DEX levels in your campaign.

[lapsedgamer]

I was reading Champions Around the World, and I noticed that the characters had slighty lower than normal DEXs. What I mean is that they had DEX stats that were about 2-5 points lower than I would have expected based on my experience with previous published characters created using the same archetypes.

 

I actually liked most of the write-ups, but I wondered how they would fit in with other official Champs universe material, or in a pre-existing home made campaign.

 

For those of you who have not read the book, they have a Batman anologue with a 20 DEX, and a version of Green Arrow with a 22 DEX. Most of the characters have a value of between 18-23 for DEX.

 

This would work really well if everyone was using the same scale, but I don't think everyone does. So I'm curious. What scale do you use? Am I an unwitting victim of the dreaded DEX inflation?

[pinecone]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Every group seems to have a differant "Dex scale" I used to work at 20 average to 26 wow!. Now a days with 350 points, most are 23 to 26...only speedsters go higher, with the occasional wise guy 30 dex martial artist....

[Weldun]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Agreed. Take for instance, the fortnightly games I'm involved with. Every second saturday, Sundog and I get together with some friends of ours (Including people who post on these boards like Fireleaper, Dhroz and BarbaraVdB).

 

In the afternoon, my City On The Edge campaign includes a DEX 26/SPD 6 Brick, a DEX 30/SPD 6 Supersoldier, a DEX 23/SPD 5 Energy Projector, a DEX 20/SPD 5 Energy Projector and a DEX 15/SPD 4 Mentalist.

 

In the evening, Sundogs Kingdom City campaign includes DEX scores as Low as 16, with my character, The Specter, ranging from 18-33, depending on the situation. I'm not as sure as everyone elses DEX scores, but as The Specter is on public record as team leader, I guess I need to find out.

[bwdemon]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

One of my favorite argume... err.. topics!

 

DEX/SPD inflation is an issue in HERO. NCM represents a normal human's maximum stats and most other stats revolve around this premise in core HERO Games material. However, DEX & SPD are noticeable exceptions. Some players and GMs take inflation even farther. I would strongly prefer the end of such inflation. It represents a tax every character is forced to pay to be competitive in the game. Still, what it comes down to is this: you should adjust your NPCs & PCs to account for the degree of inflation in your particular game.

 

I tend to believe that DEX/SPD figures should be dropped considerably in light of NCM, but I guarantee that I've made more inflated characters than not. I also guarantee I'll make more inflated characters in the future just to fit the games I'm likely to play in.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Depends on the campaign. Our current games seem to have dexes in the 15-30 range, though in many previous games it was often more clustered in the 23-30 range.

[Edsel]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

It has been a long time since we played a Champions game but back when we did the average DEX seemed to be around 23. The range was pretty broad from 18 at the low end up to about 30 as a maximum.

[Grimble]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I've got 9 players in my current game. Character DEX runs from 12 to 38. I think the players have done pretty well matching DEX to type of super they're playing. Most of the lower DEX characters have taken CSLs for their specialized attacks.

 

 

Grimble

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

As the Champs universe lists 30 as the max human potential, I tend to run just under that for most - that way anyone with a "superbly trained human" is still within campaign norms.

 

In 2 games I play it have a spread of 18-26.

In another it has a spread of 18-29 (everyone is 23 or less, aside from the speedster, whom the GM wanted 5 or 6 pts above everyone else).

In the last champions game I ran, a high powered 750 pt game they were from 23 to 33.

In solo play, I have an "ultimate martial artist" who by SFX has no superpowers (although her ch'i stuff is almost hitting anime levels) who has a 32 (yes, that is Blackcat).

[Pariah]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

As the Champs universe lists 30 as the max human potential, I tend to run just under that for most - that way anyone with a "superbly trained human" is still within campaign norms.

 

In 2 games I play it have a spread of 18-26.

In another it has a spread of 18-19.

 

Me too.

 

As a GM, I like DEXes in the 20's, and SPDs in the 4-7 range.

 

As a player, I like the upper end of the DEX range, unless I'm playing a Brick (which, sadly, almost never happens). In my philosophy, the only substitute for a good DEX is high defenses.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Me too.

 

 

Silly.

 

And I had a type that was supposed to be 18-29. Not 18-19. *Sigh*

[Bloodstone]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

For those of you who have not read the book, they have a Batman anologue with a 20 DEX, and a version of Green Arrow with a 22 DEX. Most of the characters have a value of between 18-23 for DEX.

 

If I recall, the Green Arrow clone also has something like 6 or 7 CSL's with his Bow and something like 8 or 10 PSL's for Range.

 

So even with a "low" Dex he's still one of the best shots in the CU.

 

And when he doesn't need to have such a huge OCV he can easily convert those extra levels into DC's.

[Balabanto]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

The DEX range in my Legacies game is 18-33. Always has been. Won't be changing. Anything above thirty is considered "Pushing it with the GM, better have some weaknesses."

 

I limit CSLs too, and don't allow them to deal damage. I'm very old school. It is what it is. I want comic bookiness, that means long drawn out combats, recurring villains, and capped damage dealing so that people are difficult to hurt and don't die too often.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

If I recall, the Green Arrow clone also has something like 6 or 7 CSL's with his Bow and something like 8 or 10 PSL's for Range.

 

So even with a "low" Dex he's still one of the best shots in the CU.

 

And when he doesn't need to have such a huge OCV he can easily convert those extra levels into DC's.

 

You are right. Without going through the whole character here, he has a lot of levels that give a lot of flexibility for CV and DCs. My main thoughts were in the areas of intiative and SPD.

 

Green Arrow is not the best HtH fighter in the DCU, but he can hold his own. I've never read anything where he appeared to be markedly slower that any of his companions, especially not with his bow in hand.

 

As written, the Green Arrow homage in Champions Around the World would almost always go last or close to last when working in a group with the standard printed characters. The Batman send-up as well, and Batman types are generally built to be very scary in hand to hand and lightning fast.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

The DEX range in my Legacies game is 18-33. Always has been. Won't be changing. Anything above thirty is considered "Pushing it with the GM, better have some weaknesses."

 

I limit CSLs too, and don't allow them to deal damage. I'm very old school. It is what it is. I want comic bookiness, that means long drawn out combats, recurring villains, and capped damage dealing so that people are difficult to hurt and don't die too often.

 

I agree that DEX stats over 30 should be rare. In my mind they generally belong to speedsters or master villains/supreme NPCs. Sometimes there will be a martial artist who gets there by didnt of sheer badassedness, but that would be a noteworthy exception.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

re: archers like Green Arrow and Hawkeye.

 

I think these types of characters should have a DEX as high as the best non-speedster martial artists in the setting. These types of characters depend on offense as their defense. They just aren't going to have as many MA maneuvers and levels devoted to HTH as the Batman/Captain America types. Alternatively, they can have an average DEX and Lightning Reflexes to make up the difference plus more levels with ranged attacks but this is clunkier to keep track of and saves little if any points in the process.

 

Also, some speedster-hybrids aren't always going to have that high of a DEX if their power is primarily movement-speed as opposed to reflex-speed.

 

The outcome of a fight between Hyper-Man and Aoi-Ya (The Japanese Green Arrow) depends a lot on the battlefield as either is capable of stunning the other.

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

As written' date=' the Green Arrow homage in Champions Around the World would almost always go last or close to last when working in a group with the standard printed characters.[/quote']

I don't think you're noticing the lightning reflexes. The Green Arrow homage has a 26 dex for going first when using his bow. The way the CU is set up [with 30 mostly being the dex ceiling] a 26 gives him a pretty quick on the initiative.

 

I generally consider the CU dexs to be a sore point for me. There's too many people with 20s and not enough with dexs over 30. The CU states that a 30 dex is the human pinnacle but then doesn't give us any character examples with super-human dexs. Why have a benchmark system if you're not going to use it in your universe? You might as well of made 25 dex the human pinnacle. Then you could, at least, say there are some characters in the CU with superhuman dexs.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I don't think you're noticing the lightning reflexes. The Green Arrow homage has a 26 dex for going first when using his bow. The way the CU is set up [with 30 mostly being the dex ceiling] a 26 gives him a pretty quick on the initiative.

 

I generally consider the CU dexs to be a sore point for me. There's too many people with 20s and not enough with dexs over 30. The CU states that a 30 dex is the human pinnacle but then doesn't give us any character examples with super-human dexs. Why have a benchmark system if you're not going to use it in your universe? You might as well of made 25 dex the human pinnacle. Then you could, at least, say there are some characters in the CU with superhuman dexs.

 

You're right. I didn't see lightning reflexes on the sheet when I read it last night. I thought I read it through pretty well too. That write-up makes a little more sense to me now, but I still wonder. I'm also still wondering about the Batman clone though. Don't get me wrong. I think teh book is good overall. I'm just thinking about tweaking it a little for my own uses.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

One of my favorite argume... err.. topics!

 

DEX/SPD inflation is an issue in HERO. NCM represents a normal human's maximum stats and most other stats revolve around this premise in core HERO Games material. However, DEX & SPD are noticeable exceptions. Some players and GMs take inflation even farther. I would strongly prefer the end of such inflation. It represents a tax every character is forced to pay to be competitive in the game. Still, what it comes down to is this: you should adjust your NPCs & PCs to account for the degree of inflation in your particular game.

 

I tend to believe that DEX/SPD figures should be dropped considerably in light of NCM, but I guarantee that I've made more inflated characters than not. I also guarantee I'll make more inflated characters in the future just to fit the games I'm likely to play in.

NCM is Normal Characteristics Maxima. It's for normals. You put on longjons and fight (or cause) crime, you are no longer normal.

 

It's one of my favorite disucssions as well.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Taipan has a 30+ dex does he not?

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I'm also still wondering about the Batman clone though.

Which character do you consider to be the Batman clone? I don't remember a character fitting that archetype.

 

In general I do consider many of the characters in Worldwide to be lower then most of the other books. I've found, in general though, that Darren's characters tend to be written to a slightly lower scale then Steve's. Darren uses a lot of 14-18 dexs while Steve tends to use 20 as the minimum [except for bricks].

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Taipan has a 30+ dex does he not?

Taipan has a 30 [but he has a 12 speed].

[Trebuchet]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Our Champions campaign averages in the mid-20's; 23 is the single most common DEX, and IIRC there are two 26's. We also have a DEX 33 MA and Zl'f tops it out at 43 DEX.

[Bloodstone]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Which character do you consider to be the Batman clone? I don't remember a character fitting that archetype.

 

He's probably talking about El Dorado.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I was originally thinking about Autour but, on a second viewing, he looks to be closer to Hawkman. El Dorado is a better example. I hope I'm at least selling some books for Hero here. These are pretty good write-ups.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Which character do you consider to be the Batman clone? I don't remember a character fitting that archetype.

 

In general I do consider many of the characters in Worldwide to be lower then most of the other books. I've found, in general though, that Darren's characters tend to be written to a slightly lower scale then Steve's. Darren uses a lot of 14-18 dexs while Steve tends to use 20 as the minimum [except for bricks].

 

Yeah. I always wrote characters that were a little less powerful than some of the guys I used to play with. I guess it's a matter of taste. Mr. Long and Mr. Watts both tend to write excellent characters. Maybe they disagree on where DEX should be set.