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DEX levels in your campaign.


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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Normals have a SPD of 3, Heroes have 6. This is to reduce headaches for me, as I'm actually a novice GM.

 

DEX, like any other characteristic, is considered a power, and thus falls under the campaign max: base 40, boostable up to 50 via other powers. Those who are paying attention to this have DEX of 23; those who aren't tend to have DEX of 12 or 15.

 

If it's your core concept power, it can be 60, boostable up to 80. No one is currently doing this.

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

From my worlds.

bricks and energy projectors-14-20

martial artists-18-29

spider man types/speedsters-29-50

 

I tend to take the "average" rating of 10 seriously so my trained mooks never are higher than 15 DEX. Only named characters get that high. NCM is encouraged unless your power specifically gives you enhanced physical abilities. Now in my SF campaign I use a soft NCM doubling each 5 points over the limit and there are no speedsters as such so DEX in the high teens is pretty good( Only one PC has more than 20 DEX right now and she's a 300 year old+ dancer/martial artist)

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Has anyone just sat down with their group at the start of the campaign and said... "Okay, DEX is nice and all, and helps you go first, but CSLs are much cheaper, let you hit just as well, and even let you do more damage and do other tricks. You blow all those points on DEX, but in the end the guy who paid 40% your cost for CSLs can still hit your butt just as easily, but with rebound shots for extra bonuses that your high DEX doesn't let you do. Unless you're an acrobat, buy CSLs instead."

 

The more I read this thread, the more I think DEX has become a hinderance instead of a help in the HERO system. Why should everyone pay an extra 39 points to get DEX:23 if EVERYONE has DEX:23 anyways! Maybe in 6th Edition DEX should cost 5pts/level, that will suddenly make CSLs the way to go and keep those rampant DEXs down! GURPS doubled the cost of it's "Uber Stats" in 4th edition, and it was probably the best thing they ever did!

 

Rob

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I maintain that costing won't help the issue. If everyone has 23 DEX (because the GM allows it and/or keeps creating villains who have CVs which demand it) and DEX costs 5/pts per level instead of 3/pts per level, the "character tax" will only be worse.

 

DEX is reasonably costed vis-a-vis CSLs and other stats, in my opinion. After that, it's down to GM control and restraint.

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Actually, the problem is that CSLS ARE more expensive. You get more bang for your buck out of DEX than you do out of any comparative CSL.

 

Raising your DEX by 3 points costs 6. assuming your SPD stays the same. This gives you +1 OCV and +1 DCV. But it also increases your DEX rolls, and your initiative order, and in Hero, because of the way the system works, the right of way always goes to the fastest gun, because the system is structured around Attack=2.5x Points in Defense.

 

Being able to move first enables you to target opponents quickly, seek the best cover, and occupy a more dominant position on the Champions battlefield. When I started playing Champions, I realized that the most important thing about the game was mastery of the combat rules.

 

Unless you run an investigation heavy game (And fortunately, I do), there's not a lot of reason to buy high end skill levels.

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

"Okay' date=' DEX is nice and all, and helps you go first, but CSLs are much cheaper, let you hit just as well, and even let you do more damage and do other tricks.[/quote']

The problem is that CSL are not cheaper. I can build an 18 dex, 4 speed brick and give him 2 hth levels for 46 points. That gives him up to an 8 ocv or 8 dcv in melee but only a 6 ocv/dcv in range. Or I can build a 23 dex, 4 speed brick for 46 points and he will always have an 8 ocv and 8 dcv versus melee and ranged attacks. Sure he's losing the +3 stun damage he could use the CSL for but that really seems like a small price to pay for +2 ocv in range and +2 dcv all the time, and the ability to increase your initiative. Even if I took 3 "punch, grab, & haymaker" levels for a total of 45 points I'd still be a walking target versus ranged foes [and we all know over half the villains in the game use ranged attacks] and only gain the benefit of +1 ocv for the 1 point savings.

 

So would you rather have an 8 ocv 8 dcv character or an 8 ocv 6 dcv character for the same price? Most people'd rather have the 8/8; and that's why the average dex has been around 23 in Hero for the last 25 years.

 

If you're not playing in a game where point efficiency matters you can give Batman a 20 dex, 6 speed, and +10 lightning reflexes, and +3 combat levels, and +3 dcv levels and end up with a guy with a 30 dex initiative and 10 ocv 10 dcv but you paid 114 points for him. I'd rather give him the 30 dex and 6 speed for 80 points [plus getting the benefit of +2 on all dex skills] and then spend the other 24 points on other abilities.

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

If the CSL/DEX balance is off, then, then one of them needs to either become more expensive or cheaper. It's that simple. Obviously however, there will probably be no agreement either way (since things haven't changed in the last 3 editions!), and unless the editors make a decision (which will probably piss off half the people here) nothing will change. So I guess DEX:23 it is!

 

Although this does make me consider halving the price of CSLs to try and make them more viable...

 

Rob

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I have to say my jaw hits the table when I hear DEXes range from 30 - 50. 50!?! You gonna drop 120 in just DEX!?!

 

To my mind, that is freakishly high. Of course, I suppose if you are playing Galactic Champions or something it's not too bad. Still, 50? EEP!

 

A natural OCV/DCV of 17. I'd imagine at that point you'd probably have a couple of levels too. 7 Mooks? I put my 9 levels into OCV and SWEEEEEEEEEP!

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

If the CSL/DEX balance is off, then, then one of them needs to either become more expensive or cheaper. It's that simple. Obviously however, there will probably be no agreement either way (since things haven't changed in the last 3 editions!), and unless the editors make a decision (which will probably piss off half the people here) nothing will change. So I guess DEX:23 it is!

 

Although this does make me consider halving the price of CSLs to try and make them more viable...

 

Rob

I think it's more of an issue with people solely equating the dex characteristic with agility. Dex is, in fact, a combat characteristic determining initiative, ability to hit, ability to defend, and number of actions per turn. Skill bonuses and hand/eye coordination [dex rolls] are really secondary benefits of the characteristic.

 

Some people see Grond and think "how can he be nearly as agile as an Olympic gymnast?" Those are the people who see dex solely as a measure of agility. Other people see Grond and realize the 18 dex is just a measure of combat ability: increased initiative, increased actions per turn, bonuses to attack and to defend from being attacked. The bonus to skills doesn't matter since he has no dex-based skills.

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I have to say my jaw hits the table when I hear DEXes range from 30 - 50. 50!?! You gonna drop 120 in just DEX!?!

 

I had players wanting that back when I ran HERO in the 80's with 250pt characters! DEX is the WIN stat, and why else do players seem to play supers games? :straight:

 

It's why I always capped DEX at 30, and unsurprisingly, most players seemed to be quite happy to pay the 60 points for it. ("So, it lets me kick the asses of most published villians? I am SO there!") As has been noted elsewhere, DEX and SPD are seemingly costly, but the returns are so damn high why not invest in them? No powergamer I know (who couldn't have the VPP they wanted) would go without maxed DEX, high speed and an uberweapon to go with it. Surprise, they also beat the pants out of any character remotely balanced!

 

Yes, I know that's where the GM comes in, and making noncombat scenarios, but after 20 years of fighting players trying to exploit the system, it just gets tiring. It's also why I gave up trying to use HERO for supers years ago, sad to say.

 

[sorry for the rant...:( ]

 

Rob

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

So what happens if you take the attribute out of the equation?

 

1. Everybody has CV=0 unless they pay otherwise (CSLs)

2. DEX impacts SPD, DEX Rolls, and Initiative

3. DEX becomes essentially as valuable as INT - should cost 1:1

 

It isn't a bad idea, really.

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

One of the things that keeps DEX up in the games I play and GM in is that most of the GMs that I've played under (including the first) had rule of "no more points spent in SPD, than final DEX value" What this meant was that every level of SPD had a Minimum DEX value. So SPD 3 needed DEX 10, and every level after that required at least 5 levels of DEX. The reasoning was that DEX covered agility, co-ordinartion and reflexes (it determines initiative afterall), so unless you had a very good reason, you needed to be DEXtrous to be able to act so often in a turn without tripping over yourself. It never really turned out to be an issue, but it's a rule that I've adopted for my own campaigns. It's not hard and fast for me, but I do like to see a good reason why someone's DEX is so low. Hell, one of my more recent builds has a DEX of 18 and a SPD of 6, but he also has +6 Lightning Reflexes.

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

: Activates Dead Horse Beating Powers :

 

As said here multiple times, the GM and the players need to regulate these and other game breaking abilities. Yes players want to win but what's the point if there is no challenge to it? If a player's idea of fun is being the best of the best of the best, remind them, that other players need a time to shine as well.

 

: Disabling Dead Horse Beating Powers :

 

The truth behind the stat ...

 

Dexterity

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

So what happens if you take the attribute out of the equation?

 

1. Everybody has CV=0 unless they pay otherwise (CSLs)

2. DEX impacts SPD, DEX Rolls, and Initiative

3. DEX becomes essentially as valuable as INT - should cost 1:1

 

It isn't a bad idea, really.

 

Excellent idea, but I'd say make it 2:1 for the simple reason that if you don't then why would anyone buy SPD? I can pay 20 points for DEX and get DX:30 and associated bonuses and SPD:4, or pay the same 20 points to get...SPD:4. :straight:

 

Rob

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Interesting. The PCs in my campaign haven't received XP yet (we're on the initial plot), but the only limits on characteristics I gave them were those found in the "Superheroic" and "Standard" guideline table (Char 10-40, SPD 3-10). The Speed goes from 4-7 (avg 5.2) and DEX goes from 16-29 (avg 22.4).

 

Though Taipan has a 12 Speed, I'm surprised they limited him to a 30 Dex. Two of my favorite pre-5e villains were Pantera (spd 7, Dex 35) and Destruction (spd 6, Dex 38). I thought someone had a 40+ Dex, but can seem to find her (thought it was a "her").

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I'd rather increase the cost of SPD over DEX in that case' date=' due to the value of the stat.[/quote']

 

Still doesn't fix the problem, because it still becomes cheaper for everyone to invest in 20pts of neo-DEX instead of putting points into SPD. If the point was to reduce DEX abuse by reducing it's ulitlity, this won't work. You'd have to uncouple SPD and DEX entirely to make this system work and say everyone started with base SPD of 1.

 

Rob

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Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Currently, most characters in my games are 18-22 DEX. Bricks on the low end, most supers in the 21-22 range. 23-25 for high end "standard" supers. 26-29 for very select speedsters and martial artists. 30+ is reserved for people like the Flash; there MIGHT be 5 people in the entire CU with that much DEX.

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