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Steve

Firewalling Mental Attacks

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Here's an evil thought. How would a mentalist go about "firewalling" behind another mind while making mental attacks, so that the other mind gets hit with any counter-attacks? :eg:

 

Consider Mind Scan, which opens up a two-way pathway for mental battles. How could a wily mentalist who opens up a mental link with another mentalist route it through another mind? Usable By Others?

 

Or consider a mentalist who attacks someone who has a Mental-based Damage Shield. Is there a way to build an attack to route through another, to let that person get blasted by the Damage Shielded attack response?

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

Indirect would allow the mental attack to appear as if it were originating from another person.

 

No, Indirect specifically says that it is still obvious that the character is the source of the power. (5ER p260)

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

I thought about Indirect, but I wasn't sure if it would accomplish what I was looking at.

 

Example: Mentalist M attacks Target T through Proxy P with Mind Scan-targeted Ego Blasts. Now even though M and T are the ones fighting, M's attacks hit T but T's attacks at M actually hit P (the firewall) instead.

 

In a sense, P is being used to block and soak up attacks with his own mind, taking the hit for M. Now a villain could do this with bystander P, using P as an involuntary mental shield.

 

Hmm, maybe an Ablative form of Mental Defense is one approach to this, requiring another person to act as the source of the Mental Defense, but getting no Mental Defense themself. As attacks roll in and batter poor P's mind into mush, his mind provides less cover.

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

I'm not sure if this is possible using the standard rules, but I can try...

 

Combine Indirect with IPE to make your Mental Attack appear to come from someone else's head.

 

or...

 

Use TK BOECV to "grab and control" someone's mind in the same way a martial artist could grab and control a target to act as a shield.

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

Example: Mentalist M attacks Target T through Proxy P with Mind Scan-targeted Ego Blasts. Now even though M and T are the ones fighting' date=' [b']M[/b]'s attacks hit T but T's attacks at M actually hit P (the firewall) instead.

 

In a sense, P is being used to block and soak up attacks with his own mind, taking the hit for M. Now a villain could do this with bystander P, using P as an involuntary mental shield.

Interesting idea. I'd call it UAA - You're *forcing* someone else to make the attacks for you. This doesn't prevent T from eventually figuring out that M is the one he needs to hit, nor does it stop T from just attacking M normally. I've done something like this before with non-mental attacks: EB UAA - forces a EB coming from someone else to strike at a third person. "Why did you shoot me?" "I didn't! I swear!" "It came from your blaster!" "It must have gone off by itself!" "Yeah, right!"

 

In the case of T having a mental Damage Shield, you could rule that when P attacks T (M is in control of the UAA power), M takes the damage. Since M is in mental contact with P, if the DS was Sticky, M would also take the damage.

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

indirect IPE would make someone else seem like they were using the powers I think. Our group has a joke about using automatons as firewalls because they are immune to mental powers. So if you want to go that way, get mental powers Useable by Other, and then have a slavishly loyal automaton who will use the powers for you and be immune to repercussions

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

Easiest way to do it is a Multiple Power Attack with a Mental Illusion, "He attacked you" and whatever other attack power you want to stack on. It's a fairly trivial illusion and shouldn't require more than an EGO + 10.

 

More complicated would be IPE on your attack power and Images versus Mental Senses to pass the blame onto someone nearby; that has the advantage of fooling observers as well, at least for a while.

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

I thought about Indirect, but I wasn't sure if it would accomplish what I was looking at.

 

Example: Mentalist M attacks Target T through Proxy P with Mind Scan-targeted Ego Blasts. Now even though M and T are the ones fighting, M's attacks hit T but T's attacks at M actually hit P (the firewall) instead.

 

In a sense, P is being used to block and soak up attacks with his own mind, taking the hit for M. Now a villain could do this with bystander P, using P as an involuntary mental shield.

 

Hmm, maybe an Ablative form of Mental Defense is one approach to this, requiring another person to act as the source of the Mental Defense, but getting no Mental Defense themself. As attacks roll in and batter poor P's mind into mush, his mind provides less cover.

 

Well, first of all, the M is using Mind Scan to target the T correct?

If this is the case, then all the M needs is Images to Mental Sense group, center it on the area of the P and when T attempts to use Mental Awareness to locate M, the Images to Mental Sense group pegs P and T should mistakenly counterattack the wrong person, failing a perception roll.

 

Thats one method. I'll see if I can think of more...

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

Mental Missile Deflection?

This seems to be the closest thing to a working game mechanic. Perhaps you could work out with the GM a BOECV Missile Reflection.

 

Otherwise, a Mental Sense Invisibility in conjunction with a Mental Sense Images (and Invisible Attacks) may do the trick.

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

IPE, indirect and even invisibility do not prevent the target knowing who is attacking them, even if they cannot necessarily target right back.

 

You could, for certain mental attacks, like MC or MI include instructions that the attack is coming from another source but Phil Fleischmann's UAA suggestion is probably the most straightforward way of actually accomplishing this.

 

Other than that you need a power that fools the T, like a linked MI.

 

Interesting idea :thumbup:

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

IPE' date=' indirect and even invisibility do not prevent the target knowing who is attacking them, even if they cannot necessarily target right back.[/quote']

 

It is my understanding that IPE does prevent the target from knowing who is attacking him with a mental power, and can even at the double cost level prevent him from knowing he is under attack at all. Or has the rule changed since I last checked?

 

And I still say the easiest way to do it is to combine IPE with a Mental Illusion or Images. ;)

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

A better question to ask is: how to make ANY attack appear to originate from SOMEONE ELSE.

 

The mental part is just window dressing.

 

 

The answers are (among others):

 

A) AoE Images large enough to include the target and the patsy.

B) MPA'd Mental Illusion.

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

Mental Missile Deflection?

 

Not quite going to work, but if you built all your mental powers with a 1 phase activation delay then had mental power missile reflection UAA, to make the person you targetted last phase reflect the attack at the true target this phase it would work.

 

Of course that is ridiculously complicated. I like it :thumbup:

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

No' date=' Indirect specifically says that it is still obvious that the character is the source of the power. (5ER p260)[/quote']

 

...which doesn't make a lot of sense really, if the indirect attack can start from anywhere and go in any direction. Maybe if you combine it with source IPE.....?

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

...which doesn't make a lot of sense really' date=' if the indirect attack can start from anywhere and go in any direction. Maybe if you combine it with source IPE.....?[/quote']

 

With Full IPE, you shouldn't need to worry about anyone knowing you were the source of the attack in the first place.

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

...which doesn't make a lot of sense really' date=' if the indirect attack can start from anywhere and go in any direction. Maybe if you combine it with source IPE.....?[/quote']

 

That is kind of the point. Indirect isn't supposed to be another way of hiding who is throwing the attack. It is supposed to be a way to simply have the attack come from a different direction. If you want to hide the fact that you threw the attack you need to go with IPE(source) at least.

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

With Full IPE' date=' you shouldn't need to worry about anyone knowing you were the source of the attack in the first place.[/quote']

 

Correct, that is the at least one of the points of IPE.

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Re: Firewalling Mental Attacks

 

Not quite going to work, but if you built all your mental powers with a 1 phase activation delay then had mental power missile reflection UAA, to make the person you targetted last phase reflect the attack at the true target this phase it would work.

 

Of course that is ridiculously complicated. I like it :thumbup:

 

Interesting approach, you basically use the proxy as a bounce point on a mental attack.

 

I just suddenly had this notion (which might not be possible to build in Hero :eek:). Since my understanding of mental attacks is that they require LOS or Mind Scan to lock on to the target, imagine using an intermediary standing at a corner to attack someone around the corner with a mental attack (ie bouncing it off them to hit the other). You can bounce an Energy Blast. Could you bounce a mental attack to hit someone else? :confused:

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