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6th Edition Hero System


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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Oh, an even more on point entry from the 5th (non revised) rules FAQ:

 

How can you determine whether a Sense can perceive through physical objects' date=' like walls?[/b']

 

This isn’t really a matter of establishing a hard-and-fast rule. It’s more an issue of considering what’s being detected, the nature of the Sense Group, and the special effects involved, and then applying your common and dramatic sense.

 

First, consider what the Detect is for. Typically, if it perceives something physical (such as Gold), it’s usually reasonable for other physical objects (like walls) to block perception of it. In some cases, the broader the category of perceivable objects, the less likely that axiom is to hold. For example, Detect Physical Objects (used to create things like N-Ray Perception and Spatial Awareness) would be useless if it couldn’t perceive all physical objects in the vicinity without being blocked by any of them.

 

Second, consider the Sense Group involved. If a character can “see” magic, it stands to reason that most things which block Sight block his Detect Magic, too. If he can “smell” water, anything that blocks Smell probably inhibits his Detect Water as well. This isn’t a universal rule, of course, but it’s a good guideline to follow in most instances.

 

Third, consider the special effects involved, particularly when you’re building a power. If you want to create a power that can Detect Magic without being blocked by physical objects, build it so that you don’t have to assign it to a Sense Group that would ordinarily have difficulty perceiving through physical objects. Then the whole issue becomes moot.

 

Last (but certainly not least), keep common sense and dramatic sense in mind. No set of rules can (or should) define everything, particularly not for such an abstract yet important topic as senses and perception. If your common sense tells you a Detect shouldn’t be able to perceive through walls, don’t let it (or, if you’re a player, decide that’s how your character’s power works and apply it that way). If your common sense tells you a Detect doesn’t make much sense (no pun intended) if it can’t perceive through walls (as with N-Ray Perception), then you should let it do so, even if that means reworking it a bit so that its effects are more obvious to another person who glances at your character sheet.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'm not sure what you're saying "no" to here. It *is* a change in 5ER - 5E makes no reference to Detecting through barriers by default. All senses have barriers' date=' just like all attacks have defenses, and if you want a particular sense to bypass barriers, you buy N-Ray for that sense.[/quote']

 

I'm saying no to your proposed "fixes"

 

Archermoo pulled out the relevant FAQs - the 5E ones at that.

 

Nothing about N-Ray or Spatial Awareness changed from 5E to 5ER.

 

You're paying 22 points for Spatial Awareness as a Sense. That's the most expensive pre-defined sense listed in the book. Tell me how you're not paying for what you're getting?

 

For reference the only Enhanced Sense Powers more expensive that Spatial Awareness are Sense Adders: Dimensional (any Dimension, one Sense Group) and Increased Arc Of Perception (360 degrees for all Sense Groups)- both at 25 pts.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Yes. Both Senses are built as “Detect Physical Objects.” If they simulate the Sight Group' date=' that means the character can see the wall, but he can also see other normal physical objects out to the Range of his Sight, regardless of intervening objects that would block normal Sight.[/quote']

This seems to contradict what Ghost-Angel said: If the SA is part of the sight group, then it has the same barriers as the rest of the Sight Group.

 

PER Roll modifiers that affect the Sight Group may or may not affect one of these Senses, depending on special effects and the situation. The more “physical” a modifier is, the more likely it is to cause difficulties. Ordinary nighttime darkness would probably have little or no effect, since it’s not a physical object. On the other hand, fog is a physical object, and would probably have an effect.

So Sight Spatial Awareness has difficulty seeing through fog, but not through a concrete wall? :rolleyes: Am I supposed to take this FAQ entry seriously?

 

N-Ray Perception and Spatial Awareness cannot ignore the effects of Sense-Affecting Powers. Suppose they’re defined as part of the Sight Group. ....

What about Entangle with Stops a Given Sense (sight in this case)? X-Ray Vision ought to be able to see through opaque goo as long as it's significantly less dense than lead. Can Sight Spatial Awareness see through it? What about Barrier created by the Entangle? Why should it be treated differently than a wall?

 

This isn’t really a matter of establishing a hard-and-fast rule. It’s more an issue of considering what’s being detected' date=' the nature of the Sense Group, and the special effects involved, and then applying your common and dramatic sense.[/quote']

A much better answer, IMO. Why does this answer disagree with the first one? It's hard to put any faith in a FAQ that contradicts itself.

 

.... For example, Detect Physical Objects (used to create things like N-Ray Perception and Spatial Awareness) would be useless if it couldn’t perceive all physical objects in the vicinity without being blocked by any of them.

Patently false: Spatial Awareness is still extremely useful even if it doesn't work through walls.

 

Second, consider the Sense Group involved. If a character can “see” magic, it stands to reason that most things which block Sight block his Detect Magic, too. ...

Which disagrees with the first answer.

 

Third, consider the special effects involved, particularly when you’re building a power. If you want to create a power that can Detect Magic without being blocked by physical objects, build it so that you don’t have to assign it to a Sense Group that would ordinarily have difficulty perceiving through physical objects. Then the whole issue becomes moot.

Which seems to be what Ghost-Angel said originally, and what I understood him to say: that if you don't assign a Detect to a particular Sense Group, you get "through barriers" for free.

 

Last (but certainly not least), keep common sense and dramatic sense in mind. No set of rules can (or should) define everything, particularly not for such an abstract yet important topic as senses and perception. ....

While I agree with this in principle, I don't think it would be too difficult to have a set of rules in place to determine which senses can see through barriers and which can't. My basic thought on the matter is that it should be something like this:

 

By default, all senses (whether normal human senses, or "power" senses bought with Detect and whatever other options) have a common set or type of barriers that they can't perceive through. What these barriers are should be based on common sense and the SFX/sense group, etc. For example, Sight can't see through opaque objects. Hearing can't perceive through vibration-absorbing objects, etc.

 

For some Adder (say +10 points), a sense can perceive through most of the barriers that it would normally have. The only barrier(s) the sense would have would be a limited, uncommon substance or phenomenon. For example, X-Ray Vision would see through most opaque objects, but not through lead, gold, or other very dense materials. (10 points just happens to be the current price of N-Ray Perception).

 

This seems like a simple, workable, and fair solution.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

For 22 points of Spatial Awareness I can determine:

1) There is an object X feet away

2) The general shape of that object

 

For that same 22 points I can do any one of the following:

1) N-Ray, Infrared, Nightvision, +1 PER Roll (all for Sight Group)

2) HRRP and Radio Perception/Transmission

3) +7 PER Roll (all Groups) [with a point left over]

4) 7 levels of Telescopic (that's +14 vs Range Modifiers) to a single Group.

 

as examples. I'm sorry I think 22 points in a single Sense justifies being able to gain two rather indistinct forms of information, concrete wall in the way or not.

If you think Spatial Awareness (or any Detect) needs a "reasonably common barrier that blocks it" by all means add one. I don't really disagree. Your original statement was that no sense should be allowed to see through barriers, at all. You seemed to have moderated that opinion back, fair enough.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Nothing about N-Ray or Spatial Awareness changed from 5E to 5ER.

Yes it did. There's nothing in 5E that says Detect has no barriers unless and until you give it a sense group. I can however, acknowledge that there may not have been any change between the self-contradictory 5E *FAQ* and 5ER.

 

You're paying 22 points for Spatial Awareness as a Sense. That's the most expensive pre-defined sense listed in the book. Tell me how you're not paying for what you're getting?

You pay 22 points for Spatial Awareness and assign it to the Sight Group. According to the second FAQ answer that archermoo quoted, and also according to what you've said, and what apparently 5ER says, you don't get to see through walls, since walls block normal sight.

 

You pay the same 22 points for Spatial Awareness and don't assign it to any sense group, and you do get to see through walls. According to what you've said, no sense group = no barriers.

 

Not only is the second power more useful for the same price, it's far less likely to be impeded by Sense-Affecting Powers than the first power. There's lots of Flashes and Darknesses and Images vs. the Sight Group, but no so many vs. the special "non-group" group.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Your original statement was that no sense should be allowed to see through barriers' date=' at all.[/quote']

That was not my original statement at all. I said that no sense should be allowed to see through barriers *without paying for that added utility.*

 

Alternatively, I suppose we could say that all senses can see through anything by default, and let those that can't take a Limitation.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

That was not my original statement at all. I said that no sense should be allowed to see through barriers *without paying for that added utility.*

 

Alternatively, I suppose we could say that all senses can see through anything by default, and let those that can't take a Limitation.

 

You ARE paying for the added Utility.

 

The two main senses that penetrate barriers are Spatial Awareness and N-Ray Vision.

 

Neither is a Sense Adder, they are Senses in themselves.

 

The 10pt Level of Detect is the highest level. defined as a very broad class of things (Physical Objects for instance).

 

Does Danger Sense get stopped by a wall? No. If you are in Danger your sense trips - because all you are doing is detecting "danger" of some kind.

 

Detect Physical Objects - you are simply detecting all physical objects in the range of your sense. Wherever they are, in whatever layout they occur.

 

Maybe it's a Radar type sense, Radar can certainly penetrate many walls.

Perhaps it's a Mystical Awareness - whose to say a wall can stop that?

 

As far as I'm concerned - you ARE paying for the ability to detect objects past barriers already.

Whether or not the SFX meshes with the game I'm in is another matter completely, and may be reason enough to disallow the power in that game outright. Or require a Limitation "Cannot bypass walls."

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

OTOH' date=' it was how many years between [list']

[*]1st and 2nd edition

[*]2nd and 3rd edition, and

[*]3rd and 4th edition?

The time between the 4th and 5th editions was not deliberate. We should have had a 5th edition of some kind by, what, 1996? HERO grognards, can you verify a time-frame when there was a pretty-much-finished manuscript for the other 5th edition?

 

From the Champions mailing list:

 

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:41:10 EDT
From: (Steve's e-mail address redacted)
Subject: Fifth Edition

For those of you keeping score at home, I thought you'd like to know
that, after over a year of work, I've finally turned in the completed 5th
Edition HERO System manuscript to Hero Games as of today. Time for editing
and layout....

Steve Long

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

From the Champions mailing list:

 

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:41:10 EDT
From: (Steve's e-mail address redacted)
Subject: Fifth Edition

For those of you keeping score at home, I thought you'd like to know
that, after over a year of work, I've finally turned in the completed 5th
Edition HERO System manuscript to Hero Games as of today. Time for editing
and layout....

Steve Long

 

Woops! Pardon my mistake... talk to me in 2012 about 6th Ed then. (It was only 10 years between 4th and 5th... intentional or otherwise!) :smoke:

 

On the other hand, the world comes to an end on Dec 21, 2012 anyway! (Or so the Mayan's thought) :nonp:

 

I just really dread the idea of buying shelves full of 6th Edition books to replace my current 5ths. I mean, how many times do we need to see a rewrite of say the Ultimate Martial Artist? :idjit:

 

Count me out of 6th Edition.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

On the other hand' date=' the world comes to an end on Dec 21, 2012 anyway! (Or so the Mayan's thought) :nonp:[/quote']

 

No.

 

Look up Mayan Calendar in wikipedia or see some of Steve's entries in the What Do You Want To See for the Post-Apocalypse Hero book. That date came about because people misinterpreted the Mayan Calendar completely.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Nothing about N-Ray or Spatial Awareness changed from 5E to 5ER.

 

Just as a note on this, not only did nothing about N-Ray or Spatial Awareness change from 5E to 5ER, nothing else did either. 5ER is 5E with the rules FAQ of the time and errata integrated. As has been said many times by both Darren and Steve, if you have 5E and access to the FAQ and the errata, you have 5ER. 5ER is just a bit more convenient.

 

My understanding is that 5ER was released because they were switching printers for the core book anyway, and since they wanted to integrate the errata they decided they might as well integrate the rules FAQ too while they were at it.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Just as a note on this, not only did nothing about N-Ray or Spatial Awareness change from 5E to 5ER, nothing else did either. 5ER is 5E with the rules FAQ of the time and errata integrated. As has been said many times by both Darren and Steve, if you have 5E and access to the FAQ and the errata, you have 5ER. 5ER is just a bit more convenient.

 

It's not true that nothing changed. I know of four changes off the top of my head.

  1. Variable limitation changed in a way that directly contradicts the 5E FAQ in one way (how Foci are treated) and does not completely match the FAQ overall.
  2. Trigger was significantly expanded (taken from Digital Hero, I believe).
  3. Extradimensional Movement was given more detailed options.
  4. Physical Manifestation was added (first appeared in Fantasy Hero, I believe).

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I've been playing since 3E, have most of 4E and a lot of 5E. Getting me to buy 6E is going to be a trick. I already have a ton of money in the system and I don't want it invalidated. I also don't want to spend the money unless I get enough bang for my buck. So in a perfect world, 6E has to add new stuff that's at least as backwards compatible as 4E.

 

First things first: That means any wholesale revamping of stats or mechanics are off the table. Changing the prices of the primary characteristics or how skills work is going to destroy backwards compatibility.

 

I see two ways to go from here: First option, keep the rules essentially as they are, but fold them into a vastly expanded version of Hero Designer. Essentially the note or definition on the power in HD will reflect the full text of the manuscript.

 

The other option is to take the current 5ER, plus the Ultimate Series and as much as possible redact them into a single volume. The end result would be a bigger book than we have now, but for everyone but the absolute completist it would bring new information.

 

There are my thoughts.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

It's not true that nothing changed. I know of four changes off the top of my head.

  1. Extradimensional Movement was given more detailed options.

 

On this point - the expanded/clarified EDM was first put in Sidekick, and Steve did say this is how he had intended it to work from the outset, but it wasn't worded clearly enough.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

You ARE paying for the added Utility.

No, you aren't. If the SA is tied to a sense group that is normally stopped by barriers (which would include ALL of the RW senses), then the SA is stopped by barriers. If you don't tie it to a sense group, you do get to see through barriers, for no additional cost. Is that so hard to understand?

 

The two main senses that penetrate barriers are Spatial Awareness and N-Ray Vision.

And according to you, ALL Detects that aren't tied to a sense group also penetrate barriers.

 

Does Danger Sense get stopped by a wall? No. If you are in Danger your sense trips - because all you are doing is detecting "danger" of some kind.

Depends on what level of DS you buy. If you buy it at the "Only perceive Dangers that you could normally detect with your normal senses" level, then maybe not, since your normal senses can't see through walls.

 

Whether or not the SFX meshes with the game I'm in is another matter completely, and may be reason enough to disallow the power in that game outright. Or require a Limitation "Cannot bypass walls."

In HERO, you pay for utility, not SFX. It is not fair to grant one SFX more utility than another for the same price. I would have no problem with all senses going through barriers and a "blocked by X" Limitation for the ones that don't.

 

If everyone has it it's not "extra utility not paid for"

But not everyone has it. That's my point. If you call it a "mystic sense" you get to bypass barriers. If you call it super-accurate hearing, then you don't. As a function of SFX, not of points spent.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

It's not true that nothing changed. I know of four changes off the top of my head.

They also took out the "no temperature level zero" line from the environmental effects section.

 

AFAIK, they also rebuilt Regeneration in a completely different way, and added a "reset time" adder/advantage to Healing.

 

And IIRC, the 5E FAQ never included anything about not being able to MPA with two powers from the same framework, even if you have enough points.

 

And BTW, I agree with Mr. Yuck and Lemurion - I don't want to buy a whole new shelf of books. Which is why I said several pages ago that 6E should be nothing more than 10 pages of corrections/revisions/refinements to the system.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

No.

 

Look up Mayan Calendar in wikipedia or see some of Steve's entries in the What Do You Want To See for the Post-Apocalypse Hero book. That date came about because people misinterpreted the Mayan Calendar completely.

 

 

No. No?? Wow... that's a little arrogant of you.

 

You don't actually believe everything you read on Wikipedia or the Internet do you?

And you don't take everything a Role-Playing Game designer says as gospel, right? (No offense to Steve, I think he's brilliant!)

 

I would say that there are two sides to this opinion.

To flatly state NO leads me to believe that you've already formed your opinion off these two sources.

 

Now, that's fine... but if you're really interested in this material, you should check out a show on the History Channel called Decoding the Past: Mayan Doomsday Prohpecy. There are also MANY books available at your local library on Mayans and other Meso-American cultures.

 

On the History Channel program, they talk about the Katunes of Chelam Belam and the Mayan prophecy. They also talk about the end of the age dated Dec 21st, 2012. Some scholars feel this is the end of the current age and predicts the destruction of our world as we know it. However, the next age DOES continue... whether or not we as a people will be there to witness it.

 

I put a little more faith with these Historians of Meso-American cultures than other sources. (even if they ARE on TV!)

 

Just a thought. :thumbup:

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

It's not true that nothing changed. I know of four changes off the top of my head.

  1. Variable limitation changed in a way that directly contradicts the 5E FAQ in one way (how Foci are treated) and does not completely match the FAQ overall.
  2. Trigger was significantly expanded (taken from Digital Hero, I believe).
  3. Extradimensional Movement was given more detailed options.
  4. Physical Manifestation was added (first appeared in Fantasy Hero, I believe).

 

The rules in respect of multiple power attacks from frameworks were modified to prohibit slots within a multipower or a VPP being combined. There are a few other changes which contradict, rather than expand on, 5e in there.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Specifically - no the world does not end.

 

The Long Count Calendar ends. Starting over.

 

The end date of the Long Count Calendar is no more the end of the world than the end of a millennium is in the Gregorian Calendar.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar

 

See the host of verifiable references at the bottom.

 

 

For the record - I don't own a TV. They don't list verifiable references.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The next bugaboo of mine is this one:

 

Shrinking. I cannot, for the life of me, repeat how utterly and completely broken shrinking is.

 

The DCV benefits this power grants in conjunction with everything else makes things completely and totally outrageous.

 

I recommend that the power cost of Shrinking be changed to 15 points per die.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The next bugaboo of mine is this one:

 

Shrinking. I cannot, for the life of me, repeat how utterly and completely broken shrinking is.

 

The DCV benefits this power grants in conjunction with everything else makes things completely and totally outrageous.

 

I recommend that the power cost of Shrinking be changed to 15 points per die.

 

What do you consider "everything else"? I see some perception roll penalties, and the ability to move around in areas a normal size person could not.

 

+3 DCV levels (15 points) costs END (-1/2) would cost 10 points, the same as one level of Shrinking, and it wouldn't result in the substantial knockback bonus the character takes if targeted by an area effect attack.

 

A Shrinker is like any other DCV heavy opponent, other than being tough to spot. If he wants to attack from range without an IPE power, his approximate location is pretty easy to determine for targeting an AoE attack. If he's not detectable, friendly fire becomes a real issue.

 

I'd consider a 15 point per level cost prohibitively expensive. 60 AP to get a 6' man to a height of about 1" is reasonable. 90 AP is not.

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Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

This is covered by "GM's permission."

 

 

This is apparently another change between FREd and 5ER. In FREd (5E, non-revised), there's no mention of Spacial awareness being Indirect or working through walls. Which IMO is how it should be. If you want your SA to be Indirect, then buy it Indirect, or just buy N-Ray with your SA.

 

N-Ray Perception, OTOH, *is* broken, IMO, or at least not built correctly (unless this has also changed in 5ER). It's simply built as a detect, but nothing in the build allows it to go through walls or any other barriers. It should have either Indirect, or its own "through barriers" sense adder.

 

IMO, all senses should have the default rule that they don't sense through certain fairly common and obvious types of barriers. Sight does not perceive through anything opaque, for example. Then allow an "N-ray" adder that replaces the common barrier with an uncommon one (such as lead, gold, and other very dense materials).

The whole problem here is a mix between SFX and mechanics - something HERO philosophically should be avoiding. It's also, given this, a points-balance issue. Why is one mechanic getting the abilities of other mechanics freely? I presume because someone felt that "logically" spatial awareness would work in this fashion given it's SFX, though could be wrong. In any event, this is a sort of "atomic level problem" where the system is giving different directions and costs for the same feature. Not good, agreed with Balabanto.

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