Campaign Help Needed: Modern Fascism

[Lord Liaden]

I'm inclined to think that South Africa would be a difficult place to stage a coup restoring white minority rule, especially under fascist supervillains, without the world community intervening. The country is too important to the economies of all the southern African states, and the current representative government has too much international recognition and symbolic influence.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Agent X

Always throw in a special resource that allows the small country to have influence disproportionate to its size and population.

 

Have no fear, whatever nation is chosen will have a previously undescovered supply of *insert name of super-metal here*

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I'm inclined to think that South Africa would be a difficult place to stage a coup restoring white minority rule, especially under fascist supervillains, without the world community intervening. The country is too important to the economies of all the southern African states, and the current representative government has too much international recognition and symbolic influence.

 

Yes... I agree. But on the other hand... loads of gold and diamonds...

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by MisterVimes

Have no fear, whatever nation is chosen will have a previously undescovered supply of *insert name of super-metal here*

 

Perhaps it could be a superpower-inducing material like "kelvarite" from Champions Universe - very useful for breeding those ubermenschen.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Perhaps it could be a superpower-inducing material like "kelvarite" from Champions Universe - very useful for breeding those ubermenschen.

 

Now that is a FINE idea... Gracias

[Agent X]

South Africa would be hard to explain the lack of a strong reaction.

 

South America makes more sense if you really must go for a "real world nation."

 

I still advocate a fictional country. The advantages of producing story potential in the history of a fictional country and the ability to mold everything to your needs is very helpful.

 

May I suggest another plot twist: Have the Warlord and the War Machine become dominated by Ultra and his cohorts. The Flying Fortress would be very helpful in conquering a country.

[Agent X]

They could even go for the following:

Cause islands to form along an oceanic faultline. Use cloning and recombinant DNA to produce a population quickly. The cheesiest thing is the artificial "growth spurts" needed for such cloning to have a dramatic impact. You throw this into the mix and you highlight just how powerful the technology these UberNazis could have (assuming you want them to have it.)

[Gary]

How about Switzerland? With their strict adherence to neutrality, it would be extremely difficult for the rest of the world to intervene if a strong charismatic leader legally took over. The racial stock is perfect for Ultra's purposes as well, and they did have a decent number of Nazi sympathizers in WW2.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Agent X

South Africa would be hard to explain the lack of a strong reaction.

 

South America makes more sense if you really must go for a "real world nation."

 

I still advocate a fictional country. The advantages of producing story potential in the history of a fictional country and the ability to mold everything to your needs is very helpful.

 

May I suggest another plot twist: Have the Warlord and the War Machine become dominated by Ultra and his cohorts. The Flying Fortress would be very helpful in conquering a country.

 

I had not considered adding them to my Home-Brew... but now that you mention it.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Agent X

They could even go for the following:

Cause islands to form along an oceanic faultline. Use cloning and recombinant DNA to produce a population quickly. The cheesiest thing is the artificial "growth spurts" needed for such cloning to have a dramatic impact. You throw this into the mix and you highlight just how powerful the technology these UberNazis could have (assuming you want them to have it.)

 

I do... and I'll take that under advisement...Hmmmm

*scribbles furiously*

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Gary

How about Switzerland? With their strict adherence to neutrality, it would be extremely difficult for the rest of the world to intervene if a strong charismatic leader legally took over. The racial stock is perfect for Ultra's purposes as well, and they did have a decent number of Nazi sympathizers in WW2.

 

And they have tons of cash... DOH! Now I have several ideas... *pulls out hair*

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X

South America makes more sense if you really must go for a "real world nation."

 

Except that its in the USs backyard. We don't mind normal junta coups in inconsequental bannana republics, but how would we react to one pulled off by superhumans?

[Kristopher]

Regarding European candidates for Ultra to legitimately be elected in: Based on internal politics over the last 20 years, Austria is a much better candidate than Switzerland.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by D-Man

Except that its in the USs backyard. We don't mind normal junta coups in inconsequental bannana republics, but how would we react to one pulled off by superhumans?

 

Hmm... that's a reasonable objection. The United States does tend to treat the Americas as its sphere of influence. OTOH the U.S. has generally ignored activities there that don't impact directly on its interests - having nothing to do with the drug trade, or not part of the "worldwide communist conspiracty." I'm not sure how seriously the American government would take the takeover or creation of an apparently third-rate country by apparent crackpot fascists - at least before it was nearly too late.

 

Of course, if the state in question were in Africa few of the world powers would pay any attention to what went on there for a long time (if history is any indication). Mind you, an African state taken over by white supremacists is going to face great hostility from its neighbors; it's just too hot-button an issue now over most of the continent. For the same reason I doubt that such a group could take power democratically.

 

Europe is perhaps a more reasonable prospect for a lawful takeover. In fact there has been a disturbing resurgence of pseudo-fascist sentiments in Austria in recent years; shrewd manipulation by supervillains with appropriate mind-influencing powers might tip popular sentiment there behind them. You'd have to be prepared for that country to become something of an international pariah, which would have a detrimental effect on the economy at least in the short term. Inflation, unemployment and trade deficits definitely undercut a leader's popular support.

[Trebuchet]

The only major difference between fascism (national socialism) and communism (international socialism) is the dispensation of private property. One controls it, the other takes it. And their method of contol are virtually identical (Secret police, labor camps, total control of all media, etc.).

 

I like the idea of an elected leader. Make the guy charismatic as hell, have him run for office legitimately (while his Nazi goons stomp opposition party member's heads), select a scapegoat group to blame (Corrupt official are always good), and let him legally seize control just like Hitler did.

 

That's what happened in my campaign. My universe's biggest villain, the Emerald Mage (1750 points of bad attitude and a 300 point Cosmic VPP; formerly known as Quetzlcoatl amongst other aliases) was legally elected President of Columbia after promising to clean up the drug cartels and corrupt officials. He succeeded, and is now one of the most popular rulers in South America and is now working towards a merger of Columbia and Venezuela, with the short-term goal of creating a "United States of South America". All the while our heroes have watched helplessly because he was legally elected. They can't expose his true identity because he also knows theirs.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

The only major difference between fascism (national socialism) and communism (international socialism) is the dispensation of private property. One controls it, the other takes it. And their method of contol are virtually identical (Secret police, labor camps, total control of all media, etc.).

 

"National socialism" was a very poor choice of names on the part the Nazi party. There are major ideological differences between fascism and communism. From the outside, they can appear very similar, though, in that they're both systems of totalitarian government. But, from that angle, theocracies and autocracies appear much the same way.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Kristopher

"National socialism" was a very poor choice of names on the part the Nazi party. There are major ideological differences between fascism and communism. From the outside, they can appear very similar, though, in that they're both systems of totalitarian government. But, from that angle, theocracies and autocracies appear much the same way.

National socialism was quite aptly named. The core philosophy of fascism is that the collective "people" supercedes any individual rights and all things done by the State are collectively willed by the people. Communism substitutes "workers" for "people," which is really not much of a difference IMHO. I consider the real differences between fascism and socialism/communism to be rather minor, especially since both sprang form the same philisophical wellspring (Kant) and the real world practices of each are so similar. But to non-believers the differences between Shi'a and Sunni Muslims are also apparently trivial. Obviously those differences are big enough for them to kill over.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

The only major difference between fascism (national socialism) and communism (international socialism) is the dispensation of private property. One controls it, the other takes it. And their method of contol are virtually identical (Secret police, labor camps, total control of all media, etc.).

 

I like the idea of an elected leader. Make the guy charismatic as hell, have him run for office legitimately (while his Nazi goons stomp opposition party member's heads), select a scapegoat group to blame (Corrupt official are always good), and let him legally seize control just like Hitler did.

 

That's what happened in my campaign. My universe's biggest villain, the Emerald Mage (1750 points of bad attitude and a 300 point Cosmic VPP; formerly known as Quetzlcoatl amongst other aliases) was legally elected President of Columbia after promising to clean up the drug cartels and corrupt officials. He succeeded, and is now one of the most popular rulers in South America and is now working towards a merger of Columbia and Venezuela, with the short-term goal of creating a "United States of South America". All the while our heroes have watched helplessly because he was legally elected. They can't expose his true identity because he also knows theirs.

 

Sounds like we've had very similar 'world changing' ideas. As far as the election, I figure that Ultra witnessed Hitler do it and was near the top of the Nazi High Command (being Metahuman and all) and learned quite a few tricks from Goebbles... etc.

[Arthur]

Well, the definition of "fascism", IIRC, is simply that the needs of society are more important than individual rights in as many areas as possible. In order to understand fascism, you would have to imagine a country wherein, for example, the rights of citizens to enjoy themselves with recreational drugs in their own homes is outlawed, and the reason given is "for the good of society". I realize that is a horrifying concept, and no country that is even remotely free could ever even consider that level of control of the private lives of its citizens.

 

There would also be numerous regulations, all "for the public good", but really for generating revenue and controlling the populace. For instance, absurdly low speed limits set so that driving without constantly looking at your speedometer is enough for the average person to be ticketed, and the average driver feels fear when a law enforcement officer is in their rear-view mirror.

 

There would be seizure of assets of suspected criminals without trial, merely on accusation, with no proof required.

 

Things that are taken for granted in a free society, such as the right to work for a living, would be subject to stiff taxation. Citizens would routinely have to submit bodily fluid samples in order to be hired, to be sure they weren't using any proscribed substances in their "free" time (I know this sounds scary, but it's just fiction).

 

Etc.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by MisterVimes

Sounds like we've had very similar 'world changing' ideas. As far as the election, I figure that Ultra witnessed Hitler do it and was near the top of the Nazi High Command (being Metahuman and all) and learned quite a few tricks from Goebbles... etc.

I originally considered having the Emerald Mage take over Spain, Italy, or Portugal (He speaks all Romance languages plus several ancient tongues, but not English). But I rejected those because they were NATO members and the US would be much more likely to intervene.

 

Columbia was perfect as a base of operations (He originally tried seizing Belize by force, but was thwarted by the PCs). He cleaned up the drug cartels and marxist insurgents and now the US government thinks he's the best thing to hit South America in 50 years. And the massed adulation of his countrymen gives him enormous amounts of manna to power his spells. The PCs he considers little more than "quality control". He wants to bring humanity to a golden era of peace and prosperity, with himself as it's eternal ruler. He's charismatic, patient, immortal, and extremely powerful. He will, of course, eventually rule the entire world. It is, after all, his destiny.

[assault]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

The only major difference between fascism (national socialism) and communism (international socialism) is the dispensation of private property. One controls it, the other takes it.

 

No, there is a fundamental difference.

 

Fascism is a means of preserving the pre-existing patterns of property ownership, while communism seeks to radically change it.

 

That means, for example, that Nazi Germany was run on behalf of companies like Krupp and Ford, while a hypothetical communist Germany would have nationalised them. That's _why_ Krupp and Ford supported the Nazis - to crush the communists!

 

This is a hot-button topic, so I won't comment further.

 

As for likely candidates for takeover: the main problem is, of course, that the target is most likely already going to be in somebody else's "sphere of influence". This would mean that the existing power would have to be initially willing to support the new regime, or at least unable to do much about it.

 

It can't be too significant, economically, or it wouldn't be handed over to loose cannons, unless the loose cannons were operating behind more respectable proxies. Of course, it could (should) become more economically significant, once the presence of "super-stuff" is detected, or at least openly admitted.

 

I can't see a new country being established from "unoccupied" land, since there's no such thing, and the residents of "unoccupied" lands tend to get a bit irritated when they get invaded. So, that scraps the "Aryan homeland" idea, IMHO.

 

I would go with a fictional country. Of course, that usually does mean cutting some bit out of a real world country, but that's easier than trying to do it in-game. Alternatively, draw some islands onto the map.

 

The idea of artificially creating some in your gameworld is OK, too, even though its been done before. (Malachite!) In fact, this might be the best, since even fictional countries or islands logically should be "of interest" to someone.

 

In any case, of course, any government that gets set up would have to be recognised by other governments. Without that, the diplomatic immunity thing wouldn't apply.

 

I don't know. It's tricky.

 

The best option might be to have the Nazis being a power behind the scenes, perhaps with one being "democratically" elected, and others being appointed as diplomats by a legitimate government. Of course, diplomats can, and regularly are, expelled from their host countries, and if they systematically engage in illegal activities, diplomatic relations could be cut off. Of course, that could jeopardise access to "super-stuff", but there still would be a point where relations would be broken off, and efforts put into place to remove the "unacceptable" government.

 

In fact, any PCs who interact with such governments would probably be best off feeding evidence against them to outfits like the CIA. That way, they become deniable sources, and can possibly weasel out of any issues with their secret identities.

 

I dunno. I'd really like to play in a game like this. Smash the Nazis! Yeah. Assault would get into that. Of course, he probably wouldn't like the government that replaced them, either...

 

Alan

[assault]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Columbia was perfect as a base of operations (He originally tried seizing Belize by force, but was thwarted by the PCs). He cleaned up the drug cartels and marxist insurgents and now the US government thinks he's the best thing to hit South America in 50 years.

 

Well, in my world, "clean(ing) up the drug cartels and marxist insurgents" wouldn't be quite so simple... The cartels would try to find themselves new corrupt relationships to carry on as before, or move somewhere else. The Marxists would probably regroup and return, possibly with sympathetic supers on their side, or, more likely, in a more covert manner.

 

Of course, in my world, there is an unspoken agreement that minimises the amount of metahuman involvement in international conflicts. This agreement goes out the window when supervillains start taking over countries. Respectable superheroes start changing into the other costumes they keep at the back of their closets...

 

Alan

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by assault

No, there is a fundamental difference.

 

Fascism is a means of preserving the pre-existing patterns of property ownership, while communism seeks to radically change it.

 

That means, for example, that Nazi Germany was run on behalf of companies like Krupp and Ford, while a hypothetical communist Germany would have nationalised them. That's _why_ Krupp and Ford supported the Nazis - to crush the communists!

 

This is a hot-button topic, so I won't comment further.

The fact that you can even say such things as "Nazi Germany was run on behalf of companies like Krupp and Ford" shows me exactly how little you know about actual Nazi ideology. Fascism in it's own way was as radical as communism; it was hardly a friend of the traditional ways. In general the Nazis despised the old school Junkers, industrialists and nobility. Property ownership was a polite fiction under the Nazis; Kruppstahl worked at Hitler's behest not the other way around. Their instructions were to be followed or the result would be...unpleasant. Many business owners, especially of large industrial plants, found themselves little more than well-paid managers. Wars are not profitable when bombs are raining on your factories.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by assault

Well, in my world, "clean(ing) up the drug cartels and marxist insurgents" wouldn't be quite so simple... The cartels would try to find themselves new corrupt relationships to carry on as before, or move somewhere else. The Marxists would probably regroup and return, possibly with sympathetic supers on their side, or, more likely, in a more covert manner.

It wasn't really simple, but it wasn't particularly difficult for my campaign's version of Dr. Destroyer. Of course the cartels relocated elsewhere, but they are no longer Columbia's problem. And it's pretty hard for agents of the drug cartel or marxist groups to remain hidden when the President of the country can cast a spell which tells him if they are lying. His first action upon taking control was to personally purge the Columbian Army's and Air Force's officer corps; he killed several hundred of them who were either corrupt or spies.

 

And he also has some dandy 350 point superhuman followers, the Jaguar Women. Their favorite pastime is removing living human hearts by tearing through the ribcage with their claws.

[Syberdwarf2]

Okay, I haven't read ALL of the posts, so my apologies in advance.....

 

Anyway, why not have them move into a small middle eastern sountry like Syria or Turkey or Iraq. Let them build a repoir with the terrorists groups and then unleash hell on Isreal. they'll have the backing, and if they stay sufficiently behind the scenes, they can move in and set up shop on the remains of the old Isreal. Not to mention that they have much in common with Palestinians in that both groups hate Jews.