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Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?


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For an Empress of an exaggerated billion dimensions (it's just about a hundred million), why can she not conquer Earth? Aside from the comic genre reason, what would be some feasible reasons?

 

The first I can think of is that she can't launch a dimensional invasion en masse, because of "the quirky and unpredictable nature of interdimensional travel." So, does this mean there's possibly just one dimensional rift per solar system? Or are dimensional rifts just small?

 

In my current campaign I'm running on HeroCentral, V'han has arrived in a single shark-shaped ship (about a thousand meters or so in length - about the length of an Imperial Star Destroyer) in Earth's orbit. Inside the "belly" of this shift is a huge technological dimensional gate where the invasion ships (about 100 meter diameter disk-shaped) come through one at a time to descend into Earth's atmosphere to invade. So, on the one hand, she has a fleet capable, but on the other hand, it can only arrive piecemeal. (The mother ship can carry four of these ships to begin the opening volley.)

 

Next comes her D-Soldiers, "the backbone of Istvatha V'han's armies." Essentially, they're 3 SPD, 16 DEX, 13/8 D/rD and their 32 round MP weapon does either 10d6 or a 5-shot 6d6 AutoFire. Even though they have a spiked shoulder pad and a sword, they spent no points on them, so those are apparently for decoration and ceremonial purposes. They're built on 157 points. Who do they compare to, though?

 

DEMON initiates are 4 SPD, 15, DEX, 16/10 D/rD, their 16 charge Wands can do 12d6, 6d6 AoE Cone, or 4d6 RKA. They also have Black Magic (with a potential MultiPower attack there) and are built on 250 points. One on one, DEMON seems to win.

 

UNTIL's basic Urban Division Agent is 3 SPD, 15 DEX, 13/8 PD/rPD 12/8 ED/rED and their 2 clips of 32 rounds does 5-shot 10d6 AutoFire +1 OCV +1 Range (They also have an 8d6 back-up pistol and a 1d6 HKA Knife,) and they know UNTIL Combat training. They are built on 245 points. One on one, UNTIL seems to win.

 

VIPER agents (My book is packed up for our move this weekend) IIRC are better than D-soldiers as well. (And it's been mentioned that the V'han hover tank is weaker than the VIPER tank.)

 

Heck, even Millennium City's MARS Units seem to be a close match or better. At 3 SPD, 16 DEX, 17/11 PD/rPD 16/11 ED/rED, they carry 4 clips of 8 charges for a 9d6 standard blaster, and a +3d6 HtH Nightstick and know Police Training MA. They are built on 167 points.

 

So why is this? Was it just a poor write-up of the D-soldiers? To keep it close to the "official CU" ineptitude of her armies, is Earth "super" technology really that much more advanced than all the millions of dimensions she's conquered? (Has she secretly and purposely conquered weak dimensions first?)

 

It has been noted in V'han's write-up that she's been hesitant to invade Earth because of the high concentration/population of super powered individuals; however, it also says she easily has as many super troops as those in CKC, and as powerful.

 

What could be tactical/strategical reasons for V'han not unleashing her full might? If she can unleash 1,000 D-soldiers, why not take out 100 of them and replace them with superbeings?

 

Is it that she's trying to simultaneously take over each galaxy in our universe/dimension at the same time so spreads them out? Is she a "defensive" conqueror, where she prefers to build up and fortify a base (or dimension) before committing all of her forces? Even though she's an Empress, does she rule a type of Democratic Republic where votes must be cast for a full-fledged invasion (sure, she's allowed to send a division to "test the waters," but to use the full might of her military, she must have a successful vote to occur)?

 

Anyone have any useful thoughts on the subject matter?

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?   EndGame MegaBosses are not allowed to overrun the newbie zone.

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Well, I already made a general case for Istvatha V'han's record over on the "Dimensional Conqueror" thread, so I'll refer interested parties to that. ;) As to your specific concerns:

 

If you want to compare published character stats (even though many GMs don't run characters as written anyway), I feel it necessary to point out that the D-Soldiers and the Hovertank were written up before Fifth Edition VIPER, UNTIL, DEMON or Millennium City were published, and even before the real-world military vehicles in The Ultimate Vehicle. As such I would say they suffer in comparison to power creep in those later books.

 

D-Soldiers and Hovertanks being "typical" or "backbone" don't equate to being the only or best resources that Istvatha has to draw on. There's nothing that says she didn't use more advanced tech or superhuman troops in her previous invasion attempt - they just weren't written up.

 

Why would V'han not use overwhelming force? I remember a quotation from a sci-fi novel dealing with an alien invasion: "I could use a ten-ton crane to pick up a paper bag, but it would hardly be an efficient means of getting the job done." To run as much territory as V'han does she should be an efficient manager, and an efficient manager attempts to allocate only as much resources as required to succeed, and as much effort as the reward for the task would warrant.

 

The defenders of Earth could have several tactical options. If you can't defeat an invading army through force, you look for areas of vulnerability. V'han's troops may need stable dimensional gates to pass through, using some type of technology that's vulnerable to raids or sabotage by a clever and resourceful enemy. V'han has too many responsibilities to personally supervise every military campaign, so she has to delegate to proxies. Those proxies could have exploitable weaknesses, such as a signature tactic that can eventually be anticipated, a code of honor that can be twisted to the defenders' advantage, or an actual vulnerability that allows them to be defeated and captured.

 

OTOH the defenders could try to circumvent the invading army altogether. They could cross to V'han's home dimensions to try to steal valuable intel about her plans or how her military technology works. They could engage in covert sabotage attempts, or try to foment a rebellion, distracting V'han's attention from Earth, or giving them a bargaining chip to persuade her to negotiate.

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Also, I would pose that us pathetic Earthlings have the advantage of fighting a defensive battle here. We only have one place to defend, and it's fairly centralized, from a dimensional perspective. So we *can* put everything into its defense. It could well be that, while Earth is a tempting prize indeed, it doesn't measure up to a more pressing need - *staying* the Empress of a Billion Dimensions.

 

Sure, she could waltz right over Earth if she wanted. Snag one dimension.

 

Lose twenty, maybe, to Tyrannon and Skarn *each* in the time it took to mobilize and get the troops back out there.

 

V'han's smart, *and* she's probably the weakest - combat wise - of the various dimension-gobblers out there. But hey, she's got time. Earth wouldn't be the diamond in her tiara, it'd be the agate on her toe ring. Why would she *want* to risk her best troops on Earth, when they can actually work on whittling away at Tyrannon's territory?

 

That aside, V'han *does* have one advantage over just about everybody else. To paraphrase a quote about the US tanks against the German Panzers during WWII.

 

"Sure, one Panzer was worth a dozen of your American tanks. The problem was, there was always a thirteenth one waiting for it!"

 

One on one, DEMON brothers waste D-Soldiers. Problem is, for every Demonhame there are probably a thousand or so units of D-Soldiers waiting for them, potentially. VIPER? Outnumbered a solid 50 to one, and that's if V'han just decides to stretch the troops out for a bit, instead of a concerted invasion. MARS units? Well, they can probably hold their precinct buildings if V'han puts her mind to it, but that's about it. UNTIL? PRIMUS? Assuming they can get around the red tape, they put up a valliant defense... but they're kinda screwed after several *months* of defending.

 

The supers are still necessary, to actually make the necessary strikes to convince V'han it's still not worth it. As for why she doesn't mobilize all her super-troops to counter Earth's forces... see above comment about "we only have to defend one planet, not a billion dimensions."

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

As well if people are using her in a gaming multiverse where there are other Extra Dimensional Orgs, Some of them would definitely cause her to hold back troops in case of counter invasion, cold wars and the like.

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

The first I can think of is that she can't launch a dimensional invasion en masse' date=' because of "the quirky and unpredictable nature of interdimensional travel." So, does this mean there's possibly just one dimensional rift per solar system? Or are dimensional rifts just small?[/quote']

Or less than one per solar system, maybe only a dozen or so per galaxy?

 

In my timeline Earth and Mars, along with their late siblings Orpheus and Tiamat, were created by the Great Old Ones (Lovecraft's starfish-like aliens) and by accident or design the walls between the realities is weaker on those planets, the main reason they are coveted by so many intersteller empires.

 

Another reason is that Humans are extremely contrary. Look at how much trouble the United States is having controlling a country a tenth its size. If the population of Earth concludes that Scorched Earth is their only option, they are capible of exterminating all terresterial flora and fauna. A burned out cinder is not much of a conquest. As V'han is immortal, she can be patient, make an exploritory thrust every decade or so, wait until Earth is more ripe for her benevolent rule.

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

She delegates things out to various "royalty"

 

It turns out the fop who has the pleasure of trying to conquer this dimension in her name is a bit of an idiot and a tactical void. He just can't see to get it right ....

 

Good thing this is basically an out of the way seemingly unimportant dimension, and he's just a kind of useless "prince" under her anyways. This occupies him and keeps him out of her court. . .

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

What do you mean, it isn't conquered? Has the paperwork been misfiled on it?

 

That can happen, you know. A hundred million worlds, some of them get lost in red tape.

 

Now, if the Vogons got involved, you could bet the paperwork would be done.

 

Except during break.

 

No work during break.

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

If you want to compare published character stats (even though many GMs don't run characters as written anyway)' date=' I feel it necessary to point out that the D-Soldiers and the Hovertank were written up before Fifth Edition [i']VIPER, UNTIL, DEMON[/i] or Millennium City were published, and even before the real-world military vehicles in The Ultimate Vehicle. As such I would say they suffer in comparison to power creep in those later books.
Yes, many GMs (self included) don't always run characters as written, but we can't use that as a feasible debate topic. As for D-Soldiers and the Hovertank timeline, that at least accounts for the poor comparison. Perhaps a future publication will give the basic D-Soldiers an upgrade, or explain why they haven't received one.

 

D-Soldiers and Hovertanks being "typical" or "backbone" don't equate to being the only or best resources that Istvatha has to draw on. There's nothing that says she didn't use more advanced tech or superhuman troops in her previous invasion attempt - they just weren't written up.
I undestand that, but I'm thinking from an overall military perspective. Infantry units are the backbone of militaries, despite various special forces, navies and air forces. Having stated that, the backbone infantry soldiers of a successful military should have the best combat rifle available. Either V'hanian troops don't or they do and Earth-tech is better. I'm wanting a feasible answer to this.

 

1 Possibility) Like pre-WW2 Japanese or WW2 Italians, D-soldier blaster rifles have been in service for a long time and are traditional but are outmatched by the dimension they're now going up against.

 

2 Possibility) D-soldiers have the best tech blaster available in all their dimensions. This could explain why Istvatha has so many dimensions, yet has been hesitant to attack our Earth: our one planet has higher (combat) tech than all of her territories.

 

3 Possibility) D-soldier equipment is all made on the throne planet by her own species. This "honor" and tradition have stunted tech leaps.

 

Why would V'han not use overwhelming force? I remember a quotation from a sci-fi novel dealing with an alien invasion: "I could use a ten-ton crane to pick up a paper bag' date=' but it would hardly be an efficient means of getting the job done." To run as much territory as V'han does she should be an efficient manager, and an efficient manager attempts to allocate only as much resources as required to succeed, and as much effort as the reward for the task would warrant.[/quote']While I understand this "theory," I have to say I roll my eyes at it every time I see it in a movie or book from the "bad guys" POV. You also don't kill an elephant with a scalpel. If you're wanting to conquer your enemies, there's no point in nuking them, but there's a reason why "superior firepower" is a necessity. There's a reason why the police have been upgrading their weapons since the "Hollywood Shootout."

 

History has shown those that "allocate only as much resources as required to succeed" have failed more often than succeeded. V'han should know this by now, so she either adheres to it or there's some reason why she won't or cannot.

 

The defenders of Earth could have several tactical options. If you can't defeat an invading army through force' date=' you look for areas of vulnerability. V'han's troops may need stable dimensional gates to pass through, using some type of technology that's vulnerable to raids or sabotage by a clever and resourceful enemy. V'han has too many responsibilities to personally supervise every military campaign, so she has to delegate to proxies. Those proxies could have exploitable weaknesses, such as a signature tactic that can eventually be anticipated, a code of honor that can be twisted to the defenders' advantage, or an actual vulnerability that allows them to be defeated and captured.[/quote']This could make sense, though my feeling is that she does oversee each invasion, even if she doesn't personally attend. When you're immortal, you can make time for such things. Having a different general for each of her attacks could feasibly explain why she has failed in two different attempts (or four if you count the 3000 junk).

 

OTOH the defenders could try to circumvent the invading army altogether. They could cross to V'han's home dimensions to try to steal valuable intel about her plans or how her military technology works. They could engage in covert sabotage attempts' date=' or try to foment a rebellion, distracting V'han's attention from Earth, or giving them a bargaining chip to persuade her to negotiate.[/quote']That's possible, but I don't believe it's "officially" happened.
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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I think some excellent ideas have been mentioned already, but maybe another reason V'han hasn't just cut loose is a combo of Conscience and pride.

 

V'Han is unique among most world conquerers, she truly wants to better the worlds she wants to conquer and believes that her rule is the best thing for everyone. Perhaps, she could easily have the equivalent of nuclear warheads launched into our dimension by the hundreds, but she intends to come as a savior, not a butcher. This causes her to hold back her full forces in mercy that some fools might mistake for weakness.

 

What's more, D troopers are her backbone because they are the common soldier, the standard. They are sent because the glory of victory should belong to only V'Han, and to the 'common V'hanian' so that the people might see they are strengthened by their unity. Sending superagents first diminishes that civic pride ,and might also steal the glory that should belong to the Empress.

 

Indeed, heroes who take the fight to her may find the kid gloves come off. Once in HER domain, imagine the shock of the PCs when they find themselves no longer fighting the 'meek' D troopers, but rather a hundred superpowered beings... and most of them duplicates of themselves from alternate Earths she HAS conquered. What will Defender do when he bumps into General James Harmon, the man who turned on his own nation's government because he knew, KNEW, that only V'Han would have the power to defeat Destroyer and make sure Detroit's fall never happened again, on his, or any other Earth?

 

And there's possibly a whole squadron of Defender variations in his platoon ready to assist the General in repelling the Champions to boot.

 

Conquer Earth? Probably already done a hundred times over. Conquer the PCs' Earth? She'll get around to it, but she won't abandon her ethics and pride to do it. She has all the time in the universe after all.

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

That's possible' date=' but I don't believe it's "officially" happened.[/quote']

 

Well, the only "official" details we've been given about V'han's invasions are the ones I cited on the Dimensional Conquerors thread. Everything else would have to be filled in by individual GMs, which can be viewed as either a plus or a minus. I consider it a plus overall, because it leaves plenty of wiggle room to address just these kinds of concerns.

 

I view the Galactic Champions era invasion to be the example of V'han having taken all the time an immortal has to plan her strategy, and throwing the resources appropriate to taking on half a galaxy into the fray. In that instance it took the mother of all CU MacGuffins to get her to back off.

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Also, I would pose that us pathetic Earthlings have the advantage of fighting a defensive battle here. We only have one place to defend, and it's fairly centralized, from a dimensional perspective. So we *can* put everything into its defense. It could well be that, while Earth is a tempting prize indeed, it doesn't measure up to a more pressing need - *staying* the Empress of a Billion Dimensions.

 

Sure, she could waltz right over Earth if she wanted. Snag one dimension.

 

Lose twenty, maybe, to Tyrannon and Skarn *each* in the time it took to mobilize and get the troops back out there.

While I think this is a bit of an overstatement, in history there has been some equivalent. The British Empire had many territories but eventually couldn't hold them all. However, I think losing twenty dimensions each to Tyrannon and Skarn would be an exaggeration. First, CKC states that Tyrannon is her only competetion (though, this may have been written before Skarn was created). Secondly, it states that neither she nor Tyrannon can "simply conquer one dimension after another... they both have to be somewhat more subtle and slower-paced than that." Even if she allocates 1% of 1%of her army, that should be enough troops to conquer and hold 10,000 dimensions. I don't believe needing enough troops to defend nor having enough troops to spare for assault is her problem.

 

V'han's smart' date=' *and* she's probably the weakest - combat wise - of the various dimension-gobblers out there. But hey, she's got time. Earth wouldn't be the diamond in her tiara, it'd be the agate on her toe ring. Why would she *want* to risk her best troops on Earth, when they can actually work on whittling away at Tyrannon's territory?[/quote']From what's been stated in CKC, it doesn't seem that she and Tyrannon have actually fought. IIRC, their first fight was mentioned in Champions 3000, but as that book is packed, I can't confirm or correct that statement. And while V'han may be the weakest, unlike Tyrannon, she isn't the one who would be leading the fight. She's more of a background piece (ironically, she's the king while he's the queen if referencing to chess pieces).

 

That aside, V'han *does* have one advantage over just about everybody else. To paraphrase a quote about the US tanks against the German Panzers during WWII.

 

"Sure, one Panzer was worth a dozen of your American tanks. The problem was, there was always a thirteenth one waiting for it!"

See is something I'd like to see explored. Does V'han count on superior numbers as opposed to superior firepower? I would think she would not seeing as to how she's limited when "dimension hopping." As opposed to Xerxes who could essentially mobilize his entire army to war, she's more like the British Empire during the 17th-18th century, IMHO.

 

One on one, DEMON brothers waste D-Soldiers. Problem is, for every Demonhame there are probably a thousand or so units of D-Soldiers waiting for them, potentially. VIPER? Outnumbered a solid 50 to one, and that's if V'han just decides to stretch the troops out for a bit, instead of a concerted invasion. MARS units? Well, they can probably hold their precinct buildings if V'han puts her mind to it, but that's about it. UNTIL? PRIMUS? Assuming they can get around the red tape, they put up a valliant defense... but they're kinda screwed after several *months* of defending.
Here lies the problem(s) though: She wouldn't find DEMON, DEMON would find her troops. And unless she's out to primarily eliminate DEMON, those thousand D-Soldiers won't be waiting around. VIPER she'd have an easier time finding and since VIPER strangely has conventional-like military vehicles, she'd have a real battle on her hand. With an alien invasion occuring, PRIMUS and UNTIL wouldn't have to worry about red tape, and UNTIL can field about 7,000 troops if they gather quickly while PRIMUS just has the US to concern themselves with. As for MARS, this is just the super version of SWAT in one city!

 

But here's the bigger problem: The overall issue isn't V'han vs. DEMON, VIPER, UNTIL, PRIMUS, or MARS, it would be that she'd have to be fighting ALL of them at the same time and they ALL are better equipped than her standard troops are (DEMON and VIPER and UNTIL, and probably PRIMUS have more powerful troops as well). After you consider that, there's the militaries of each nation to contend with (and I'd think China would do a quick kill strategy).

 

I'm not saying it's impossible for V'han to conquer Earth. She should be able to. I'm looking for some explainable, feasible reasons of why she can't, but I want them to be solid reasons, something that *might* actually come up as canon.

 

For example, I'd like to know how many troops she can send forth into a dimension at one time. Is it one ship load or is there a window of opportunity? How many has she been sending through on previous assaults? Has it been 1,000? 10,000? 100,000? And how often? Answers to these could explain a lot. If she can only send 1,000 a day, then she has to build up a base before she assaults. If it's 10,000 once a week, then she has to strike key areas and hope to hold them for a week until reinforcements. If it's 100,000 a month or year, then she's doomed if (when) plans fail. Does the dimensional rift fluctuate so much that she has the potential to send in 1 million troops over one week's/month's time, but "native resistance" tends to thwart her?

 

These are the answers I'm looking for.

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

One reason only. His name is....The Doctor. :D
Bah! Destroyer isn't as tough as one would think. While he does have 20,000 followers of up to 300 points each, I had seven various level supers (an V'hanian Extermination Squad) go up against Destroyer. They defeated him relatively easily (sure, one died and one was injured, but I was disappointed with how the tiniest bit of tactics could defeat Dr. Destroyer).

 

I thought the PCs would have come in to nickel and dime Dr. Destroyer while he offed each of the NPCs, but the PCs didn't even get one hit on Dr. D. before he fell. (Though there was one well-placed called shot to his head that went well. Hmm, someone did an entangle to Dr. D.; I don't recall if that was a PC or NPC.)

 

Speaking of Dr. D., his Standard Destroyer Agents at 200 points are better armed and equipped than D-Soldiers as well.

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Her Imperial Parliament hasn't authorized her the manpower for a surge.
While this may be a sardonic reply to an honest question, it is one of the possibilities that I was considering. While a benevolent Empress (with draconian punishments), does she allow a council to vote on when/where to go to war? And with the number of troops allocated? Perhaps there's a council in each dimension. When one hundred say "nay" there's one that says "aye" and she just bides her time finding the right dimension.

 

This seems a bit awkward though, the more I think about it, only because of the vast number of dimensions she rules. However, if there were say only about a dozen sentient species max per galaxy, then this would be more probable. If there were as many races as in a Star Wars galaxy, well, then there's a problem.

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I'm not saying it's impossible for V'han to conquer Earth. She should be able to. I'm looking for some explainable, feasible reasons of why she can't, but I want them to be solid reasons, something that *might* actually come up as canon.

 

For example, I'd like to know how many troops she can send forth into a dimension at one time. Is it one ship load or is there a window of opportunity? How many has she been sending through on previous assaults? Has it been 1,000? 10,000? 100,000? And how often? Answers to these could explain a lot. If she can only send 1,000 a day, then she has to build up a base before she assaults. If it's 10,000 once a week, then she has to strike key areas and hope to hold them for a week until reinforcements. If it's 100,000 a month or year, then she's doomed if (when) plans fail. Does the dimensional rift fluctuate so much that she has the potential to send in 1 million troops over one week's/month's time, but "native resistance" tends to thwart her?

 

These are the answers I'm looking for.

 

But we can't give those answers to you. We know no more about this stuff than you do, and anything we come up with would be no more valid than your own suggestions.

 

Looking back over the thread, it seems that most of us are not quite on the same wavelength as you. We're giving you "soft" rationales as to motives, style, personnel, tactical possibilities; while you seem to be more interested in "hard" numbers for logistics, materiel, deployment. No one could answer you definitively for lack of more published V'han sources, except maybe Steve Long or Darren Watts.

 

I can only say that all the tactical scenarios you postulate appear reasonable, and since you seem to have a good grasp of those issues, and virtually nothing published to contradict you, you should go with whatever works best for you. :)

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Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Bah! Destroyer isn't as tough as one would think. While he does have 20,000 followers of up to 300 points each, I had seven various level supers (an V'hanian Extermination Squad) go up against Destroyer. They defeated him relatively easily (sure, one died and one was injured, but I was disappointed with how the tiniest bit of tactics could defeat Dr. Destroyer).

 

I thought the PCs would have come in to nickel and dime Dr. Destroyer while he offed each of the NPCs, but the PCs didn't even get one hit on Dr. D. before he fell. (Though there was one well-placed called shot to his head that went well. Hmm, someone did an entangle to Dr. D.; I don't recall if that was a PC or NPC.)

 

Speaking of Dr. D., his Standard Destroyer Agents at 200 points are better armed and equipped than D-Soldiers as well.

 

Actually, I think Twilight was implying the intervention of a certain Time Lord. ;)

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