DEX levels in your campaign.

[Trebuchet]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I have to say my jaw hits the table when I hear DEXes range from 30 - 50. 50!?! You gonna drop 120 in just DEX!?!

 

To my mind, that is freakishly high. Of course, I suppose if you are playing Galactic Champions or something it's not too bad. Still, 50? EEP!

 

A natural OCV/DCV of 17. I'd imagine at that point you'd probably have a couple of levels too. 7 Mooks? I put my 9 levels into OCV and SWEEEEEEEEEP!

You say that like it's a bad thing...

[wylodmayer]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I maintain that CSLs and DEX are reasonably costed against each other. With Martial Maneuvers CSLs you get +1 OCV or DCV for 3 points, +1 that in both at once for 6; you pay 9 points to get +1 OCV and DCV just buying straight DEX. Sure it's limited application, but that's the point.

 

Besides, going first isn't everything. For the amount that you spend on 23 DEX, you can buy 17 DEX and +4 Martial Maneuver levels and Martial Block; I abort to a block and I have a 4 pt advantage over you - I need a 15 or less! And I go first next time.

 

Bottom line, I mean, of course you will come out less efficient if you're trying to do everything a higher DEX does through CSLs and Lightning Reflexes. I mean, duh. But the whole point is you don't always need to be able to do everything the higher DEX does.

 

And, again, you won't always be allowed to, either. In my games, you don't just get to buy 23 DEX because you bloody well want it. If it ain't in your backstory, forget it.

 

I think that game had two 14s, a 17, and one 23.

 

No prob.

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I maintain that CSLs and DEX are reasonably costed against each other. With Martial Maneuvers CSLs you get +1 OCV or DCV for 3 points' date=' +1 that in both at once for 6; you pay 9 points to get +1 OCV and DCV just buying straight DEX. Sure it's limited application, but that's the point. [/quote']

Actually purchasing the extra dex at character creation would only cost you 6 points for the +1 ocv and dcv due to 3 points being offset by speed. So there's no limited application problems.

 

Besides, going first isn't everything. For the amount that you spend on 23 DEX, you can buy 17 DEX and +4 Martial Maneuver levels and Martial Block; I abort to a block and I have a 4 pt advantage over you - I need a 15 or less! And I go first next time.

That's fine if you want to abort all the time or your character concept is a martial arts type. Otherwise it sucks.

[wylodmayer]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

That's fine if you want to abort all the time or your character concept is a martial arts type. Otherwise it sucks.

 

I dunno... there's nothing about a 15- throw for a defense that sucks, in my book. Sure, you Abort your action, but then you go first next time 'round, regardless of relative DEX, Lightning Reflexes or anything else.

 

Bottom line, if the point is that it's better to have a higher DEX than not... well... again, "duh." I'm just pointing out that it's not some kind of death sentence. I mean, in the game I've been referencing, Ghost - the mentalist with Invisibility - got by just fine thanks with a 14 DEX. If the GM is doing his job and not inflating NPCs' DEX scores, then a moderate DEX, some skill levels, and smart use of tactics (Heaven forbid you should have to Abort or, you know, actually use the combat rules to your advantage - we wouldn't want players to have to do something other than Stand 'n' Swing) is all you really need.

[Barbara vdB]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

In the evening, Sundogs Kingdom City campaign includes DEX scores as Low as 16, with my character, The Specter, ranging from 18-33, depending on the situation. I'm not as sure as everyone elses DEX scores, but as The Specter is on public record as team leader, I guess I need to find out.

__________________

The reasoning was that DEX covered agility, co-ordinartion and reflexes (it determines initiative afterall), so unless you had a very good reason, you needed to be DEXtrous to be able to act so often in a turn without tripping over yourself. It never really turned out to be an issue, but it's a rule that I've adopted for my own campaigns

Weldun

___________

In answer to the first Felicity did have 16 Dex. During the period of dormancy in stasis, her body took the opportunity to upgrade. She is now being hit with your second point as she attempts to adjust to the new reaction time and hand/eye co-ordination. Not good on a flyer.

[Clonus]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I don't think you're noticing the lightning reflexes. The Green Arrow homage has a 26 dex for going first when using his bow. The way the CU is set up [with 30 mostly being the dex ceiling] a 26 gives him a pretty quick on the initiative.

 

I generally consider the CU dexs to be a sore point for me. There's too many people with 20s and not enough with dexs over 30. The CU states that a 30 dex is the human pinnacle but then doesn't give us any character examples with super-human dexs.

 

That's solidly based on the original source material. In comic books, characters like Batman, and Captain America are almost never overmatched in terms of their ability to hit, dodge and manuever because if they were, then they'd be worthless. The only exception's are certain super-speedsters, and even then their ability to connect is usually not equal to their elusiveness.

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

That's solidly based on the original source material. In comic books' date=' characters like Batman, and Captain America are almost never overmatched in terms of their ability to hit, dodge and manuever because if they were, then they'd be worthless. The only exception's are certain super-speedsters, and even then their ability to connect is usually not equal to their elusiveness.[/quote']

The problem stems from the benchmarks. If 31+ is superhuman then where are all the superhuman characters in the CU? Where's the Spider-mans and Nightcrawlers? They exist in the genre but not in the CU.

 

And it's not just the dex benchmark. 51 is the threshold for superhuman intelligence yet there's only one character with a 50 and only 2 with a 35 or higher. Surely there are characters who have superhuman intelligence? When you set your benchmarks so high that they're never going to be exceeded by published characters then they're not really benchmarks, IMO.

[Trebuchet]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

The problem stems from the benchmarks. If 31+ is superhuman then where are all the superhuman characters in the CU? Where's the Spider-mans and Nightcrawlers? They exist in the genre but not in the CU.

 

And it's not just the dex benchmark. 51 is the threshold for superhuman intelligence yet there's only one character with a 50 and only 2 with a 35 or higher. Surely there are characters who have superhuman intelligence? When you set your benchmarks so high that they're never going to be exceeded by published characters then they're not really benchmarks, IMO.

I have to agree. How can something be defined as superhuman when hardly anyone who is superhuman has it? True, in the comics many supers don't have truly superhuman characteristics - they're really just very athletic and highly practiced and/or trained.

 

I think a major part of the problem was that by defining what is Human Characteristic Maxima the Hero system makes players think that anything above those numbers is superhuman and anything below it isn't when the truth is the line is much more blurred. Most people watching Bruce Lee fight would consider his abilities superhuman when we know of course that he really wasn't. Even though the rules say it takes a 30+ STR to be superhuman, a 10-year-old boy with a 15 STR could reasonably be considered superhuman because a normal child of that age would probably have a STR in the 0 - 3 range. Being more than twice as strong as an average man would certainly make that boy superhuman in comparison to his peers and even most adults.

 

Personally, I prefer to ignore HCM because it's really useful only as a cap. If you want something more freewheeling, just allow the numbers to fall where they may. Group concensus is probably a better meter than a hard and fast rule.

[Clonus]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

The problem stems from the benchmarks. If 31+ is superhuman then where are all the superhuman characters in the CU? Where's the Spider-mans and Nightcrawlers? They exist in the genre but not in the CU.

 

The thing is, Spider-Man's dexterity really is only marginally better than Cap's. He's fast but his ability to connect and avoid being tagged just doesn't radically outclass Cap. Same thing with Nightcrawler. His acrobatics are over-the-top, but his fighting ability is nothing special for an agile character.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Something else to consider...

 

Instead of asking the question whether a character having a 31+ DEX qualifies as 'super' we should be asking what would happen to the character if hit with a 'super-power-removal-ray'*. Some 'super' characters might have less than a 30 DEX but without superpowers they might also have less than around 15-20 DEX since anything above that is due to their powers rather than training.

 

Superman with powers should have a higher DEX than Batman. Under a red sun he would not. The same principle has been applied in comics on numberous occasions. Some uber-powerful entities appear who can remove Flash's powers from him on a whim. The effect is only different because Flash's HERO stats for DEX and SPD did not take any Limitation unlike Superman's.

 

* Stating out such a device/ability for used in a game really depends on subdividing the characteristics on all characters with super powers that might affect those characteristics. Not easy by any means.

[Clonus]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

 

Superman with powers should have a higher DEX than Batman.

 

He doesn't, though. Can't dodge to save his life, as he proved when he needed to dodge to save his life. Jimmy Olson once took him out by throwing a rock at his head.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

He doesn't' date=' though. Can't dodge to save his life, as he proved when he needed to dodge to save his life. Jimmy Olson once took him out by throwing a rock at his head.[/quote']

 

And Superman had powers at the time and actually 'tried' to dodge? Remember, he thinks of himself as being virtually invulnerable (pysch lim). He usually doesn't bother to dodge bullets either. It's usually because he doesn't care.

[Spidey88]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

The thing is, Spider-Man's dexterity really is only marginally better than Cap's. He's fast but his ability to connect and avoid being tagged just doesn't radically outclass Cap. Same thing with Nightcrawler. His acrobatics are over-the-top, but his fighting ability is nothing special for an agile character.

 

Spider-Man's ability to avoid being tagged not outclassing Cap's (or anyone else short of the Flash)? Heresy!

 

To be honest, Clonus, I personally thinks that Spider-Man and Nightcrawler's base OCV and DCV would be a couple notches above Cap's, but Cap closes that gap by having gobs of CSLs. Of course, NC's likely got "+ X DCV, RSR: Acrobatics", and Spidey's probably got the same (plus even more that needs a Danger sense roll) - though Cap's probably got a little extra DCV of that type too.

 

So, offensively, Cap's probably got the edge (OCV-wise, at least), but NC and esp. Spidey are at least a couple steps ahead DCV-wise - so it kind of balances out on those occasions when they fight each other. Whenever Spider-Man fights someone who doesn't have Cap's agility and training (or even superior qualities in at least some aspect of either, eg. Punisher's gun skills), he absolutely walks all over them as far as OCV/DCV are concerned.

 

My personal feeling, at least by my campaign standards and assumptions about the characters:

 

Cap: DEX 27-33 (and at least 4 levels with all combat)

 

NC: DEX 33-38

 

Spider-Man: DEX 35-40

 

This is what I use as a mental yardstick, anyway. I'm comfortable with these guys being more agile than the published CU characters, since agility is a major portion of these guys' schticks, and they're all very experienced heroes - while it certainly can be done, I'd have a hard time building a version of even Nightcrawler (the lowest-point character of the three, IMHO) on just 200 +150 disads (probably more like 300-350 pts. plus 150 disads). My writeup of Spider-Man is something like 634 points + 150 disads, but I was very thorough, with no reading between the lines - everything pertinent was written up. If I was using less points, his DEX would naturally be lower for cost effectiveness - but I have no issues assigning a DEX of 39 to a guy who's practically the avatar of agility. That's what feels right to me, even if no published characters quite match up. He's always going to be my high-end benchmark, barring individuals with godlike power.

 

Vector, at a similar point level, has DEX 36 - so that's in the same league. I think we just haven't seen more guys so far whose schtick is super-agility and have those kind of points to work with - budget factors in as much as genre comparisons! I sort of ignore the listed standards for "what is superhuman" and "what isn't superhuman" and go with my gut.

 

On a related note, I have a really hard accepting someone with an INT of 50 as "Legendary" but not superhuman. To me, those are so high as to be beyond rational comprehension. I'd put Spidey at the cliched 23, Tony Stark at 25 or possibly a little higher, Doctor Doom at 30-33. and Reed Richards at 35. Past that feels too high to run properly. I don't know how I'd ever run Telios - how do you deal with someone that's 100 steps ahead of everyone else, and probably beyond any normal concerns and thought patterns? It's difficult to wrap my head around how to play a character exponentially smarter than yourself.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I have to say my jaw hits the table when I hear DEXes range from 30 - 50. 50!?! You gonna drop 120 in just DEX!?!

 

To my mind, that is freakishly high. Of course, I suppose if you are playing Galactic Champions or something it's not too bad. Still, 50? EEP!

 

A natural OCV/DCV of 17. I'd imagine at that point you'd probably have a couple of levels too. 7 Mooks? I put my 9 levels into OCV and SWEEEEEEEEEP!

 

 

if that's your only power except some running it makes a fairly interesting combo actually. need a decent recovery to keep up. My 50 is the fastest woman in the world , Silver Streak,and that's her thing. Not much use against Grond but great for those flash like scenes.

[Clonus]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

And Superman had powers at the time and actually 'tried' to dodge?

 

I'm not talking about actually trying to dodge but just Supe's usual day to day DCV, which totally tanks. And yes, Superman had powers when Jimmy Olsen knocked him out with a thrown rock. (It was a rock from Kandor.)

[Balabanto]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I have a different theory. If your stats are above 20, you are NO LONGER A NORMAL, with the exception of intelligence, unless you pay the 2x cost for being above normal Max.

 

I regulate stats heavily in my game because high end skill rolls and what you can achieve with them are retarded. It's not just DEX here, it's everything else. Do you realize that if you allow DEX above 30 and allow the rules in the book, but don't allow people to freely buy Defense Maneuver IV, that +3 OCV for any character with acrobatics is virtually guaranteed? (Assuming that players remember the rule)

 

In most games, a spontaneous +3 OCV is ridiculous. If the DCV curve is so high that you NEED that +3 OCV to hit then every character without Defense Maneuver IV is doomed. This is why I regulate everything so heavily and have written down rules for virtually everything.

[bwdemon]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Still doesn't fix the problem' date=' because it still becomes cheaper for everyone to invest in 20pts of neo-DEX instead of putting points into SPD. If the point was to reduce DEX abuse by reducing it's ulitlity, this won't work. You'd have to uncouple SPD and DEX entirely to make this system work and say everyone started with base SPD of 1.[/quote']

 

Nothing wrong with that. I think we've got a workable system here, but I would propose a couple more changes...

 

DEX: base = 10, cost = 1:1

SPD: base = 2, not connected to DEX

CV: base = 0, not connected to DEX or EGO

 

What do you think?

[lapsedgamer]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Spider-Man's ability to avoid being tagged not outclassing Cap's (or anyone else short of the Flash)? Heresy!

 

To be honest, Clonus, I personally thinks that Spider-Man and Nightcrawler's base OCV and DCV would be a couple notches above Cap's, but Cap closes that gap by having gobs of CSLs. Of course, NC's likely got "+ X DCV, RSR: Acrobatics", and Spidey's probably got the same (plus even more that needs a Danger sense roll) - though Cap's probably got a little extra DCV of that type too.

 

So, offensively, Cap's probably got the edge (OCV-wise, at least), but NC and esp. Spidey are at least a couple steps ahead DCV-wise - so it kind of balances out on those occasions when they fight each other. Whenever Spider-Man fights someone who doesn't have Cap's agility and training (or even superior qualities in at least some aspect of either, eg. Punisher's gun skills), he absolutely walks all over them as far as OCV/DCV are concerned.

 

My personal feeling, at least by my campaign standards and assumptions about the characters:

 

Cap: DEX 27-33 (and at least 4 levels with all combat)

 

NC: DEX 33-38

 

Spider-Man: DEX 35-40

 

This is what I use as a mental yardstick, anyway. I'm comfortable with these guys being more agile than the published CU characters, since agility is a major portion of these guys' schticks, and they're all very experienced heroes - while it certainly can be done, I'd have a hard time building a version of even Nightcrawler (the lowest-point character of the three, IMHO) on just 200 +150 disads (probably more like 300-350 pts. plus 150 disads). My writeup of Spider-Man is something like 634 points + 150 disads, but I was very thorough, with no reading between the lines - everything pertinent was written up. If I was using less points, his DEX would naturally be lower for cost effectiveness - but I have no issues assigning a DEX of 39 to a guy who's practically the avatar of agility. That's what feels right to me, even if no published characters quite match up. He's always going to be my high-end benchmark, barring individuals with godlike power. snip....

 

I agree with your numbers, but I'm more at the low end of the spectrum you listed for each character. I'm also not one of those people who is upset about the new edition's decision to build starting character on 350+ points. I feel like you can actually model a lot of published characters better in that point range. You just have to keep an eye on the powergamers. More points to me means more background skills and perks and more variations on your power's special effect at the same levels, not godlike power.

[UltraRob]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Nothing wrong with that. I think we've got a workable system here, but I would propose a couple more changes...

 

DEX: base = 10, cost = 1:1

SPD: base = 2, not connected to DEX

CV: base = 0, not connected to DEX or EGO

 

What do you think?

 

I think it would work 100%. It would be interesting to see what numbers like this would look-like or result-in in most campaigns, though. I could still see people buying the DEX up to get initiative, but that's also reasonable. As you say, DEX is now just like INT.

 

Rob

[Clonus]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Nothing wrong with that. I think we've got a workable system here, but I would propose a couple more changes...

 

DEX: base = 10, cost = 1:1

SPD: base = 2, not connected to DEX

CV: base = 0, not connected to DEX or EGO

 

What do you think?

 

Too extreme for me. I want DEX to have some connection to physical combat and I wouldn't be comfortable with the default CV being 0.

[Vondy]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Most of the Freedom Patrol had 16-20 Dex and 4 Spd, but Dex there were three characters who had Dex oriented concepts, and they weighed in at 24/5, 27/5, and 30/5 (but also Rapid Attack and TWF). The other characters, however, tended to be power-centric and had AoE and unusual attacks that more than made up for the disparity. It should be noted, however, that the game was one part pulp, one part atomic horror, one part espionage, and one part supers - so it wasn't really a pure supers game. It was more iron age in terms of power, but pulpy bronze in terms of tone. Most goons, including highly trained ones, tended to have Dex 10-14 and Spd 3, but the "powered" opposition (e.g., henchmen and masterminds) tended to fall into the same league as the heroes.

[Trebuchet]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I agree with your numbers' date=' but I'm more at the low end of the spectrum you listed for each character. I'm also not one of those people who is upset about the new edition's decision to build starting character on 350+ points. I feel like you can actually model a lot of published characters better in that point range. You just have to keep an eye on the powergamers. More points to me means more background skills and perks and more variations on your power's special effect at the same levels, not godlike power.[/quote']When we converted our campaign from 4th to 5th Edition and added the extra 100 CP to existing characters, that was the result we got too. More background skills, perks, contacts, and a broader rather than more powerful range of powers.

 

It helped that several of us were powergamers in our misguided youths and after we found religion we determined not to play in that kind of environment again.

[bwdemon]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

Too extreme for me. I want DEX to have some connection to physical combat and I wouldn't be comfortable with the default CV being 0.

 

DEX shouldn't have a connection to combat. The ability to flip a coin through your fingers or shuffle a deck of cards impressively isn't going to help you land or avoid a punch. No character is quick to act absent high SPD, so all DEX covers is the grace of your movement and the nimbleness of your fingers.

 

On the other hand, I can see how you might not be comfortable with 0 DCV as the standard. Some people are below average, after all. That means either that the average person buys a couple CSLs or you can go negative in CV. I'm fine with negative numbers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

I have a different theory. If your stats are above 20' date=' you are NO LONGER A NORMAL, with the exception of intelligence, unless you pay the 2x cost for being above normal Max.[/quote']

 

Why should Intelligence be the exception? It seems no more a stretch to call enhanced intelligence "no longer normal" than to call a 23 STR freakishly high.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX levels in your campaign.

 

DEX shouldn't have a connection to combat. The ability to flip a coin through your fingers or shuffle a deck of cards impressively isn't going to help you land or avoid a punch. No character is quick to act absent high SPD' date=' so all DEX covers is the grace of your movement and the nimbleness of your fingers.[/quote']

 

Being a naturally skilled gymnast, or an agile basketball player, seems like it could translate into a combat advantage. Great hand-eye coordination would seem to translate into being a better shot with a handgun (or an energy beam).