Galactic Champions Books

[Citizen Keen]

Now, I know that technically, the only book you ever need is FREd, everything else is "supplementary". But let's assume some dependency - you need Star HERO for Terran Empire, and you need Terran Empire for Spacer's Toolkit. You need Champions for Champions Universe, and you need Champions Universe for Millenium City.

 

Under those assumptions, what books will we need for Galactic Champions?

 

Will it be a genre book like Champions and Star HERO, and then we'll see a Galactic Champions Universe, or will it be a campaign book, like Terran Empire or Champions Universe? And if it is a universe book, will it "require" Champions, Star HERO or both?

 

Thanks,

 

-cK

[Steve Long]

Galactic Champions will cover three subjects, broadly speaking:

 

1. How to run high-powered Champions games.

 

2. The state of the Champions Universe/Hero Universe as of the year 3000.

 

3. Villains for the Galactic Champions Universe.

 

I'll let you judge, based on that, what you think you'll need. It's certainly not going to cover all the "how to design planets and stars" stuff from SH. Nor will it include extensive details on the various species of the setting, etc.; those are covered in TE, The Galactic Federation, and so on.

 

I think that based on my outline, the bulk of the book (say, half of it) will be #3. But until Darren turns in his final draft, I don't know.

[Citizen Keen]

So, this sounds mostly like a subgenre of Champions, a la Dark Champions. Am I somewhat correct on this?

[Steve Long]

Yes, it definitely falls into the "subgenre book" category, much like Golden Age Champions and Silver Age Champions.

[HeroGM]

Do you foresee a Golden Age Champion's sometime in the near future?

 

[AlHazred]

The web site still lists that as a potential book, without author.

 

I suppose, with two other editions out there, it's not going to be a priority any time soon.

[Deacon Blues]

Originally posted by Steve Long

 

3. Villains for the Galactic Champions Universe.

Please say Dr. D ...

 

Or at least the Slug. Everyone underestimates the Slug!

[megaplayboy]

I suspect that any further support for Galactic Champions will depend on how hot the sales are and how much interest is expressed here on the boards in further product.

 

I for one want to know if a typical cosmic hero can dismantle a Terran Empire Battleship:D

[Morningstar]

I really look forward to this one.

[djday38]

I am also looking foward to this product. One subject I would like to see addressed fall all of us guys who are running a present day champs campaign is a method of utilising all these cool characters from different eras.

 

We already have many characters turning up from different time periods in CU products and Digital Hero. We will have a lot of extra characters in Galactic Champions and also down the line Golden Age and Silver Age supplements.

 

I would like to see a common method of time travel inserted into the universe, something the heroes could use (when I needed them to) without being available all the time or abusive. Although I love Captain Chronos I don't want to use him all the time for these plots.

 

With their being a hero games meta setting and one overall time line for all products, it seems to me it would open up all the other settings for me to use for some great changes of pace (this week guys you find yourself back in the 20's with the Raven, later that year they jump foward in time to the Terran Empire). This would obviously encourage sales and interest between product lines and time epochs.

 

Maybe an organisation that protects the time line?

 

any thoughts?

[Steve Long]

Do you foresee a Golden Age Champion's sometime in the near future?

 

Depends on how you define "near." Darren's going to write most of GAC, but it's not currently on the schedule. 2005 at the earliest, barring unforeseen changes.

 

Please say Dr. D ...

 

We went through this in another thread recently -- no information will as yet be revealed, he said with a maniacal cackle. All I'll reveal is: a few villains will get "carried forward," but most of the GC villains will be new.

[Bazza]

I believe the tread Steve is refering to is this one:

 

What Champions characters might survive to the Terran Empire?

[Steve Long]

I suspect that any further support for Galactic Champions will depend on how hot the sales are and how much interest is expressed here on the boards in further product.

 

Sure, that's true with just about anything. If GC sold outrageously well, that would make us think about doing some further books about that part of the Champions Universe.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by djday38

I would like to see a common method of time travel inserted into the universe, something the heroes could use (when I needed them to) without being available all the time or abusive. Although I love Captain Chronos I don't want to use him all the time for these plots.

 

With their being a hero games meta setting and one overall time line for all products, it seems to me it would open up all the other settings for me to use for some great changes of pace (this week guys you find yourself back in the 20's with the Raven, later that year they jump foward in time to the Terran Empire). This would obviously encourage sales and interest between product lines and time epochs.

 

Maybe an organisation that protects the time line?

 

any thoughts?

 

Having one organization policing the time stream limits the potential for characters to meddle - anyone out of his time is likely to attact their attention. While that may be a good thing if you want to restrict PC ability to change history, it can result in a "Not these guys again!" reaction from the players. OTOH you could get a lot of mileage out of player characters being recruited by these temporal guardians to help set history "right" (with potential conflicts between players as to what would actually be the "right" version of history). You could even base a campaign on PCs hopping through history with the "time cops" in hot pursuit.

 

My own preference has been to provide some plot device like a time machine or magic gateway that the player characters can have access to, but set the principles of time travel such that characters can move through time, and have the ability to affect the past in minor ways, but major changes become more difficult based on the size of the change, and the PCs effectively can't change their immediate past to alter the outcome of bad decisions etc. In that vein I've gotten quite a bit of mileage out of the excellent essay on time travel and other extradimensional jaunts that appears in the 4E Champs adventure compilation Champions Presents. The essay is at the end of the adventure "Menace Out of Time" (appropriately enough) by Dean and Dana Edgell, and covers such topics as "The Law of Temporal Dynamics", "The Three Laws of Historical Momentum", "Psyche Exclusion Principle" and "The Gravity Well Effect". All of these help keep time travel scenarios from being abusive, but the essay also points out that any of them could be circumvented by extraordinary technology or similar means if that would suit the GM's purposes.

 

The adventures in the book are pretty good, too.

[HeroGM]

Time Travel

 

I like what they put in the Rip Hunter Maxi-series (DC) at one point. A person can only travel through time a certain way three times. After that it's no good. So if Joe Normal got ahold of Chronos' belt he'd only be able to use it 3 times before he needed to find a new method or device.

 

And if I recall that includes people piggy-backing, 3 times period. No matter who's sitting behind the controls.

[egyptian]

I just hope that New Gods and Mister Miracle are mentioned in the bibliography Nobody understood the cosmic struggle between Good and Evil better than the King.

[megaplayboy]

well, speaking of teams:

LSH

Guardians of the Galaxy

Adam Warlock and The Infinity Watch

Green Lantern Corps

high end versions of the JLA and Avengers

the short-lived "Thor Corps",

and the ad hoc team which took on Tyrant

The New Gods

The Eternals(also illustrated/created by Kirby, IIRC)

The "core 4" Defenders

Shi-ar Imperial Guard

 

are all examples of high powered superteams. They're not as common as the mid-level teams in the comics, but they're certainly not uncommon.

 

I think that there exists in the Hero gaming community some antipathy towards high-level campaigns. Usually this boils down into 3 basic complaints/concerns:

 

1. high level characters are more separated from humanity, and thus a lot of roleplaying interactions are constrained.

2. unless characters are narrowly defined, everyone can do everything, and people tweak the system to remove a great deal of challenge from the game.

3. A smaller range of stories available for high level campaigns--since you're not going to go after street crime, for example.

4. association with powergaming and munchkinism.

Generally I think many of these concerns are unfounded, but I still think a bias definitely exists, at least I have found that in my experience.

 

I hope that this book will address those concerns, to ease the burden for prospective GMs. I don't want to expect too much from this book, but it looks like it will be the only release to address high-level campaigns, so it's important to me that it say something.

[Tim]

You forgot LEGION

 

the LSH teens aren't really high powered. Most could easily be built on 350 points or less. Probably the only exception to this would be Mon'el, and that eras Shazam. It's been a few years since I read them though so I don't know what the writers ave done to them.

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by Tim

You forgot LEGION

 

the LSH teens aren't really high powered. Most could easily be built on 350 points or less. Probably the only exception to this would be Mon'el, and that eras Shazam. It's been a few years since I read them though so I don't know what the writers ave done to them.

 

Yeah, point taken, but honestly--who wants to play the LAME members of the Legion(except in a light comedy game)?

 

Matter-Eater Lad?

Duo Damsel?

Dream Girl?

Light Lass?

Bouncing Boy?

 

Meanwhile, on the same team:

 

Supergirl

Superboy

Brainiac 5(add up everything he can do and he's well beyond 350)

UltraBoy

Colossal Boy

WildFire

Mon-El

Blok

TimberWolf

Saturn Girl(lately)

 

I don't characterize any of the high-end teams in the comics by their weakest members. That's disingenuous, IMHO, and simply an attempt to divert the discussion from an honest question:

 

"Why CAN'T we play a game with characters as powerful and capable as the most powerful and capable heroes in the comics?"

[lemming]

Originally posted by megaplayboy

Yeah, point taken, but honestly--who wants to play the LAME members of the Legion(except in a light comedy game)?

 

Matter-Eater Lad?

I think Matter Eater Lad was underrated. It seemed like he was always able to take a bite out of anything. I bet Mon-el and Superboy could of had their jugalar's ripped right out. heh.

[assault]

People seem to be forgetting that a significant part of the Legion are people like Phantom Girl, Shadow Lass, Shrinking Violet, Invisible Kid, Dream Girl and so on. Not an attack power between them, but they are serious characters.

 

Then you get people like Lightning Lad, Lightning Lass, Sun Boy, Star Boy, Polar Boy, Cosmic Boy and Magnetic Kid, who are all essentially normals with crunchy attack powers.

 

There are even midranking bricks like Ferro Lad and Colossal Bore.

 

None of this lot are particularly powerful. Sure, you could burn a lot of points building them, but they would largely be wasted. 350 would do nicely, with another 100 points worth of standard equipment (flight rings, etc.) Hmm. So, yes, they would be 450 point characters - tough, but not overwhelming.

 

Oh, and some of the "silly" characters could be surprisingly nasty too, so just watch out.

 

Alan

[assault]

Oh, and some more space based series:

 

L.E.G.I.O.N. '89

Omega Men

 

Plus, for LSH fans, their very first appearance can be found here:

http://superman.ws/tales2/lsh/

 

The same site has various other science fiction-y Superman stories, include the first appearances of Brainiac and Mon-El, plus the first of the very cool "Nightwing and Flamebird" stories, where Superman and Jimmy Olsen get to play Batman and Robin in Kandor.

 

Alan

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by assault

People seem to be forgetting that a significant part of the Legion are people like Phantom Girl, Shadow Lass, Shrinking Violet, Invisible Kid, Dream Girl and so on. Not an attack power between them, but they are serious characters.

 

Then you get people like Lightning Lad, Lightning Lass, Sun Boy, Star Boy, Polar Boy, Cosmic Boy and Magnetic Kid, who are all essentially normals with crunchy attack powers.

 

There are even midranking bricks like Ferro Lad and Colossal Bore.

 

None of this lot are particularly powerful. Sure, you could burn a lot of points building them, but they would largely be wasted. 350 would do nicely, with another 100 points worth of standard equipment (flight rings, etc.) Hmm. So, yes, they would be 450 point characters - tough, but not overwhelming.

 

Oh, and some of the "silly" characters could be surprisingly nasty too, so just watch out.

 

Alan

 

My point is that most players in a LSH game would rather not play the low-level members. Ditto for an Avengers or JLA-type set-up.

 

"LSH? Cool! I wanna play Mon-El?"

"Nope, sorry, can't do that...too powerful."

"Ah, man...how about Timber Wolf? Wildfire? Supergirl? Brainiac?"

"no, no, no, and maybe...just tone down the force field, and don't give him too many skills or make his gadget pool too big."

 

"man, this sucks."

"Ineffectual Lass is still available!"

"F#$@ off."

[assault]

Originally posted by megaplayboy

My point is that most players in a LSH game would rather not play the low-level members. Ditto for an Avengers or JLA-type set-up.

 

It depends if they are fans of the titles in question, IMHO. A lot of the high powered characters are as dull as rocks.

 

Give me Cosmic Boy, any day.

 

Alan

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by assault

It depends if they are fans of the titles in question, IMHO. A lot of the high powered characters are as dull as rocks.

 

Give me Cosmic Boy, any day.

 

Alan

 

That's a writer decision and has little to do with the relative power of the characters:)

 

If Mon-El had as much personality as Cosmic Boy, the lesser-powered characters would be completely overshadowed in the story by the more capable ones.

 

Ditto for Thor on the Avengers, Supes (to a lesser extent) on the JLA, etc.