Do you say, "Wait! He can't pierce my heart! I'm wearing armor over my chest!" Can I say, "Well he wasn't aiming at your chest, he was aiming at your Area 13, which in this case happens to be in your chest." That's why it doesn't make sense.

 

It doesn’t make sense because you’re making it not make sense. I note you also did not directly answer the question. I also find myself wondering if you and Kristopher are under some kind of misapprehension about what I am saying.

 

I am not saying that either a random hit to location 13, nor a called shot to location 13, will somehow automatically bypass worn armor. If someone thinks I’m saying that, I am baffled as to why anyone would draw that conclusion. As I understand them the rules don’t say that, nor do I think that was the intention of either Mr. Long or of the original designers of the hit location chart.

 

Nor do I think that player characters have special privileges in terms of the hit location chart. As a matter of genre, or in the interests of making a fun game for everyone, it may be that in a given game the non-player characters will refrain from making called shots to the head or vitals, but in general I assume Hoyle’s Law applies: “Whatever the game, whatever the rules, the same rules apply to both sides!” Was there some reason you thought I would say otherwise?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Beating a dead palindromedary

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

I also find myself wondering if you and Kristopher are under some kind of misapprehension about what I am saying.

And I wonder if you are under some kind of misapprehension about what Kristopher and I are saying.

 

I am not saying that either a random hit to location 13, nor a called shot to location 13, will somehow automatically bypass worn armor.

I get that. What you appear to be saying is that if someone is hit in Area 13, and they're wearing solid armor over their chest (Area 10-11), that hit might be to an organ in the chest. Yes, mechanically, you aren't "bypassing armor;" you're hitting an unarmored location. But the game description of that location somehow appears to be under armor. From the character's point of view, it makes no sense: "I'm wearing solid armor over my upper torso, yet he somehow stabbed me in the heart, and the armor didn't help at all! *gasp* *wheeze* Ow. Oooh. Ow. Oy, ow. Dead."

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

Who said anything about bypassing armor? As far as I know' date=' the topic under discussion was the meaning of the word “vitals” as used on the hit location chart. [/quote']

 

Armor is part of the topic under discussion.

 

It doesn’t make sense because you’re making it not make sense. I note you also did not directly answer the question. I also find myself wondering if you and Kristopher are under some kind of misapprehension about what I am saying.

 

I am not saying that either a random hit to location 13, nor a called shot to location 13, will somehow automatically bypass worn armor. If someone thinks I’m saying that, I am baffled as to why anyone would draw that conclusion. As I understand them the rules don’t say that, nor do I think that was the intention of either Mr. Long or of the original designers of the hit location chart.

 

There's one armor piece in Fantasy Hero that covers locations 10-11 but not 13. It's not outside the realm of possibility that someone could come up with others. Problem is, if Vitals refers to the heart, lungs, and other things inside the chest cavity, it makes sense that DEF that covers the Chest (10-11) would cover those. This is a discrepancy that will need to be resolved at some point.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

There's one armor piece in Fantasy Hero that covers locations 10-11 but not 13. It's not outside the realm of possibility that someone could come up with others. Problem is' date=' if Vitals refers to the heart, lungs, and other things inside the chest cavity, it makes sense that DEF that covers the Chest (10-11) would cover those. This is a discrepancy that will need to be resolved at some point.[/quote']

 

Perhaps it refers to "the heart, lungs, and other things inside the chest cavity as well as other vulnerable locations which are located elsewhere". Are there any precedents within the system for armor which covers location 13, but FAILS to cover locations 10-11? With such a precedent, it would certainly be clear that the vitals must exclude the heart and lungs, as one could not provide full coverage for the vitals without covering the chest.

 

The fact that some armor covers locations 10-11, but not 13, proves it is possible to strike a vital area which is not in those locations. It does not provide that there are no vital areas in those locations.

[ghost-angel]

Re: FH Gripes

 

If you're going to go with Vitals being "heart, lungs, arteries" there are plenty outside the chest cavity to worry about. As well as other vital bits:

 

arteries in arms and legs, any exposed spinal areas are always vital to continued motor skills of some nature.

 

People got all kinds of squishy bits all over they don't want poked with sharp dangerous things.

 

(Personally, I've always assumed Vitals meant the area from the genitals to the belt line.)

[Kristopher]

Re: The misguided attempt to over-seperate mechanics from SFX

 

Perhaps it refers to "the heart, lungs, and other things inside the chest cavity as well as other vulnerable locations which are located elsewhere". Are there any precedents within the system for armor which covers location 13, but FAILS to cover locations 10-11? With such a precedent, it would certainly be clear that the vitals must exclude the heart and lungs, as one could not provide full coverage for the vitals without covering the chest.

 

The fact that some armor covers locations 10-11, but not 13, proves it is possible to strike a vital area which is not in those locations. It does not provide that there are no vital areas in those locations.

 

Right, but that's still oddball in that there are already locations for the arms, and then there's supposedly this other location that can also maybe hit stuff in the arms if the GM decides so?

 

And what if the character is wearing, say, a heavy leather jacket, that provides 1 or 2 armor, including to the arms, but doesn't cover our mysterious Location 13?

 

(Or did 5th just do away entirely with locational defenses and decide that Activation would be the way to go?)

[Kristopher]

Re: The misguided attempt to over-seperate mechanics from SFX

 

I get that. What you appear to be saying is that if someone is hit in Area 13' date=' and they're wearing solid armor over their chest (Area 10-11), that hit might be to an organ in the chest. Yes, mechanically, you aren't "bypassing armor;" you're hitting an unarmored location. But the game description of that location somehow appears to be under armor. From the character's point of view, it makes no sense: "I'm wearing solid armor over my upper torso, yet he somehow stabbed me in the heart, and the armor didn't help at all! *gasp* *wheeze* Ow. Oooh. Ow. Oy, ow. Dead."[/quote']

 

What he said.

[Netzilla]

Re: The misguided attempt to over-seperate mechanics from SFX

 

Right' date=' but that's still oddball in that there are already locations for the arms, and then there's supposedly this [i']other[/i] location that can also maybe hit stuff in the arms if the GM decides so?

 

It could be a hit to a part of the arm considered vital; such as the subclavian artery (major blood vessel running along the inside of the arm and up behind the clavicle). A regular roll of Arm on the hit locations chart covers the non-vital parts of the arm.

 

And what if the character is wearing, say, a heavy leather jacket, that provides 1 or 2 armor, including to the arms, but doesn't cover our mysterious Location 13?

 

That would be a hit to some other vital area on the body. This would include vital bits in the groin. I don't think anyone is saying that location 13 doesn't include the groin. I believe they're saying that it's the groin and other stuff as well. So, it could mean the bladder (groin), femoral arteries (groin and legs), kidneys & liver (stomach), heart & lungs (chest), the subclavian artery (arms), spinal hits (neck to groin) and so forth. Thus, if someone is wearing a breast plate and takes a Vitals hit, it could be a hit to any of those vitals not covered by the breast plate (basically everything listed above except the heart and lungs).

 

Also, a lot of discussion has centered around the fact that the breastplate does not cover location 13 and so location 13 must be in the lower torso. The stomach is already specifically called out, thus the only option left is the pelvic (or groin) area. However, I would also point out that an armored skirt only protects location 14 (thighs) and not location 13. It seems odd to me that a skirt would cover the thighs but not the groin.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

Perhaps it refers to "the heart' date=' lungs, and other things inside the chest cavity as well as other vulnerable locations which are located elsewhere". Are there any precedents within the system for armor which covers location 13, but FAILS to cover locations 10-11? With such a precedent, it would certainly be clear that the vitals must exclude the heart and lungs, as one could not provide full coverage for the vitals without covering the chest.[/quote']

 

One: "Skirtplate" which covers locations 12-13. Google says, and Amadan na Briona (at least one of our resident armor experts) agrees, that there is no such animal in real life. But it exists in all three editions of Fantasy Hero.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

One: "Skirtplate" which covers locations 12-13. Google says' date=' and Amadan na Briona (at least one of our resident armor experts) agrees, that there is no such animal in real life. But it exists in all three editions of [i']Fantasy Hero[/i].

 

Well I did point out Faulds fitting the bill, sort of, excepting that they don't cover the groin really. They're more of a liver, spine, and kidneys kinda vitals armor.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The misguided attempt to over-seperate mechanics from SFX

 

It could be a hit to a part of the arm considered vital; such as the subclavian artery (major blood vessel running along the inside of the arm and up behind the clavicle). A regular roll of Arm on the hit locations chart covers the non-vital parts of the arm.

 

The problem with this is that location 13 is a single, specific location that can be singly, specifically armored. If it weren't, then pretty much every sectional piece except for the hands and feet would provide at least some coverage, but conversely, you could always say "I'm targeting one of the Vitals locations that isn't covered by armor." Paradox, IMO.

 

I'm starting to wonder if "vitals" as in heart, lungs, major arteries, etc., shouldn't be covered by a separate rule. Say, if you roll a critical hit, then roll a location, optionally rerolling hands and feet. For whatever location you hit, gain +1/2 to the BODY multiplier and +2 to the STUN multiplier due to it hitting vital bits. Thus, a critical hit to the chest would be x1 1/2 BODY and x5 STUN, while a hit to the head would be x2 1/2 BODY and x7 STUN. It could also automatically trigger the Bleeding rules, and you could even go with, say, a minimum of 1 BODY through defenses is an Impairing wound and 3 or more through is a Disabling wound.

 

Just a few minutes ago I looked in the current edition of Dark Champions, which includes some additional optional hit locations such as eyes and spine. You can't roll for them, but you can target them. Vital organs might work well as an optional case for this, leaving location 13 as the groin area.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Mechanically, it doesn't matter what you call the place where 13 is. It's a location that you can armor, you can target it at -8, hitting someone there does 4x STUN multiple and 2x BODY. I remember my group (20 years ago) getting lots of mileage out of the notion that it was the groin, but that was just color.

 

However, the fact that we're still having this discussion means that something isn't sitting well with a lot of people. Might be best to just agree to disagree and move on, and maybe remember the wisdom of Messrs. Joel Hodgson and Michael Nelson.

[L. Marcus]

Re: The misguided attempt to over-seperate mechanics from SFX

 

The problem with this is that location 13 is a single, specific location that can be singly, specifically armored. If it weren't, then pretty much every sectional piece except for the hands and feet would provide at least some coverage, but conversely, you could always say "I'm targeting one of the Vitals locations that isn't covered by armor." Paradox, IMO.

 

I'm starting to wonder if "vitals" as in heart, lungs, major arteries, etc., shouldn't be covered by a separate rule. Say, if you roll a critical hit, then roll a location, optionally rerolling hands and feet. For whatever location you hit, gain +1/2 to the BODY multiplier and +2 to the STUN multiplier due to it hitting vital bits. Thus, a critical hit to the chest would be x1 1/2 BODY and x5 STUN, while a hit to the head would be x2 1/2 BODY and x7 STUN. It could also automatically trigger the Bleeding rules, and you could even go with, say, a minimum of 1 BODY through defenses is an Impairing wound and 3 or more through is a Disabling wound.

 

Just a few minutes ago I looked in the current edition of Dark Champions, which includes some additional optional hit locations such as eyes and spine. You can't roll for them, but you can target them. Vital organs might work well as an optional case for this, leaving location 13 as the groin area.

I like your thinking.

 

The only problem I would have with this, is that there's no way to target vital areas on their own.

 

Unless you buy CSLs with "Only To Achieve Critical Hits."

 

Hmm . . .

[Kristopher]

Re: The misguided attempt to over-seperate mechanics from SFX

 

I like your thinking.

 

The only problem I would have with this, is that there's no way to target vital areas on their own.

 

Unless you buy CSLs with "Only To Achieve Critical Hits."

 

Hmm . . .

 

Meh.

 

Personally, I don't care for critical hits, and I don't care for a generic "you hit him someplace especially vulnerable" location on the chart, and if you want to hit the heart, it's just harder yet than targeting the entire chest.

[Kristopher]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Nit pickers R us Thread.

 

 

 

 

QM

 

You, and everyone else who wants to make snide "Why are you talking about this?" comments about the Location 13 subthread, can just not read the posts about it, or not read the thread, and keep your comments to yourselves.

[L. Marcus]

Re: FH Gripes

 

. . . I get the feeling this is getting you worked up, Kristopher.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: FH Gripes

 

You' date=' and everyone else who wants to make snide "Why are you talking about this?" comments about the Location 13 subthread, can just not read the posts about it, or not read the thread, and keep your comments to yourselves. [/quote']

Sorry folks, that was poorly done. My apologies to those offended. There are several useful comments, statements, and issues covered in this Thread, but I am seeing more than a few posts that just need some common sense on the part of the GM.

 

 

Respecfully

 

 

QM

[Kristopher]

Re: FH Gripes

 

. . . I get the feeling this is getting you worked up' date=' Kristopher.[/quote']

 

No, not about the Location 13 thing. About some of the comments that have been made about the discussion.

[L. Marcus]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Ah, well, to each his own.

 

Anyway, to me, the solution seems to be simple: redesign the armor. I feel that Loc. 13 represents all kinds of "squishy bits," as someone put it, in the torso. I'd make a chestpiece cover Loc. 13 too, on a 10- Activation Roll.

[Netzilla]

Re: Necromantic Animal Handler: Deceased Equines

 

One: "Skirtplate" which covers locations 12-13. Google says' date=' and Amadan na Briona (at least one of our resident armor experts) agrees, that there is no such animal in real life. But it exists in all three editions of [i']Fantasy Hero[/i].

 

I'm not talking about the Skirtplate. I'm talking about the Skirt. It's 3 lines down on the 'Historical Sectional Armor Weight Table' on page 193 of Fantasy Hero for 5E.

[Netzilla]

Re: The misguided attempt to over-seperate mechanics from SFX

 

The problem with this is that location 13 is a single' date=' specific location that can be singly, specifically armored. If it weren't, then pretty much every sectional piece except for the hands and feet would provide at least some coverage, but conversely, you could always say "I'm targeting one of the Vitals locations that isn't covered by armor." Paradox, IMO. [/quote']

 

Is there a piece of armor in any of the official books that covers location 13 only? Sure, you can do it mechanically, but there's all kinds of things you can do mechanically that doesn't make realistic sense. There are a couple cases where you can cover all your vitals and nothing else but they require cybernetics or magic. Nothing real-world, and non of the real-world armors I've seen officially modeled in Hero cover 13 and nothing else.

 

I agree that the Skirtplate covering the Vitals while not covering the chest/arms is an oddity of the system. However, that's the only piece I can think of that covers 13 without also covering almost all of the rest of the torso. The various jackets from the Armor Coverage Table on pg 488 of 5ER apparently all cover location 13. So, unless they're all thought of as being longer than a normal "jacket", they wouldn't be covering the groin. Unfortunately, my copies of Dark Champs and Star Hero are packed right now, so I can't look up how they define sectional armors.

 

I suspect that anything that covers a significant portion of the "Vital Areas" (such as all of the lower torso or all of the upper torso) could be said to have sufficiently armored the Vitals to be of mechanical benefit by the granularity of the Hero System. Admittedly that still leaves the breastplate as an oddity as I'd normally consider it to cover most of the upper torso. Of course, we can't figure out exactly what historic piece of armor the skirt plate is, so perhaps the designers had something other than what I envision in mind whey they defined the breastplate.