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ThothAmon

Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

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I'm doing some prepwork for a Victorian HERO campaign. I have my copies of Horror Hero, Western Hero, Justice Inc, Danger International, Pulp Hero, Edge Of The Sword and the NRA Pistols manuals to hand.

 

Nevertheless, statting out firearms from 1850 onwards is proving to be a bit of a nightmare for a number of reasons.

 

  1. Western Hero lacks variation in firearms types, although it does have a useful rule-of-thumb for differentiating between cap-and-ball and cartridge firearms.
  2. Horror Hero Victorian firearms fall into line with the Justice Inc and 4th Edition stats in general but again lack certain types e.g. European weapons.
  3. Pulp Hero and 5th Edition show an alarming tendency to raise weapon damages to seemingly extreme levels e.g. the .45 calibre Colt Single Action Army black powder cartridge pistol is given the same damage rating as a modern .45 ACP Colt M1911, completely contrary to the suggestions in Western Hero. Have any other long-term GMs noticed this issue with 5th Edition?

I've done a fair bit of web trawling and found some useful background articles but nothing for HERO. Is there a consistent reference for Victorian era firearms? Or will it be a DIY job?

 

Pointers to forum topics I may have missed or helpful discussion would be most appreciated. I'd be especially intererested to hear from anyone else who has GMed this genre and perhaps dealt with these issues.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Gold Rush Games has a mathematically formula to determine damage based on the ammunition if you are interested. There is also a conversion for Action! System damage to Hero System damage, but I don't have it on me currently, but should be able to give it to you later today.

 

Here is the data: http://www.goldrushgames.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=518

 

Also, it just so happens that I'm working on a Western Hero game right now and will be using this information as well so I'll be interested in comments to this thread.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

I have often thought of getting a copy of Guns!Guns!Guns! which supposedly covers the time period and has a key for translating into HERO (I am guessing 4th editions).

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

I have some gun stuff I did in 4th ed stats (don't like what 5th did to the stats), I'll see if I can dig them up and post them. Assume you are looking for 1880-1900 weapons?

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Period is 1886 onwards but any info I can get would be appreciated Toadmaster. Rep is on its way out to those who have replied so far.

 

I suspect I'll be using G3G to work up my own weapons table from 1840 onwards and comparing the results with whatever I can grokk from elsewhere.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

How much difference would there really be in the various firearms? Pretty much going to be between 3 and 6 damage classes, right?

 

Is there any place where we can find details on the various flintlock, matchlock, wheellock, canon, blunderbuss, etc. weapons of the Black Powder Age?

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Is there any place where we can find details on the various flintlock, matchlock, wheellock, canon, blunderbuss, etc. weapons of the Black Powder Age?

 

Fantasy Hero has some guidelines that any semi-creative GM can use as a springboard to cover basically all types of black powder sidearms. Gotta do artillery on your own.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Gold Rush Games has a mathematically formula to determine damage based on the ammunition if you are interested. There is also a conversion for Action! System damage to Hero System damage, but I don't have it on me currently, but should be able to give it to you later today.

 

Here is the data: http://www.goldrushgames.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=518

 

"The board administrator requires all members to log in"

 

So, no help there, I'm afraid. :mad:

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

"The board administrator requires all members to log in"

 

So, no help there, I'm afraid. :mad:

We activated that due to the amount of spamming that was going on. I'll try to remember to copy/paste the info over here when I get a chance.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

I actually created a prefab with a variety of Victorian-era British, German, French, and American rifles and pistols. There's also a bayonet and a bowie knife in there. I didn't spend much time on all the classic western weapons because it was a European game and people were producing bolt-action rifles at the end of the century.

 

You can find the prefab here.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

We activated that due to the amount of spamming that was going on. I'll try to remember to copy/paste the info over here when I get a chance.

Ok, remember this is for the Action! System which is very similar to Hero, but still requires a conversion (I'll post that later.)

 

Using the formula for determining A!S damage from real-world gun stats (based on the cartridge being fired), I have the following list.

 

Please note, I do not have the complete stats for each gun, only the damage, calculated from the muzzle velocity, projectile weight, etc.

 

Enjoy!

 

Ammunition/Cartridge

(by projectile diameter)

 

Cartridge (A!d6)

.17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (HMR) (3d6)

.17 Hornady V-Max (5d6+2)

.17 Mach IV (6d6)

.17 Remington (6d6)

.22 BB Cap (1d6)

.22 Hyper Velocity (2d6+2)

.22 Long (1d6)

.22 Long Rifle (2d6)

.22 Long Rifle HVHP (2d6)

.22 Long Rifle Subsonic HP (1d6+2)

.22 Short (1d6)

.22 Short HP (1d6+2)

.22 Short Solid (1d6+2)

5.45mm M1974 USSR (6d6)

.22 Hornet (4d6+2)

.22 Remington Jet (3d6)

.218 Bee (3d6)

.219 Zipper (6d6)

.22 WMR (3d6)

.22 WRF (2+2)

.22 WRF Magnum (3d6)

.220 Swift (7d6)

.221 Remington Fireball (5d6)

.222 Remington (6d6)

.22-250 (6d6)

.22-250 Remington (7d6+2)

.223 Remington (5.56 mm) (6d6)

5.6mm x57 RWS (.224) (7d6+2)

5.75mm Velo Dog (1d6+2)

.243 Winchester (7d6+2)

6mm PPC (6d6+2)

6mm Remington (8d6)

6mm x45 (6mm-223) (6d6)

6mm-223 (6x45) (6d6)

.244 H&H Magnum (9d6)

.25 ACP (1d6+2)

6.5mm Arisaka (CP2020) (6d6+2)

.25-06 Remington (8d6+2)

.25-20 Winchester (3d6)

.257 Roberts (7d6)

6.5mm Dutch (6d6+2)

6.5mm Mauser (7d6)

6.5mm x68 (9d6)

6.5mm Italian (6+2)

7mm Remington (9d6)

.270 Winchester (8d6)

7mm Nambu (1d6+2)

.280 Remington (8d6+2)

7mm Mauser (7d6+2)

7mm Remington Magnum (9d6+2)

7mm x57 Mauser (.275 Rigby) (8d6)

7mm-08 Remington (0)

.22 CB Cap (1d6)

7.62mm Nagant (1d6+2)

.30-30-150 (7d6)

.30-30-170 (6d6+2)

.303 Savage (6d6+2)

.32 ACP (7.65mm Browning) (1d6+2)

7.5mm French (7d6)

.30 Luger (2d6+2)

.30 US Carbine (4d6+2)

.300 H&H Super 30 (8d6+2)

.300 Weatherby Magnum (8d6+2)

.300 Whisper (3d6)

.300 Winchester Magnum (9d6)

.30-06 (7d6)

.30-06 Springfield (8d6)

.30-30 (6d6)

.30-30 Winchester (7d6)

.308 Winchester (7.62 mm) (8d6)

7.5mm Swiss Ordnance (pistol) (2d6+2)

7.5mm Swiss (7d6+2)

7.62mm Nagant (2d6+2)

7.62mm NATO (7d6)

7.62mm x54R (Dragunov) (8d6)

7.63mm Mauser (2d6+2)

7.63mm Mauser (3d6)

7.65mm Long (2d6)

7.65mm Luger (2d6+2)

.32 ACP (1d6+2)

.32 S&W (1d6+2)

7.65mm Argentine Mauser (7d6)

7.7mm Rimless Japanese (7d6)

.303 British (7d6+2)

7.62mm x39 Soviet (6d6)

.32 H&R Magnum (1d6+1d6d6)

.32 Long Colt (1d6+2)

.32 S&W Long (1d6+2)

.32 S&W Long (4" brl) (4d6)

.32-20 Winchester (3d6)

.32-20-100 (Pistol) (2d6+2)

.32-20-100 (Rifle) (3d6)

.32-40-200 (3d6)

.32 Short Colt (1d6)

8mm Japanese (2d6)

7.92mm Intermediate (5d6)

7.92mm Mauser (7d6)

7.92mm Patrone 318 (13d6)

8mm Austrian (7d6)

8mm French Ordnance (1d6+2)

8mm x68 (9d6)

8mm Lebel (7d6+2)

.333 Rimless Nitro Express (8d6)

.338 Winchester Magnum (9d6)

.35 Winchester (7d6)

.350 Remington Magnum (7d6+2)

.357 SIG (3d6)

.38 Auto (ACP) (2d6+2)

.380 (9mm x17) (2d6)

.380 ACP (7d6)

.38-40 (5d6)

.38-55 (4d6)

9mm +P (3d6)

9mm Browning Long (2d6)

9mm Glisenti (2d6+2)

9mm Luger (9mm x19) (2d6+2)

9mm Police (2d6)

9mm x17 (.380) (2d6)

.356 TSW (3d6)

.38 Colt Auto (2d6+2)

.38 Super (3d6)

9mm Para +P (3d6)

9mm Para +P+ (3d6)

9mm Parabellum (2d6+2)

9mm x21 (2d6+2)

.357 Magnum (rifle) (3d6)

.357 Magnum 125gr (pistol) (3d6+2)

.357 Magnum 158gr (pistol) (4d6+2)

.357 Maximum (3d6+2)

.38 Long Colt (2d6)

.38 Short Colt (2d6)

.38 Special (2d6)

.38 Special +P (2d6)

.38 Special +P+ (2d6+2)

.38-55-266 (4d6)

.35 Remington (5d6+2)

.358 Norma Magnum (9d6)

.38 S&W (2d6)

.360 No. 2 Nitro Express (8d6)

.38 S&W 145gr 1877 (2d6)

9mm Makarov (2d6)

9.3mm x74R (8d6)

9.3mm x74 (8d6)

.369 Purdey Nitro Epxress (8d6)

.369 Rigby Nitro Express (8d6)

.36 ball (black powder) (2d6)

.375 Flanged Magnum Nitro Express (8d6+2)

.375 Flanged Nitro Express (6d6+2)

.375 H&H Magnum (8d6+2)

.375 Winchester (6d6)

.378 Weatherby Magnum (9d6+2)

.38-40 (3d6)

.40 S&W (3d6)

.400 Cor-Bon (2d6+2)

10mm (3d6+2)

10mm Auto (3d6)

10mm Auto subsonic (2d6+2)

.40-100 (5d6+2)

.40-90 (5d6+2)

10.4mm x38R Swiss Vetterli (2d6+2)

.41 Action Express (2d6+2)

.41 Magnum (3d6)

.41 Remington Magnum (4d6)

.416 Remington Magnum (9d6+2)

.416 Rigby (9d6+2)

.416 Weatherby Magnum (10d6+2)

.404 Jeffery. (8d6+2)

.44-40 Winchester (3d6)

.44 Auto Mag (4d6)

.44 Henry Flat (3d6)

.44 Remington Magnum (5d6)

.44 Russian (2d6)

.44 Special (2d6)

.44-100 (6d6)

.444 Marlin (6d6+2)

.44-40 (Pistol) (2d6+2)

.44-40 (Rifle) (3d6+2)

.44 Magnum (3d6)

.44 Special (2d6)

.440 Cor-Bon (5d6)

.445 Supermag (4d6)

.44 Colt (2d6)

.44 Henry Flat (3d6)

.44-90-550 (5d6+2)

11mm Vickers (5d6)

.44-77-365 (5d6)

.44-90-520 Sharps (5d6+2)

.45 ball (ML) 100m (4d6)

.45 ball (ML) 10m (5d6)

.45 ball (ML) 50m (4d6+2)

.45 Winchester Magnum (3d6+2)

.45 ACP (2d6+2)

.45 ACP +P (3d6)

.45 Colt (2d6+2)

.45 Super (3d6)

.454 Casull (4d6+2)

.44 ball (black powder) (3d6)

.454 Casull (5d6+2)

.450 Martini Henry (5d6)

.45-110-550 (6d6)

.45-120-500 (6d6+2)

.45-120-550 (6d6+2)

.455 Webley Revolver Mk II (2d6)

.455 Webley & Scott (2d6)

.45-75 (5d6)

.45 Colt 1876 (in pistol) (2d6+2)

.45 Colt 1876 (in rifle) (4d6+2)

.45 Schofield (2d6)

.450 Marlin 250gr Flat Nose (7d6)

.450 Marlin 300/400gr. Flat Point (7d6+2)

.450 Nitro Express (8d6+2)

.450 Watts Magnum (10d6)

.45-100 (6d6)

.45-70 (5d6)

.45-70 (55 gr) (5d6)

.45-70 Government (5d6)

.45-70 Sharps (5d6)

.45-70-350 Winch (5d6)

.458 Lott (8d6+2)

.458 Winchester Magnum (9d6)

.458 Winchester Magnum (7d6)

.460 Weatherby Magnum (10d6)

.475 Nitro Express (8d6+2)

.50 Action Express (4d6+2)

.50 ball (black powder) (4d6)

.50 S&W Mag 275gr (5d6)

.50 S&W Mag 400gr JSP (6d6)

.505 Gibbs (9d6+2)

.500 Nitro Express (8d6)

.50 BMG (13d6+2)

13mm T.u.F. (13d6)

.50-70-425 (4d6+2)

.50-70-450 (4d6+2)

.54 ball (black powder) (5d6)

.55 Boys (13d6+2)

.50-55-430 Carbine (4d6+2)

.50-70-450 Musket (4d6+2)

.50-90 Sharps (5d6)

.58 ball (black powder) (5d6)

20mm M50 (22d6)

20mm M55A1TP (20d6)

20mm Phalanx (14d6+2)

20mm Soviet HEI (13d6)

.577 Nitro Express (9d6)

.577 Snider (4d6+2)

.585 Nyati (6d6+2)

15mm Besa (15d6)

.600 Nitro Express (9d6)

.69 ball (black powder) (4d6+2)

.75 ball (black powder) (4d6)

20mm /70 (Bofors) (17d6)

8mm Gasser (2d6)

8mm Lebel (pistol) (2d6)

8mm Steyr (2d6+2)

9mm Steyr (2d6+2)

9mm x18 Ultra (Police) (2d6)

 

Here's the formula:

 

(Square root of ((FP x .9996) / PD)) / 7.32

 

FP: Foot pounds of energy. To calculate foot pounds, multiply the weight of the projectile (in grains) times the muzzle velocity of the projectile (in feet per second or "fps") squared. Formula: (Wt. x FPS x FPS) / 450,240

 

PD: The true diameter of the projectile, in centimeters (e.g., a .22 cal. round is listed as .559 because .22 x 2.45 = .559). Note: Some bullets have a true diameter that differs from the "caliber" (e.g., a .380 ACP has a diameter of .355). Formula: Cal. x 2.45

 

The whole number of the result is the number of full dice of damage in Action! System. Any decimal remainder of .4 to .7 adds +2 damage; a decimal remainder of .8 or .9 increases the damage to the next full die (e.g., a result of 3.1 = 3d6 damage; 3.5 = 3d6+2; 3.9 = 4d6).

 

Example: We'll look at a fictional .380 ACP semi-auto handgun firing 82 grain ammunition that registers a muzzle velocity of 1,187 feet per second when fired. The .380 round has a "true" diameter of .355, so we'll use that in the calculations.

 

A projectile weighing 82 grains with a muzzle velocity of 1187 (fps) delivers 256.608 foot pounds of energy (we'll round to 257).

 

Now I'll go through the calculations one step at a time:

 

(Sq.rt of ((257 x .9996) / .355)) / 7.32 =

 

(Sq.rt of (256.89 / .355)) / 7.32 =

 

(Sq.rt of 723.654) / 7.32 =

 

26.90 / 7.32 =

 

3.6749, which rounds to 3.7 =

 

3d6+2 damage in Action System.

 

NOTE: The Action! System uses LIF (Life Points) as a reflection of how much actual physical damage a character can suffer before dying.

 

In the case of Action! System, the damage for a weapon represents the amount of damage it would inflict based on its ability to kill an average human being outright (based on a character with a HTL and WIL of 3, and thus 15 LIF).

 

The damage is calculated based on the amount of energy a weapon can transfer to its target. For firearms, that energy is calculated based on the mass and velocity of the projectile, using published statistics for firearms such as FPS (velocity in feet per second), the caliber and weight of the projectile, which gives a certain number of "foot pounds" of energy. These are converted to joules, given a rating, which is then converted to A!S damage dice.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

I found The Knuckleduster Firearms Shop to be a good resource for weapons of that age. It lists reliability, damage, draw speed, rate of fire and concealment using a seven point scale. Under each entry is also some interesting trivia about the weapon, four range categories, and weapon quirks.

 

The only reason I haven't done a complete conversion to HERO is that none of the players or GMs I know would use the information.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Ok, to convert Action! damage to Hero damage you simply divide the applicable DC by 3.

 

EX: The .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (HMR) (3d6) is 9 DC. 9/3 = 3 DC = 1d6K

 

NOTE: This is only for converting to killing damage. Normal damage in Action! = the same damage in Hero.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Something that few lists of guns 'n ammo tend to address, and which might be worth considering, is that shooting before the days of smokeless powder created a LOT of smoke. If you're in confined quarters (like a bar, or train carriage, or Victorian drawing room) and blazing away like mad, there's a pretty good chance you won't be able to see further than the end of your arm in no time flat.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

RPMiller: Thanks for the info. I may compare some of those numbers to what 3G3R (Guns! Guns! Guns!, 3rd edition revised) has.

 

cypar7: is that a book or a web site?

 

Fitz: good point!

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Basil: If I remember correctly, that data came right out of 3G. I'm not sure which edition though.

 

Fitz: I think I'm going to make a house rule using that for my Gunslingers and Greenhorns game on HeroCentral, thanks!

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Basil: If I remember correctly' date=' that data came right out of 3G. I'm not sure which edition though.[/quote']

Ah, OK. Thanks for telling me I don't have to do all that work. :winkgrin:

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

I found The Knuckleduster Firearms Shop to be a good resource for weapons of that age. It lists reliability, damage, draw speed, rate of fire and concealment using a seven point scale. Under each entry is also some interesting trivia about the weapon, four range categories, and weapon quirks.

 

The only reason I haven't done a complete conversion to HERO is that none of the players or GMs I know would use the information.

I just ordered two books from Knukleduster -- the Cowtown Creator and the Firearms Shop. I ordered directly from their website on Saturday and the package arrived on Monday. :eek:

 

Looked inside, Not a huge fan of the layout, but on a "glance through" (about an hour) at the Doc's office the information looked top notch.

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

How is the The Knuckleduster Cowtown Creator?

 

I've almost purchased in on several occasions, but can't justify the purchase of another book I won't use. Of course if we ever get a new Western HERO, I'll be sure to buy a few.

 

The website is http://www.knuckleduster.com/

 

They sell a good selection of western gaming items. The minis look very cool.

 

Bruce

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Believe me, I'd love to do a new Western Hero that would do for Western gaming what FH and PH do for Fantasy and Pulp. Unfortunately I just don't think the sales would come close to justifying the massive research burden -- even accounting for the fact that I've already got two supplements basically written (books I prepared for fun for Deadlands that weren't accepted or never quite completed).

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

How is the The Knuckleduster Cowtown Creator?

 

I've almost purchased in on several occasions, but can't justify the purchase of another book I won't use. Of course if we ever get a new Western HERO, I'll be sure to buy a few.

 

The website is http://www.knuckleduster.com/

 

They sell a good selection of western gaming items. The minis look very cool.

 

Bruce

They got 'em some down right nice stuff there. I know what my next two books are going to be! Thanks Publius and cypar7!! Those are going to come in handy for my Western Hero game. Rep to both ya's. :)

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Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

If HERO did publish another Western Hero, I doubt I could round up the players. Those times I have advertised at the local games I either get Deadlands fans or no reply at all. I've about this topic at length with other person interested in the genre in my group and we've come to the conclusion that people who like western films and books aren't the people that like to role play.

 

I know we won't have another Western Hero, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

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