Breaking Personality Stereotypes for the Archetypes

[RevHooligan]

Re: Re: Re: Breaking Personality Stereotypes for the Archetypes

 

Originally posted by Klytus

I really love the robot/mystic mix. Normally, magic is portrayed as being anti-tech and the two just don't mix. If this doesn't turn both stereotypes on their head, I don't know what else does.

 

If and when my PCs retrieve the head, I'll have to decide if there was any reprogramming done. Just how mean should I be to my players?

[Klytus]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Breaking Personality Stereotypes for the Archetypes

 

Originally posted by RevHooligan

If and when my PCs retrieve the head, I'll have to decide if there was any reprogramming done. Just how mean should I be to my players?

As a long-time GM, it is my experience that there is no such thing as being too mean to the players. Especially if the cruelty makes sense in context, is not arbitrary, and makes for a more interesting story.

[Seraphim]

Energy Blasters

 

If I remember correctly Black Bolt is one of the most powerful Energy projectors on the planet. But he dares not talk as he may destroy mountains with barely a whisper.

[bcholmes]

Re: Breaking Personality Stereotypes for the Archetypes

 

Originally posted by Hermit

Martial Artist- Are there many blue collar Martial Artists? Average joes who aren't into zen? I guess Dirty Infighters would be that sort. Maybe I'm missing some options here.

 

A martial artist whose abilities all have the special-effect of "dumb luck". Perhaps only when the character is drunk?

 

Or a broody martial artist with a deathwish. Tired of being one of the world's foremost martial artists, but has reflexes so well-trained that it's impossible for the character not to block incoming attacks.

 

Patriot- Has anyone made a Patriot who challenges his or her own government regularly? Participating in rallies and such? I had a concept called "Defiant" that did just that. I think it was fairly original, but I could be wrong. Mind you, given the Avatar part of Patriots, anything COULD be done really.

 

I keep thinking about doing a Captain America-like character whose values never caught up with modern era. He was the greatest soldier in WWII, and Korea. Broke up civil rights protests in the sixties. Carried hippies out of sit-in protests. Is appalled by gays and lesbians.

 

Powered Armor- Scientific minds, and playboys often seem to be the norm. I've seen soldiers placed in suits. I don't recall many rebels here either though. After all, to get a power suit you normally have to either be part of the establishment (Wealthy member able to dictate agenda) or given suit BY the establishment ("You will be testing the..." ) . This allows for visionaries with their own agendas, or soldiers doing their duty, but the rebel seems often missing. I guess most 'rogue' Powered Armor types become default villains as likely the gear isn't legally theirs.

 

"What? I'm from the 38th Century. I got my power armor at Wal-Mart!"

 

Speedster- Barry Allen was dedicated, a serious scientists; Wally West has been portrayed as a fun loving youth, later Womanizer, before settling down a bit more seriously. Quicksilver is usually cranky (The man wants his cheeseburger-today!). Are there any mellow laid back speedsters? The sort who take their time? I don't recall many, probably because in the comics we WANT to see a speedster zip around. I maybe missing one though.

 

I've always thought that Lightning from the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents had a neat twist on being a Speedster. He ages super-fast when he uses his super-speed, so he uses it sparingly.

 

BCing you

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Re: Breaking Personality Stereotypes for the Archetypes

 

Originally posted by bcholmes

"What? I'm from the 38th Century. I got my power armor at Wal-Mart!"

[*twitch*]

 

Wal-Mart? Still around 1700 years from now?

 

[*twitch*] [*twitch*]

 

AAAAAARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Bricks

 

Originally posted by Doug McCrae

I think you're right. Brick is toughest because they've all been done. The best you can hope for might be one that hasn't be done as much.

 

The Kid. This is a team personality type, represented by Iceman, the Human Torch or Kitty Pryde. I can't think of a brick exemplar. Or go further and have a brick that actually is a child, like 8 years old or something, but on a team of (or at least looked after by) adult superheroes? Now that would be a menace.

Rage from the New Warriors/Avengers was a kid brick. He looked like a grown man, but was either a pre-teen or in the low teens.

 

Originally posted by Doug McCrae

What about a brick with a nerdy Woody Allenish persona? He might lose his nerdiness now he can shove people around.

 

I had the same thought, but thats kind of the Hulk, really.

[Doug McCrae]

Dr. Anomaly: That was a big 'Aaargh'. Talk about Black Bolt.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Energy Blasters

 

Originally posted by Seraphim

If I remember correctly Black Bolt is one of the most powerful Energy projectors on the planet. But he dares not talk as he may destroy mountains with barely a whisper.

Cyclops and Black Bolt are kind of a similar idea, aren't they? One can't look, the other can't speak, for fear of destroying everything.

 

What about a 'brick' so powerful he can't move for fear of destroying the fabric of space-time? Or a psychic so powerful he can't *think*? If he does, our brains will explode.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Dog Soldier

Powered Armor guy that discovers sentient armor rather like the sentient armor of Iron Man (one of my favorite comic series) The armor needs a user and an ordinary blue-collar working man that's down on his luck fits the bill just fine. The new user is bitter about the failure in his personal life and the armor makes it easy for him to get even and get ahead. When the heroes finally encounter him and the armor he may be terrified of the armor but also totally dependant on it. The armor comes with a full set of technical specs and the user is skilled enough at the mechanics of iot that he can keep it going. Of course acquiring funds is easy for an amoral AI in the armor with his weak willed accomplice.

This is kind of sorta X-O Manowar by Valiant. Aric of Dacia was a Visigoth warring on Rome who got snatched up by a Spider-Alien ship who use human beings for foodstock, and then tanks to relativity and stasis pods, he's still around in our time, having passed about a decade subjectively. When he escapes the Spider Alien ship he accidentally dons the control ring for an X-O suit of techno-organic armor, the most sophisticated military hardware the Spider-Aliens have. He destroys the ship and returns to Earth, but in our time. He has the mentality of a barbarian and thinks of the armor as "the good-skin". He uses the "good-skin" to wreak revenge on the Spider-Aliens that have infiltrated human society. The cool thing about X-O Manowar was that he had this super-high-tech armor, but he fought with the mentality of a barbarian. He'd constantly eschew his blasters to get down-and-dirty with the opposition. And he had a penchant for swords. His blasters could level a building, but he'd pull a claymore of his suit and start hacking things. He was also difficult to deal with even by other "heroes". He was really standoffish and arrogant, and had a very prickly sense of honor. Its like "Whoah big guy; no offense!!!!!" as he'd misconstrue modernisms that didnt jive with his world view.

[Markdoc]

Personally, I love "anti-stereotype" characters.

 

Some I've done include:

 

Blue collar martial artists:

 

Max Maximum - the Jamaican man-mountain. A martial artist whose style was wrestling, spiced up WWF style.

 

Geordie du Beque - martial artist from the Glasgow slums - he gets by on general toughness and uncanny good luck rather than a mastery of Ki :-)

 

Valiant! - a brick type with a nerdy base personality: his quirk is that he can transform into a brick (all powers are OIHID) - but that his Hero form considers his "normal form" a hopeless loser and his normal form considers the Hero form a dangerous psychopath who's going to get them both killed... (I admit I lifted the idea at least in part from the Miracle Man series).

 

I have also done the "machine mystic" shtick, with a seven-armed, spellcasting robot - but again can't claim too much originality: I just fused Spiral (from the X-men) with Deadlock (from ABC warriors)

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

OK, quick note: I HATE THEME GROUPS. I find them contrived and silly. However, just some cross-stereotype ideas:

 

I find it a little unimaginative to just reverse polarities on archetypes; too simple and self-referential. Think of Baron Munchausen (the movie), it kind of pokes fun at this; youve got the "I want to be dainty" feminine hulking brick, the lazy speedster, the super hearing guy that has to use an ear horn, the hawk-eyed sniper that needs thick glasses. They're cariacatures basically.

 

Having said that, here are some attempts at stereotype busters:

 

Bricks: The stereotypical brick is big, often but not always hulking. They are strong and tough, and usually good brawlers. Archetypical bricks include the Hulk (Berserker), Thing (Monstrous), Superman (Paragon), Shaw (Absorber), Juggernaught (Mystic), Thor (God). Some clever variations have included the idea of superstrength as a function of TK, and most of the Superman imitators tend to fall into this category. Power set aside, I dont think there is a real common stereotypical personality to be found there, aside from a certain confidence all of them share engendered by the knowledge that very few things can hurt them. However, the perception of many people is that bricks are steadfast, stalwart, cocksure, and dependible. You know where a brick is coming from, and few of them move so fast you cant see where they are going. As a twist on this, what about a brick that is unreliable, inconsistent, random.

 

Im thinking a character with attenuated powers, heavy activations, maybe even a partially NCC VPP of powers that changes from day to day. A character that is not in complete control of thier powers. Since a brick is supposed to get in close and pound things, this randomness would force such a character to jump thru all sorts of hoops and employ all sort of innovative tactics to compensate for thier unreliableness. In the HERO System such a character would be frighteningly fragile on some occasions, and terrifyingly powerful on others (due to the characters powers having low RC's).

 

Along the same lines, a Nuerotic brick might be interesting; totally unpredictible and prone to "enrages".

 

Check out Steeljack from Astro City (one of my favorite characters) for a brick suffering from apathy and depression. At one point he just lies down and lets someone pound on him until they get tired and leave rather than fight back. The human punching bag, morose and uncaring might be an interesting brick. Kind of a Thing-Marvin cross

 

 

Martial Artists are typically aggressive perfectionists or koan zen-spouting philosophers. Then youve got the pop-culture insta-kung fu master who get all the kewl tricks without all the meditation and study. And of course my favorite the scrappers who just know how to fight without all the fancy shmancy theory; apply fist to jaw, repeat. The basic idea however is that a MA is up close like a brick but quick and dodgy like a speedster and sometimes spooky and otherworldly like a Mystic or Mentalist. Personally, I see MAs as more of a meta-archetype than a full on archetype, as they are basically a combination of differing degrees of other archetypes. Same with Patriots. Personality wise however MAs are percieved to be skilled, dedicated, finesse based. THe obviousl tact is to just reverse that, but theres got to be something better than going the anti-typical stoner route or the reluctant samurai route.

 

Im thinking a MA that is driven to fight even though he has no real desire to do so. His survival instinct drives him to do it, like the guy in Armour by Steakley. Maybe he's addicted to fighting, like many of the dudes in Golden Harvest productions seem to be. With a literal Dependence on Fighting; if he doesnt fight he gets ill, or suffers severe pain. An OIHID MA possessed by the Spirit of a warrior (or warriors) may be fierce in battle thanx to the spirits riding him, but Accidental Changes back to a norm if he refuses a fight or doesnt fight every so often. A MA might run all of his powers off of an END pool with a REC that only works in combat. Etc.

 

Blasters are ranged combatants usually, but also usually have a wider range of manipulation abilities, or some speedster aspects via flight. Any chump can throw something or use a gun; a blaster is more than that -- either by virtue of severity or broader capabilities. Blaster are usually aloof, keeping distance between themselves and others. They tend to be direct, as thier powers are usually focused, and they tend to have a wider view of whats going on, leading to many blasters to also be in leadership positions. Blasters tend be good for a big directed hit and tend to be very precise.

 

From a personality standpoint, what about an blaster that is more of an absentminded professor, focusing on the scientific applications of his/her power, and not combat oriented at all. The hotheaded blaster has been done to death, but what about a blaster that is indecisive, or worse indiscriminant, or emotional in a not-usefule way, like easily frightened. Of course you could always do the old EBer that wants to be a brick, or EBer that acts like a MA kind of deal, but what about going hyper-exaggerated and making a Blaster whose got an inferiority/perfectionist attitude about his powers; always second guessing himself and "replaying" encounters, pestering other teammembers for analytical assessments on what he should have shot instead, whether he should have used more or less force, or a different blast effect; how can he improve himself, etc....annoying but funny

 

Mentalist are usually serious and sonorous. And bald. Unless they are hot chicks, in which case they have red or purple hair . Mentalists tend to be sit back and think things thru types, taking fewer actions but opting for more inobviouse tacts often. The obvious and easy anti here is the impulsive mentalist, who favors ego blast over Telepathy, but lets go deeper than that. Personality wise, mentalists tend to be indecisive if they dont have all the facts; used to having access to massive amounts of info by way of ESP and Telepathy, they NEED that info to make decisions.They tend to come off as wallflowers, collecting data and watching before making a move. What about an aggressive mentalist that does the opposite; forces others to react to him, with a Darkness vs mental awarness, Danger Sense, and Lighting Reflexes and/or a high dex & DCV coupled with an Abort heavy Martial art set ("How can you fight me when I already know what you are going to do?"), Various Analyzes, Find Weakness, Sense Vulnerability Discrim Analyze, and a variable SFX EB defined as "potent mental illusions" tunable to whatever they are vulnerable to (pilfered from thier minds via the custom detect)....basically a practical-application mentalist (with aspects of MA/Speedster) with a hard-nosed can do attitude, impatient type-a personality.

 

Mystics are pretty done, but personality wise youve got the learned master, cocky apprentice, and path-of-least-resistance-leads-to-evil archetypes in just about any mystic scenario. The Jedi schtick does about as good of a job as any playing to that stereotype. Parodys of this abound, with the incompetant master, bumbling apprentice, and so on. For a personality againt type, how about a mystic master that tries to debunk magic; he studies it and manipulates it, but all the while he is catalouging, categorizing, and applying the scientific method to it. He might even go so far as to cross into gadgeteer-land, building tech-like gadgets that exploit a "mystic law" in a reliable & consitent fashion. Howabout a Mystic that is really not a mystic at all, but instead has some actual mutant power or superhuman ability that they hide as "magic" -- kind of a twist on the charlatan fortune teller bit. Or a powered individual with powers that are influenced by thier hardcore superstition but which are not actually mystical in the slightest, like Tarot of the Hellions or Fortunato of Wildcards.

 

The Speedster: of course, the lazy speedster is a popular anti-twist. However, lets look at some of the other elements of the speedster. Recently, I played a speedster who was literally hyperactive and hypertense; a real spaz case, like bobcat goldthwait on speed.....more speed. Some characters have the power of a speedster, but dont playout as such, like Superman and his many clones; Samaritan from Astro City kind of pokes fun at this; he's way faster than anyone else around, but he's thought of as a flying brick. Speedsters tend towards the rushed, the impatient, the hyperactive, and the impulsive. What about a speedster who is instead a thinker; a brilliant scientist able to use his hyper-speed to duplicate experiments normally done in a lab might be interesting. Or what about a super-tactician who used thier super-fast thinking to effectively deduce the logical outcome of all actions; a speedster fortune teller. Or what about a speedster with no real offensive capability; in power terms hes actually Desolid, with 10 to 15 STR Affects Physical, and instead uses his speed in a support role, saving civilians, catching knockbacked heroes, maybe even with a Healing ability (accelerates the recipients natural healing process) -- instead of the usual in-the-thick-of-things 1st-one-on-the-scene speedster, youve got a background hugging super-doc with a Hypocratic Oath obsession.

 

Just some ideas......

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Markdoc

Geordie du Beque - martial artist from the Glasgow slums - he gets by on general toughness and uncanny good luck rather than a mastery of Ki :-)

'du Beque' would be an unusual surname in the Glasgow slums, to say the least.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

You know where a brick is coming from, and few of them move so fast you cant see where they are going. As a twist on this, what about a brick that is unreliable, inconsistent, random.

 

Im thinking a character with attenuated powers, heavy activations, maybe even a partially NCC VPP of powers that changes from day to day.

That's a really good idea (preceded by a really good analysis). I think I might just apply the randomness to their strength and toughness though, otherwise they really stop being a brick.

 

There's only one character I can think of like this... Captain Caveman!

[Supreme]

Got to get right back to deep space, so I haven't got time to read all the posts. Great topic, Hermit!

 

My immediate thoughts:

 

The most common brick type is the dumb brute. But, as you said there are so many types. The one I haven't seen, personally, is the mentally unstable brute. By "unstable" I mean one that lives in a quasi-fugue state like Quasiman from Wild Cards or something. I realize that many would call the Hulk's classic Jeckyl and Hyde personality unstable, and it is. However, I'm talking about a single personality that is not always quite... there.

 

Blue Collar MAs are VERY rare. They are usually very stiff, disciplined types because of the training they're expected to have undergone. When I made my own "ultimate" MA character recently, I made him deliberately against such type. The "Iron Cricket" was someone who had his MA "downloaded" by a mystical means. He was not the originally intended recipient. Now he has a host of moral expectations put on him by the organization that had hopes of producing a truly great hero. They constantly challenge him to stay on the straight and narrow, while he challenges their ideas about free will and heroism. Iron Cricket's demeanor is one of the bon vivant type, like the Blue Beetle.

 

My biggest beef with the way MAs are so often played is that people think that only exotic locales, such as Southern Asia are fit places for super-types to study martial arts. Hasn't anyone ever heard of boxing? How about wrestling? How about gymnastics? HERO's current system of martial arts is simply the best I've ever seen in over 20 years of RPGing. It's incredibly flexible.

 

That's all I've got for now.

[Dog Soldier]

The American Tae Kwon Do Association headquarters is in Little Rock, Arkansas. Why not a "good ole boy" martial Artist? I know I've got some in the school that I train and instruct at:D

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Dog Soldier

The American Tae Kwon Do Association headquarters is in Little Rock, Arkansas. Why not a "good ole boy" martial Artist? I know I've got some in the school that I train and instruct at:D

Another example of my point about Asian-only martial arts...

Hey, here's a personality type that never gets used for male super-heroes: effeminate!

"My word, Dr. Destroyer! That armor is SO 80s!"

[Dog Soldier]

One of my friends in college was a gay guy that was HUGE! 6'4" about 240# and as swishy as he could be. He got inot lots of fights and seemed to enjoy getting hit.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Dog Soldier

One of my friends in college was a gay guy that was HUGE! 6'4" about 240# and as swishy as he could be. He got inot lots of fights and seemed to enjoy getting hit.

Sounds like Hooded Justice.

[Pegasus]

A few ideas...

 

For the martial artist, a thinker type. He was never actually trained in martial arts, has no specific knowledge of them, but he's an incredibly smart predictor and can counter anything coming in because he saw it about to happen. It would focus on defense, with a NND strikes and find weakness. "It was simply the most logical place to strike him."

 

Energy blaster--here's a conundrum. Cyclops is often seen as the prototypical energy blaster, but powers wise i think he's definitely atypical. I would love to see more energy blasters whose only power is an energy blast. No flight, no force fields, no energy manipulation, just the blast.

 

For gadgeteer, I've been tinkering with a Junkyard Wars inspired hero. Junkyard has no fine skills, his gadgets are huge, clunky, and a maximum of three charges, usually with some activation roll. But he can create anything in ten hours.

 

For the brick, what about someone who feels the pain? S/he takes no actual damage, but getting hit still hurts like hell.

 

For the atypical mentalist, a con-man.

 

I might come up with more given sleep and Coca Cola.

[Dog Soldier]

I think you may have created new archetypes. A Martial Artist, well, s/he studies Martial Art. Someone that doesn't train but relies on some "knack" for fighting may be very effective but that's not a Martial Artist. Gadgets are defined as handy devices, that's what gadgeteers make. Huge, kludgey "Junkyard Wars" things aren't very handy. Again, this would be a new sort of archtype. Interesting:D

[tmutant]

How about a brick who is a coward? The screwball comedy kind of coward. He knows that he is hard to hurt, but is terrified that he is going to run into something that his defenses aren't up to handling. He avoids fighting where ever possible, tries to get others in the group to fight while he stays and answers the phone, and generally fights like Bob Hope, ducking, running and dodging rather than hitting.

 

Mentalist idea from Wild Cards: The guy was revived after dieing. Now he can project the memory of that death so powerfully that it stops the heart of the victim. He also cannot die. Even after decapitation he was regenerating. They cremated the remains, but aren't really sure that he won't grow back from the ashes. Creepy.

 

 

 

 

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by Crisis Energy blaster--here's a conundrum. Cyclops is often seen as the prototypical energy blaster, but powers wise i think he's definitely atypical. I would love to see more energy blasters whose only power is an energy blast. No flight, no force fields, no energy manipulation, just the blast.

Oooo. That reminds me of Tempest from the second ('70s) Doom Patrol. That's all he could do. Really massive EB. Didn't like to use it.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by tmutant

Mentalist idea from Wild Cards: The guy was revived after dieing. Now he can project the memory of that death so powerfully that it stops the heart of the victim. He also cannot die. Even after decapitation he was regenerating. They cremated the remains, but aren't really sure that he won't grow back from the ashes. Creepy.

The character's name was Demise, IIRC.

[MarkusDark]

I once played an ancient Earth Elemental who wielded a light saber and was a Trekkie. Does that count as breaking the mold?

 

 

As he had been 'asleep' for eons, the group decided that the best way to get him up to speed on the 20th century was to sit him in front of a TV. Unfortunately, there was a Star Trek marathon going on...

[Supreme]

Originally posted by MarkusDark

I once played an ancient Earth Elemental who wielded a light saber and was a Trekkie. Does that count as breaking the mold?

As he had been 'asleep' for eons, the group decided that the best way to get him up to speed on the 20th century was to sit him in front of a TV. Unfortunately, there was a Star Trek marathon going on...

I believe Hermit was after breaking personality stereotypes for various super-hero archetypes. Your character idea is a break from the archetypes.

 

Here's another personality-type/archetype mismatch that I haven't seen before: the jokester Patriot. My current GA character is such a character. He likes to tell jokes and hurl insults at the villains to get them to lose their cool.