Hugh Neilson Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. The Phantom, the first character to wear a skin-tight costume while fighting crime started publication in newspapers in 1936. Super-powered crimefighters were already well represented in pulp magazines. But without Superman I don't think they would be called "superheroes", and it seems unlikely that they would dominate the American comic book industry the way they do. I don't know that I would consider the Pulp characters "Super-powered". The Shadow had a bit of hypnosis/invisibility, and the Avenger had his unusual disguise ability. Many early comic heroes were pulp characters in a new medium (Batman, Crimson Avenger and the Sandman are obvious examples), but characters like Superman, Green Lantern and the Spectre were a new breed. It's not certain they would have developed without the Superman concept. They were, for the most part, designed to capitalize on the Superman market. Had that market, and that template, not been there, these characters would likely not have been created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkwleisemann Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. Mmm... personally, I beg to differ. Characters like The Shadow and Doc Savage were, in a lot of ways, prototypical superheroes. Just *look* at what came out of them - Batman is, in many ways, a powered down Shadow without the resources and with Doc Savage's gadget pool. Captain America is Doc Savage with more government backing and a different background. And the super*villain* was certainly an element of the pulps - if you can't see Dr. Doom in any of a dozen different Pulp villains, you're not looking close enough. They might have been "limited" to "mere" human capability, but a lot of the old pulpsters were bush league superheroes at least. Particularly Doc. I mean... really. Supersonic hearing and other super-senses Superstrength (admittedly, low levels of it) Superspeed (same low levels) Superb martial arts A gadget pool that would make Batman blush, and a bankroll to match *Five* similarly skilled, but more focused, Followers to help him with multi-person tasks. He's even got Supes' Fortress of Solitude in the arctic... he just had it first. I mean... really. What's Superman got that he hasn't got, aside from an extra 70 years or so of power fluctuations and actually being bulletproof instead of dodging them or wearing a vest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. Mmm... personally' date=' I beg to differ. Characters like The Shadow and Doc Savage were, in a lot of ways, prototypical superheroes. Just *look* at what came out of them - Batman is, in many ways, a powered down Shadow without the resources and with Doc Savage's gadget pool. Captain America is Doc Savage with more government backing and a different background.[/quote'] The late '30's/early '40's comic characters include a large mix of pulp characters, with the only major change being the colorful costumes and masks (taking advantage of an illustrated medium). They might have been "limited" to "mere" human capability' date=' but a lot of the old pulpsters were bush league superheroes at least. Particularly Doc. I mean... really.[/quote'] I would agree with the pulp characters being proto-Supers. However, I would classify them as "masked mystery men", and not the "Super Hero" as the concept evolved to. In the absence of Superman, I think the comics would have trended towards characters such as the Atom, Batman, Sandman, Captain America, Crimson Avenger, possibly Green Arrow (without complex trick arrows), Aquaman (likely with no abilities other than water breathing), Wildcat, Mr. Terrific and Dr. Mid-Nite - all more or less normal humans with maybe one unusual ability. Characters like the Spectre Dr. Fate, Flash, Hawkman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Hourman, Captain Marvel, Human Torch, Sub-Mariner - I think without the Superman example to follow (and the Superman success to chase!), such characters are much less likely to have been created and published. *Five* similarly skilled' date=' but more focused, Followers to help him with multi-person tasks.[/quote'] Actually, this is an issue that makes the Pulps hard to recreate in gaming. The Shadow, the Avenger and Doc Savage didn't so much have followers as their henchmen had a Contact. The old pulp novels tend to center around those more human individuals, using the higher powered title characters quite sparingly. The closest the comics ever really came to this approach, and it's not very close, were the old Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen comics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. all more or less normal humans with maybe one unusual ability. This is really the key to most Pulp supers. Leafing through Jess Nevins' Victorian and Pulp encyclopedias, you'll find characters who could breath under water, see in the dark, turn invisible, live forever, lift huge weights, read minds, etc, etc. You'll also find any number of Yogis and Hypnotists. People who could do more than one or two of these to any great extent were rare, and were usually the bad guys. Doc Savage and Shadow class characters stopped right at the edge of human ability as it was then conceived, but didn't quite go beyond (except for a few tricks that the spiritualists of the day thought of as within the realm of possibility). Then along comes Superman, taking the Hugo Danner power set and adventures but dropping the satire aspect of the character, mixing in some of the adventures and gimmicks of the Shadow, Doc Savage, and others, adding the costume, and the heroes who followed were able to ignore the issue of Human Limits entirely. The impossible powers of the bad guys were suddenly available to the heroes, and without most of the splattering blood and falling bodies of the pulps. It was an incredible change. And I agree with Hugh that without Superman the Superhero wouldn't have looked anything like what we see today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. This brings flashbacks of the Golden Heroes game. GH provided for randomly generated superpowers' date=' of which you had a random number.[/quote'] GH has been re-released under the title Squadron UK. I'm particularly amused by its supplement Superfrance! In the current version of GH, at least, it is usual for all characters to have the same number of power rolls. The main trick with rationalising the random rolls, in my experience, was to avoid rolling too many powers, and instead upgrade them as much as possible. That didn't always work, since there are plenty of powers that can't be upgraded much, if at all. But it was much easier to rationalise three or so powers than seven, and upgraded powers are much more useful than their basic forms. It wasn't too much of a problem, in other words, although you could still get characters that made very little sense. I still prefer being able to pick my character's powers, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. The Phantom (1936) had all the superhero stuff except the powers. Mandrake (1934) had the powers, but relatively little of the other stuff. Lee Falk came very close to putting the whole thing together. Of course, the relatively low powered mystic/mentalist, as people have pointed out, was more or less within the Pulp range. The truly superhumanly strong and bulletproof superhuman wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morningstar Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. I read somewhere that Americans look as Superman as who we wish we were, and Spiderman as who we actually are. A lot of truth to that, IMO. As to worst hero ever, my vote goes to Captain Planet. You mean I'm really Spiderman!! Wohoo!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morningstar Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. My criteria make no sense? Superman can do anything, can be defeated by nothing, and if something just happens to get the upper hand he has a bigger gadget pool than Reed Richards. Its something a six year old kid would create when he and his buddies were running around playing in the backyard. He's just bad...so very, very, bad. Honestly, 100% seriousness to all of the Superman apologists. If he didn't exist before now, if there was no 'Superman' template even, and he came along today, would he even make it into a comic book? See "The Sentry" in Marvel Comics. Instead of Kyrptonite, he has mental problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. Clonus: I like your "Galatea" alot. You actaully managed to find a way to take that random list of powers and make a character out of it. You made a change to the power set though, and I think that is what made the concept work. I had said: The power to pyichicly make pictures come to life (an actual power from the Marvel Superheroes RPG) You changed it to: The power to psychicly make statues come to life. I realize that it is a minor change, but I think it made all the difference in ability to make a cohesive concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. Clonus: I like your "Galatea" alot. You actaully managed to find a way to take that random list of powers and make a character out of it. You made a change to the power set though, and I think that is what made the concept work. I had said: The power to pyichicly make pictures come to life (an actual power from the Marvel Superheroes RPG) You changed it to: The power to psychicly make statues come to life. A sculpture is just a three-dimensional picture. She could bring paintings to life if she tried, but it would never occur to her. That's not her kind of art and she'd never use another artist's work that way. What if it was damaged? She'd never forgive herself. No, the real problem with my writeup is her gravity bolts. I fudged and genericised them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Czech Posted May 8, 2007 Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. I don't know whether it was mentioned already, but how about the kid from "Mystery Men" that could become invisible, but only if nobody (including himself) were looking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted May 8, 2007 Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. Dude, you just said it right there... JESUS, THE NUCLEAR WHALE! He's the worst hero ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Czech Posted May 8, 2007 Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. LOL, I'm totally writing a "Jesus the nuclear whale" supervillan. I hate to toot my own horn, but I really love my sig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palaskar Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. Please post stats for Jesus, the Nuclear Whale! I want to see how he stacks up against Professor Clam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Czech Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. If I were going to write up Jesus, the Nuclear Whale to pit him against anyone, it's be Captain Takes Double Damage From Sonics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Re: Worst. Hero. Ever. I posted a secret origin for Jesus, The Nuclear Whale on the "Rejected Superhero Names' thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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