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New Avengers are very Dark Champions


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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

You can keep going through the Wiki-stuff on this, but you'll find that none of it is actually defined. The only evidence of how it actually works comes from the editor of the Civil War line, which is where the quote was from. Considering he's the editor, I'll take his word for how it works.

 

Also, for a mod, you've been awfully personal in your replies. Tone it down.

 

Cheeky.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I don't read comics any more' date=' so I'm asking this out of pure ignorance: Who have they killed?[/quote']

 

Black Goliath is the only name I can think of right now, though there's a few dead supervillains (who they tried to use against the non-registered heroes) who can probably be laid at their doorstep.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

God that would be so sweet. Maybe they're actually leading up to that? Of course' date=' Tony and Reed are still murderers...[/quote']

 

I would have a problem saying "Murderer" in this case. While I do have a problem looking at them as "Heroes" because of there actions, a good case could be made for reasonable force enforcing a law that had not been deemed unconstitutional yet.

 

Now if we want to talk about "Human right violations"....

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

You can keep going through the Wiki-stuff on this' date=' but you'll find that none of it is actually defined. The only evidence of how it actually works comes from the editor of the Civil War line, which is where the quote was from. Considering he's the editor, I'll take his word for how it works.[/quote']

 

Its defined by the actions taken by Stark and his fascists very nicely. Hes certainly the most effective villain we've seen in a long time. It really makes me crazy That they killed 2 of my favorite Marvel heroes and made the last a villain with less honor than Dr. Doom. Only a DC style total reboot can save Marvel now IMO. We already see the current writers and editors have no clue about legal rights or heroes anyway.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

You can keep going through the Wiki-stuff on this' date=' but you'll find that none of it is actually defined. The only evidence of how it actually works comes from the editor of the Civil War line, which is where the quote was from. Considering he's the editor, I'll take his word for how it works.[/quote']

 

What? There's plenty of evidence of how it actually works in the comics. Try Cloud Nine in The Initiative. Little girl who can fly just wants to have fun flying. She's been forced into the program, where she faces a life of military service she never asked for or the removal of her natural gifts. Natural gifts which, by the way, seem to have no ability whatsoever to harm someone. Unless she flies into a jet engine or something, but that's really under the category of "stuff happens." Presumably her press-gang treatment was approved by the editor.

 

Frankly if the "unconstitutional" thing doesn't fly I'm hoping innocent little Cloud Nine is the downfall of the Act.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

What? There's plenty of evidence of how it actually works in the comics. Try Cloud Nine in The Initiative. Little girl who can fly just wants to have fun flying. She's been forced into the program, where she faces a life of military service she never asked for or the removal of her natural gifts. Natural gifts which, by the way, seem to have no ability whatsoever to harm someone. Unless she flies into a jet engine or something, but that's really under the category of "stuff happens." Presumably her press-gang treatment was approved by the editor.

 

Frankly if the "unconstitutional" thing doesn't fly I'm hoping innocent little Cloud Nine is the downfall of the Act.

 

On the Danny Rand thing, just a hypthesis of mine, not a definitive fact

 

Afterwards a couple of spells from Dr S or a bit of mutant wonderment from a certain babe in red, and we may see something resembling a fun world to visit again...

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

At the risk of adding Sticky to the Uncontrolled, 0 END debate going on here, how can the SHRA be considered illegal when in whatever passes for Real Life, the Patriot Act has been renewed? Without meaning to sound like I'm attacking anyone's political beliefs, the SHRA pales in comparison to the allowances granted by the Patriot Act.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

On the Danny Rand thing, just a hypthesis of mine, not a definitive fact

 

Afterwards a couple of spells from Dr S or a bit of mutant wonderment from a certain babe in red, and we may see something resembling a fun world to visit again...

Oh how typically Marvel would that be? At the end of all these storylines, everyone wakes up and it was all a dream.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

At the risk of adding Sticky to the Uncontrolled' date=' 0 END debate going on here, how can the SHRA be considered illegal when in whatever passes for Real Life, the Patriot Act has been renewed? Without meaning to sound like I'm attacking anyone's political beliefs, the SHRA pales in comparison to the allowances granted by the Patriot Act.[/quote']I would seriously beg to differ. I would say an invasion of privacy, or even the suspension of probable cause is a FAR cry from lobotomizing someone or forced life of fighting just because you were born differently. While both can be argued as "wrong", I'd much rather the former than the latter.
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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Oh how typically Marvel would that be? At the end of all these storylines' date=' everyone wakes up and it was all a dream.[/quote']

 

You know, it's funny DC gets a lot of crap about restarting there universe

 

When it happens DC tends to make a HUGE (12 issue mini crossing into all there title) deal about it

 

Marvel seems to do it alot more but slips it in under the radar trying hard not to draw attention to it...

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I would seriously beg to differ. I would say an invasion of privacy' date=' or even the suspension of probable cause is a FAR cry from lobotomizing someone or forced life of fighting just because you were born differently. While both can be argued as "wrong", I'd much rather the former than the latter.[/quote']

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I acknowledge that I am not a legal expert: the Patriot Act allows for the authorities to detain anyone without trial for as long as they need to investigate them. These detentions do not need to be reported. I assume that without any accountability, the investigation can last indefinitely, and the detainers are free to treat the captured individuals in any way they want, as long as the media doesn't find out. In theory, a captured person could be killed or maimed during their incarceration, once again with no accountability. And anyone can be the person who gets held- did you piss off an FBI agent- maybe by doing something like cutting him off at a traffic light, or turn them down for a date? If they do the "paperwork" right, they can find another incident and "link" you to terrorism and you disappear.

 

The SHRA in theory is supposed to have a paper trail, though I understand that secretary Gyrich is doing his best to sidestep that in the current storyline too.

 

I don't live in the US, but the Patriot Act is pretty scary. Isn't that sort of law the thing that traditionally that the US is known to fight against? I suspect that the point of the SHRA story lines is to serve as an allegory to the dangers of the Patriot Act. This is my opinion of course. Please don't show up in the middle of the night and take me to Cuba for an indefinite vacation for expressing it. ;)

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

MODERATOR:

This is a general "keep it cool and place nice" post. The thread seems to be rolling along ok in general so I'd hate to lock it. Please refrain from direct attacks or confrontation, and try to steer clear of real world political commentary.

 

If you absolutely have to discuss politics within the context of this subject consider starting a new thread in the NGD for such. Not only is it a more appropriate place for actual political discussion, its also some other moderators problem :D

 

We all thread drift a bit from time to time, but as a general rule of thumb please try to keep posts in the Genre threads on topic, impersonal, and appropriate to potentially informing / enhancing peoples games in those genres.

 

Thanks!

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Thanks for the gentle nudge in the right direction, KS. I apologise if my later comments ran the risk of the discussion towards the uglier side of things. It certainly was not my intent.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Actually there is accountability in the Patriot Act. A bunch of guys at the FBI just got hammered for misusing the phone tap law built into it.

CES

 

Good. That reassures me somewhat. ;)

 

Once again, I suspect that the SHRA is serving as a metaphor for some of the darker laws that have been passed. For those of us who like Dark Champion style story lines, that is great, but I am sympathetic to those who like lighter four colour material.

 

The SHRA seems more appropriate to V for Vendetta, rather than the Avengers or Fantastic Four.

 

My belief is that the Mighty Avengers will start having more fantastic storylines (Skrull Invasions, visits to Atlantis and Olympus, etc...) once they start moving away from the Civil War aftermath while the New Avengers will deal with grittier street and espionage plus mystical "Urban Fantasy" storylines.

 

As I said earlier, I'm happy because I get both, and New Avengers feels totally like the way I run my game. Admitedly I have to buy two titles to do so, but I'm okay with that. :D

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Good. That reassures me somewhat. ;)

 

Once again, I suspect that the SHRA is serving as a metaphor for some of the darker laws that have been passed. For those of us who like Dark Champion style story lines, that is great, but I am sympathetic to those who like lighter four colour material.

 

The SHRA seems more appropriate to V for Vendetta, rather than the Avengers or Fantastic Four.

 

My belief is that the Mighty Avengers will start having more fantastic storylines (Skrull Invasions, visits to Atlantis and Olympus, etc...) once they start moving away from the Civil War aftermath while the New Avengers will deal with grittier street and espionage plus mystical "Urban Fantasy" storylines.

 

As I said earlier, I'm happy because I get both, and New Avengers feels totally like the way I run my game. Admitedly I have to buy two titles to do so, but I'm okay with that. :D

 

I think the whole thing would come off better as a piece of plot if the editors and writers could sit down and figure out what they are doing. Tom Breevort the editor responsible admitted that the writers outside of the series did whatever they wanted whether it fit or not, as well as saying Millar had free rein with what he wrote without consequence.

 

That's why Iron Man is a monstrous scum bag in some of the stories and not in others as an example.

 

Right now DC is losing a lot of the marketplace according to a couple of people who look over the retail sales chart, so Marvel must have a lot of fans for what they are publishing.

 

I'm just not one of them.

 

CES

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

the main reason DC is losing out is becuase they keep going from xover event to xover event to xover event and then there is the price tag.

 

And how is that at all different from Marvel?

 

 

Avengers Disasemble ---> House of M --->Decimation --->Civil War---> Inititive

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I think the whole thing would come off better as a piece of plot if the editors and writers could sit down and figure out what they are doing. Tom Breevort the editor responsible admitted that the writers outside of the series did whatever they wanted whether it fit or not, as well as saying Millar had free rein with what he wrote without consequence.

 

That's why Iron Man is a monstrous scum bag in some of the stories and not in others as an example.

 

Right now DC is losing a lot of the marketplace according to a couple of people who look over the retail sales chart, so Marvel must have a lot of fans for what they are publishing.

 

I'm just not one of them.

 

CES

:yes:

I concur.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

And how is that at all different from Marvel?

 

 

Avengers Disasemble ---> House of M --->Decimation --->Civil War---> Inititive

 

52 the year long event comic.

 

The way it looks is like they are bringing the multiverse back in DC just so DiDio can destroy it.

 

At any rate, I just threw my hands up in the air and went to the various animated series for each one.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

52 the year long event comic.

Which was published on time, every week...while Marvel struggled to get six(?) issues of Civil War out. As much fun as it was to follow 52, reading the series was not required reading for any of the other titles.

 

The way it looks is like they are bringing the multiverse back in DC just so DiDio can destroy it.

They brought the multiverse back...the last part is just a guess.

 

At any rate, I just threw my hands up in the air and went to the various animated series for each one.

Which are well done, and keep good continuity because they don't have a monthly schedule to keep.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Once again' date=' I suspect that the SHRA is serving as a metaphor for some of the darker laws that have been passed. For those of us who like Dark Champion style story lines, that is great, but I am sympathetic to those who like lighter four colour material.[/quote']

 

I think you're confusing "shades of grey" writing, which Marvel has used for decades, with street-level storylines. The SHRA is definitely a "shades of grey" item, but it isn't street-level by any means. Dark Champions is purely street-level. I would have a hard time believing that the New Avengers will be confined to street level storylines, given their current roster and past usage of Avengers titles.

 

Marvel's main street-level characters are Daredevil, Punisher, and (occasionally) Spider-Man. Spider-Man is mostly Champions, but occasionally drifts into DC:TAS and on very rare occasion Dark Champions. Daredevil waffles between Dark Champions and DC:TAS. Punisher is clearly a Dark Champions character through-and-through, who is occasionally thrown into DC:TAS or even Champions plots for no good reason.

 

My belief is that the Mighty Avengers will start having more fantastic storylines (Skrull Invasions, visits to Atlantis and Olympus, etc...) once they start moving away from the Civil War aftermath while the New Avengers will deal with grittier street and espionage plus mystical "Urban Fantasy" storylines.

 

The mission of the New Avengers is supposedly to capture the supercriminals who escaped during the prison break, but I think that may fall into the background. I expect the comic to cover underground railroad and rallying point stories for anti-registration superheroes. I also expect them to come into conflict with the Mighty Avengers on a (very) regular basis. One of the major points of conflict will likely be the Young Avengers.

 

While this contains some "shades of grey" elements, it is not necessarily that dark and certainly isn't street level.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I think you're confusing "shades of grey" writing' date=' which Marvel has used for decades, with street-level storylines. The SHRA is definitely a "shades of grey" item, but it isn't street-level by any means. Dark Champions is purely street-level. I would have a hard time believing that the New Avengers will be confined to street level storylines, given their current roster and past usage of Avengers titles.[/quote']

 

Dark Champions covers a pretty wide range of genres. It's *not* purely street level, though that is usually the primary element that comes to mind. I also said that they would handle espionage (which can be pretty Dark Champions) and urban fantasy style mysticism (which is Dark Champions-esque if you include "street mages", which I speculated was the direction that Dr Strange was headed in.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

(and magic courtesy of Dr Strange)

 

 

You lost me right there. I don't mind when a character conecpt is 'magical'(Its usualkly the way I go, in fact.), but it annoys me when writers are going for one thing but then resort to the 'magic as an answer for anything' well.

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