Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

[RPMiller]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Well you could mosey on over to Hero Central and apply for my Western Heroes game, Gunslingers and Greenhorns, if you don't mind PbP games. It is still in the planning and design stage, but I have a fair amount of info up so far. I'll make a general announcement when it opens up for apps.

[Publius]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Cowtown Creator looks pretty good, I spent most of my time in the Doctor's office looking at it and found that it has a very nice level of detail on the cowboy setting generally, as well as some juicy details on stuff like how Prostitution works in the west and the cattle industry and that sort of thing. It points out where Hollywood has stretched things a bit (such as the 'typical' Sheriff office and the fact that the term "Bounty Hunter" was apparently unknown during the period -- "Man Hunter" was used instead). One nice ting is that it has some very rough maps of the buildings found in a western setting (some of which I will be digging my claws in and redrawing soon).

 

Since my first look-see, I have spent more time on the Firearms Shop which gives some nice detail on weapons (reload times, etc), there is a lot of wasted space due to layout (HERO spoils us with the depth of detail and space allocation), but I'm very happy with the purchase nonetheless and still found it a good value.

[RPMiller]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

SOLD!! I am definitely picking those up. Thanks for the review Publius.

 

@cypar7: I got your PM at Hero Central and gave you some tips.

[RPMiller]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

@Publius: Did you see the PDF with the floorplans and 3d buildings?

 

http://www.knuckleduster.com/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=35&category_id=12

 

It might save you some time.

[RPMiller]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

I ordered both books and also tossed in a deck of old west cards and a sound track. Now I need to find old west style poker chips preferably digital, but the real ones might be cool also.

[Savinien]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Well you could mosey on over to Hero Central and apply for my Western Heroes game' date=' Gunslingers and Greenhorns, if you don't mind PbP games. It is still in the planning and design stage, but I have a fair amount of info up so far. I'll make a general announcement when it opens up for apps.[/quote']

 

And here I thought you WERE opening it up for apps.

 

Tease.

[RPMiller]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Hehehe. Well do you have your character all ready to go? Have you looked through all the Campaign Messages that have been put up recently?

[Publius]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

@Publius: Did you see the PDF with the floorplans and 3d buildings?

 

http://www.knuckleduster.com/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=35&category_id=12

 

It might save you some time.

Ten buildings for $16? Yeah I saw it. Not overly interested, I have known about Whitewash city for some time but never moved on it . I have thought about buying one of their larger sets (the Whitewash city site has more choices), but never really got around to it (BTW you can find them here).

 

I might sell someone else for that price however With a pdf sized for 1inch=2m no less

 

Like Bloody John's Saloon... (which you might note is NOT sized here as this is a gif file)

[RPMiller]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Yea, already found Whitewash City in my search for Western graphics and such.

[RPMiller]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Got my books, CD and cards on Friday. I've thumbed through both books and read a couple section of the Cowtown Creator. Publius was spot on with his reviews. These are going to be great resources for my game. Thanks for the recommendation Publius.

[Spence]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

I have been doing a lot of research on 1600-1800 blackpowder arms with a view toward adopting them to Hero. The one thing that none of the books generally mentions is actual load or even muzzle velocity. In fact, beyond the almost universal repetition of how “low velocity” they were (one lone example is a French fusil with a muzzle velocity of 320 meters per second). But there are also a never ending litany of statements like

 

“It must not be forgotten, however, that the ‘stopping power’ of its enormous bullet was formidable indeed. As one contemporary writer put it, ‘it would stop a bison in its tracks’; and a man hit by it would almost invariably have been incapacitated if not killed” {pg 11, Firepower: Weapons effectiveness on the Battlefield, 1630-1850, Major-General BP Hughes CB CBE}.

 

In your list you have

 

Major snippage-----

Enjoy!

 

Ammunition/Cartridge

(by projectile diameter)

 

Cartridge (A!d6)

 

.36 ball (black powder) (2d6)

.44 ball (black powder) (3d6)

.50 ball (black powder) (4d6)

.54 ball (black powder) (5d6)

.58 ball (black powder) (5d6)

.69 ball (black powder) (4d6+2)

.75 ball (black powder) (4d6)

 

 

For black powder weapons your list has the .75 ball doing less damage than the .54 ball. I am assuming the guns being referred to are rifles and not smoothbores. The weapons I am looking at writing up at present are all smoothbore. For determining damage I am have a few problems. According to my research there were three accepted “types” of rounds for each caliber of musket.

 

Small (loose fitting) – could be fired 3 – 6 at a time for a “shotgun” or “canister” effect.

Caliber Balls – up to caliber but with a small clearance – the normal round.

Fitted Balls – full caliber size that would have to be forced.

 

Since accuracy wasn’t really a something that smoothbores do, the key phrase of infantry was rate of fire. Caliber balls, from what I can tell were the standard for use in an Army. The British Brown Bess with a No. 11 Bore (.76 cal) fired a No. 14 bullet (.71 cal) for example. This allowed the bullet to be dropped in rather than rammed the first shot (or two) and ensured rate of fire as the barrel fouled due to burnt powder. Fitted balls seem to have only been used when hunting or by skirmishers when rate of fire wasn’t the goal. I have still to find an example of “Small”. They are mentioned as existing, but I cannot find an account of them in battle.

 

I am assuming that the damage from the three different rounds would vary the damage done. So for my purposes I am going to stick with the “Caliber Ball” as a base line. Here are the calibers I have identified from my books on hand. Converting the damage above (using the DC/3 you suggested) I get the following Hero damage.

 

 

 

.61/15.5mm

.62/15.7mm

.66/16.8mm

.67/17mm

.67/17.2mm

.68/17.5mm

.69/17.58mm = 1D6+1K

.70/17.8mm

.70/17.78mm

.71/18mm

.73/18.57mm

.75/19mm = 1D6+1K

.76/19.2mm

.78/20mm

 

 

These numbers don’t come close to equaling the “one hit = incapacitated or dead”. Since a single round can disable or kill in one shot, it has to have the ability to generate at least 10 body in one roll (20 for an outright kill). 1D6+1 max’s at 7 body which isn’t enough. I thought the BodyX from the hit location would compensate, but it really doesn’t. Only a hit to the Head or Vitals with X2 would. And yet all of the accounts I have read are replete with accounts of chest and stomach wounds achieving an “instant kill” and a stomach would is pretty much a guaranteed disabling wound when given by a musket ball (but a 1D6+1K attack in hero would not achieve the needed 10 body to “disable” an “average” character).

 

That leaves me in a quandary. I believe the large caliber infantry musket should deliver enough damage it is possible to “Stop a bison in its tracks” or more to the point generate the 10-14 body needed to drop a 10 body being. I also don’t think there is really a need to split hairs and generate a vast array of damages. Generally a musket is a musket.

 

I was thinking along the line of three damages:

 

Small (less than .50cal) 1½D6K

Medium (.60cal to .71cal) 2D6K

Large (.73cal and up) 3D6K

 

But am really open to suggestions.

 

 

Carbines and pistols would have proportionally reduced damage.

 

Now this is all going to be part of a larger Black powder “rules” package. I am working on guidelines that take into account the lack of accuracy of smoothbores as well as reload time. The aim is to make the guns support a swashbuckling setting without dominating. In close quarters (such as a boarding action) you will get one shot that might hit something, and then fall back on steel. With sources estimating a 15% misfire rate in line infantry from one case or another, the odds of the pistol that has been flopping around in your belt while jumping across to the other ship has a good chance of not firing.

 

Anyway. As soon as I get it done I will don my asbestos suit and post it.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Spence, have you searched the boards here for blackpowder weapons? Or checked out Fantasy Hero's weapon list?

 

There are some good foundations there for what you're after, if nothing else. I'm pretty sure I posted some rules about using shot in muskets (sounds like what you're going for with the Small size ball).

 

As far as rate of fire goes, I recall that nearly every source I've ever seen has said that a well trained soldier could fire 3 rounds a minute, which closely correlates to a Full Turn reload time. The tight-fitting ball would probably add another Phase to that to account for the added ramming effort.

[RPMiller]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Remember the damages I posted were just for the bullet. You can add in damage from the weapon itself. I know that doesn't seem to make much sense at first read, but when you take into account different weapons can use different loads and the length of the barrel, compression of the chamber, and type of bore all factor into the end result you can see what I'm getting at.

 

Regardless, you also have to take into account that the average person actually only has an 8 BODY not a 10. 10 are for the 'heroic' folks among us. Also consider that those who were fighting with blackpowder weapons were often youth, and probably had slightly lower BODY still. Then factor in the hit location modifiers and you'll see how it all fits.

 

However, there is also another factor that has to be taken into account. The Action! System which is what the above was designed for is intended to be far more realistic than Hero. So you need to decide what level of realism you are shooting for in your game. (pun intended)

[ThothAmon]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

I must concur with RPMiller. Much of the work I've done via 3G3 has not produced black powder handguns that do massive damage. And IMO that is in keeping with the HERO system ethos.

 

My usual approach for modelling "realistic" damage in HERO is to use mandatory hit locations, bleeding, wounding, impair/disable and double all killing damage body multipliers i.e. chest = x2, head = x4.

 

Muzzle velocity figures for cap-and-ball weapons have been nigh-impossible to find. After all my work I find myself looking again at the simplicity of Western HERO...

[Spence]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Spence, have you searched the boards here for blackpowder weapons? Or checked out Fantasy Hero's weapon list?

 

There are some good foundations there for what you're after, if nothing else. I'm pretty sure I posted some rules about using shot in muskets (sounds like what you're going for with the Small size ball.

 

As far as rate of fire goes, I recall that nearly every source I've ever seen has said that a well trained soldier could fire 3 rounds a minute, which closely correlates to a Full Turn reload time. The tight-fitting ball would probably add another Phase to that to account for the added ramming effort.

 

There are some good foundations there for what you're after, if nothing else. I'm pretty sure I posted some rules about using shot in muskets (sounds like what you're going for with the Small size ball).

 

As far as rate of fire goes, I recall that nearly every source I've ever seen has said that a well trained soldier could fire 3 rounds a minute, which closely correlates to a Full Turn reload time The tight-fitting ball would probably add another Phase to that to account for the added ramming effort.

 

Yes, this has been an ongoing project for several years. Of course not a steady several. I have been in a few old discussions on the boards over the last 2-3 years.

 

I have a dozen different sources and the 3 per minute is what is expected from a "well trained soldier" with the old style musket with conical ramrod and conventional touch hole. If they had the cylindrical ramrods and conical touch holes (no need to reverse the ramrod and no separate pan priming operation) this expected rate could go to 4.5 to 5 rounds a minute.

 

Of course this is for a "well trained soldier", not average, not green, not elite. And these rates were more about what a single soldier was capable of, when volleying in ranks the rate of fire went down, even waiting for the noise of the previous volley to die so the command "aim" and "fire" could be heard adds time between shots.

 

Sustained action also quickly reduced rate of fire. The old blackpowder caused the barrels to foul quickly. I have a few translated accounts that describe soldiers not even bothering to use the ramrod the first few shots because the ball was small enough to just be dropped in. But this was rapidly replaced to needing the ramrod to get the round down and in short order the fouling being so bad the ball wouldn't fit at all. I can't remember which one, but one account describes soldiers urinating in their barrels to help clear the fouling.

 

Fitted ball for muskets and any rifle takes this even further. I have to agree with the opinion that the quality of the powder was a key element in determining overall sustained rate of fire.

 

Remember the damages I posted were just for the bullet. You can add in damage from the weapon itself. I know that doesn't seem to make much sense at first read, but when you take into account different weapons can use different loads and the length of the barrel, compression of the chamber, and type of bore all factor into the end result you can see what I'm getting at.

 

Regardless, you also have to take into account that the average person actually only has an 8 BODY not a 10. 10 are for the 'heroic' folks among us. Also consider that those who were fighting with blackpowder weapons were often youth, and probably had slightly lower BODY still. Then factor in the hit location modifiers and you'll see how it all fits.

 

However, there is also another factor that has to be taken into account. The Action! System which is what the above was designed for is intended to be far more realistic than Hero. So you need to decide what level of realism you are shooting for in your game. (pun intended)

 

I guess I kinda jumped in when I read your damage values. There is an endless supply of data about rate of fire, accuracy and hit probability. But as ThothAmon mentions, muzzle velocity figures are impossible to find. The 320 meters per second mentioned below is the only mention in any of the books I have.

 

I must concur with RPMiller. Much of the work I've done via 3G3 has not produced black powder handguns that do massive damage. And IMO that is in keeping with the HERO system ethos.

 

My usual approach for modelling "realistic" damage in HERO is to use mandatory hit locations, bleeding, wounding, impair/disable and double all killing damage body multipliers i.e. chest = x2, head = x4.

 

Muzzle velocity figures for cap-and-ball weapons have been nigh-impossible to find. After all my work I find myself looking again at the simplicity of Western HERO...

 

I was thinking of just doubling it too. But if I can dig up a more accurate value, I'd like to.

 

Just so people don't misunderstand my intentions. My plan is to come up with blackpowder rules (?) suitable for a cinematic heroic game (swashbuckling pulpish). I just want real world solid data to use a reference point.

 

Except for the actual damage value, I have everything else worked out. I just need to edit my notes so they make sense. In a few days I'll post it and see what you all think.

[RPMiller]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Here are a couple links that might help you Spence. Note the first one explains why it is difficult to find hard velocity data.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

 

This from an old Hero discussion:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-284.html

 

Near the bottom AlHazred mentions finding a book. You may want to drop him a PM and find out what he found.

 

Some velocity data:

http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/muzzle.htm

 

Anyway, as you look into it you'll start to see that different guns using various loads produce different velocities and thus different amounts of damage. This makes it difficult to have specific standards for the weapons themselves and thus the reason for the bullet damage being separate from the weapon as listed above. The data was all compiled and created by Mark of GRG, and he was referencing several weapons books and magazines that he has (he's in law enforcement) as well as G3G.

 

In conclusion, considering it is just a game I think it would be best to go with whatever data you can find and call it done. I highly doubt your players are going to bicker of damages and unless one of them is a blackpowder expert, in which case you should be talking to him , they shouldn't even question what you have come up with.

[Savinien]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Balckpowder rules set would be awesome.

 

I'd like to see something taking into account the differences in the tech changes from matchlock all the way through the flint and wheel lock.

 

Perhaps some info concerning blunderbusses and the skirmish/hunter vs. volley soldier of the period.

[Spence]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Here are a couple links that might help you Spence. Note the first one explains why it is difficult to find hard velocity data.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

 

This from an old Hero discussion:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-284.html

 

Near the bottom AlHazred mentions finding a book. You may want to drop him a PM and find out what he found.

 

Some velocity data:

http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/muzzle.htm

 

Anyway, as you look into it you'll start to see that different guns using various loads produce different velocities and thus different amounts of damage. This makes it difficult to have specific standards for the weapons themselves and thus the reason for the bullet damage being separate from the weapon as listed above. The data was all compiled and created by Mark of GRG, and he was referencing several weapons books and magazines that he has (he's in law enforcement) as well as G3G.

 

In conclusion, considering it is just a game I think it would be best to go with whatever data you can find and call it done. I highly doubt your players are going to bicker of damages and unless one of them is a blackpowder expert, in which case you should be talking to him , they shouldn't even question what you have come up with.

 

Thanks,

 

I'll need a bit of time to digest the info.

[Spence]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Balckpowder rules set would be awesome.

 

I'd like to see something taking into account the differences in the tech changes from matchlock all the way through the flint and wheel lock.

 

Perhaps some info concerning blunderbusses and the skirmish/hunter vs. volley soldier of the period.

 

I'm right with you. My plan was top start with flintlocks. Once I have a workable handle on them I intend to add the other types, with the most "common" first.

 

So the first would be "flintlocks wielded by individuals".

[Toadmaster]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Spence I have had the same idea but get to play so infrequently that I've never followed up on it.

 

I did however come up with a chart for estimated black powder loads that might help you out. I pulled the info from a couple of sources and have a book with a chart to help determine the velocity based on the bullet weight and powder energy. Energy is based on velocity and bullet weight.

 

weapon, bullet wt, velocity, energy

.28 / 10gr pistol, 33 Gr, 1510 fps / 458 m/s, 167 ft/lbs / 227 J

.31 / 15gr pistol, 49 Gr, 1510 fps / 458 m/s, 248 ft/lbs / 337 J

.36 / 22 gr pistol, 82 Gr, 1430 fps / 433 m/s, 372 ft/lbs / 506 J

.40 / 25 gr pistol, 96 Gr, 1430 fps / 433 m/s, 436 ft/lbs / 593 J

.41 / 10 gr derringer, 96 Gr, 888 fps / 269 m/s, 168 ft/lbs / 227 J

.44 / 28 gr pistol, 128 Gr, 1330 fps / 403 m/s, 502 ft/lbs / 683 J

.44 / 40 gr pistol, 128 Gr, 1510 fps / 458 m/s, 648 ft/lbs / 882 J

.54 / 35 gr pistol, 236 Gr, 1105 fps / 335 m/s, 640 ft/lbs / 870 J

.58 / 40 gr pistol, 293 Gr, 1142 fps / 346 m/s, 847 ft/lbs / 1152 J

.69 / 49 gr pistol, 493 Gr, 821 fps / 249 m/s, 735 ft/lbs / 1000 J

.28 / 20 gr rifle, 33 Gr, 2093 fps / 634 m/s, 320 ft/lbs / 435 J

.31 / 30 gr rifle, 49 Gr, 2093 fps / 634 m/s, 475 ft/lbs / 646 J

.36 / 44 gr rifle, 82 Gr, 1922 fps / 582 m/s, 671 ft/lbs / 913 J

.40 / 55 gr rifle, 96 Gr, 1922 fps / 582 m/s, 785 ft/lbs / 1068 J

.44 / 56 gr rifle, 128 Gr, 1800 fps / 545 m/s, 920 ft/lbs / 1252 J

.45 / 60 gr rifle, 128 Gr, 1922 fps / 582 m/s, 1047 ft/lbs / 1425 J

.50 / 50 gr rifle, 210 Gr, 1472 fps / 446 m/s, 1006 ft/lbs / 1369 J

.54 / 60 gr rifle, 236 Gr, 1440 fps / 436 m/s, 1086 ft/lbs / 1478 J

.54 / 75 gr rifle, 236 Gr, 1665 fps / 505 m/s, 1454 ft/lbs / 1978 J

.54 / 85 gr rifle, 236 Gr, 1724 fps / 522 m/s, 1558 ft/lbs / 2120 J

.54 / 100 gr rifle, 236 Gr, 1895 fps / 574 m/s, 1881 ft/lbs / 2559 J

.56 / 70 gr rifle, 263 Gr, 1540 fps / 467 m/s, 1383 ft/lbs / 1882 J

.577 / 60 gr rifle, 293 Gr, 1413 fps / 428 m/s, 1295 ft/lbs / 1762 J

.58 / 60 gr rifle, 293 Gr, 1413 fps / 428 m/s, 1295 ft/lbs / 1762 J

.69 / 70 gr rifle, 493 Gr, 1193 fps / 362 m/s, 1553 ft/lbs / 2113 J

.69 / 80 gr rifle, 493 Gr, 1260 fps / 382 m/s, 1735 ft/lbs / 2361 J

4ga / 273 gr, 1531gr, 1332 fps / 404 m/s, 6017 ft/lbs / 8186 J

8ga / 135 gr, 793gr, 1305 fps / 396 m/s, 2998 ft/lbs / 4079 J

10ga / 109 gr, 656gr, 1283 fps / 389 m/s, 2388 ft/lbs / 3249 J

12ga / 89 gr, 547gr, 1283 fps / 389 m/s, 1991 ft/lbs / 2709 J

16ga / 75 gr, 437gr, 1305 fps / 396 m/s, 1652 ft/lbs / 2248 J

20ga / 68 gr, 383gr, 1332 fps / 404 m/s, 1505 ft/lbs / 2048 J

28ga / 55 gr, 328gr, 1283 fps / 389 m/s, 1194 ft/lbs / 1625 J

 

 

The .44 / 28 grain is the standard .44 pistol of the civil war era, the 40 grain load was used in the Colt Dragoon, the periods "magnum" (weighed almost 4 lbs too). Don't recall off hand all the various weapons but this should at least give you a place to start.

 

Chart is a little hard to read, is is weapon (caliber and powder load), bullet weight (grains), muzzle velocity (feet / meters per second), muzzle energy (ft lbs / joules).

[Spence]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

Lots o good stuff.

 

I finished up my rough guidelines. It reads a lot longer than it is in practice. I went with game-able over reality.

 

Give me a chance to get behind cover.... and let the flames and potshots begin

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28792&highlight=black+powder

 

Here are some more variant rules I came up with. If any of your players have read much in the way of the Leatherstocking tales or similar stories, they'll want to dump a handful of buckshot in with their regular musket ball at some point.

 

Doesn't look bad at all to me, though, Spence. No need to go into hiding.

[Spence]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28792&highlight=black+powder

 

Here are some more variant rules I came up with. If any of your players have read much in the way of the Leatherstocking tales or similar stories, they'll want to dump a handful of buckshot in with their regular musket ball at some point.

 

Doesn't look bad at all to me, though, Spence. No need to go into hiding.

 

Thanks

 

I remember that thread and seriously considered using your idea of "concentration" for the loading process. But decided that the time needed to load was enough of a slowdown. I tweeked the Malfunctions to try and make real weapon mean something.

 

For malfunctions I have some additional things like +1 to the roll for malfunctions only for every three shots where the weapon is not cleaned. Plus I was toying with a load speed penalty for a weapon that is fired a lot to represent the build up of power residue.

 

I am also looking at “buck and ball” as well as “small balls” and shotguns. I wanted to settle the format and process for flintlocks firing standard caliber ball first. Then I will add other types of ammo, plus other firelocks such as Matchlock, Wheellock and Caplock.

 

If things go as intended it may even be good enough to write up a DH article.

[Savinien]

Re: Victorian / Western HERO Firearms

 

I shall have a look at my earliest convenience and let you know how much I stole!