Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

[Zen Archer]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

To destroy is easy, to conquer is not.

 

Good post.

 

To Steve Long's credit, much of what you cover is mentioned in BotE, with an added focus on diplomatic issues and the possibility of underground activity on other worlds in the Empire as a result of so many resources committed to the invasion.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

And Steve also describes internal forces arrayed against V'han, from secret conspiracies, to organized criminals, to ongoing armed rebellions. Some involve only small groups, while others span entire galaxies.

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

To destroy is easy, to conquer is not.

 

An outright invasion, even if it works, would lead to massive damage to the planet because of the fighting and the potential use of nuclear weapons (Marvel's The Avengers, anyone?). So you might control the planet, but it's going to be radioactive for a few decades.

 

Then you have the underground movement that will spring up and set off bombs, and slow down work, and spy and steal and to all those things that upset your time table.

 

Then you have to consider the surviving superheroes who if they lose the big one will be trying to undo it, and look into time travel or entering alternate dimensions that have been conquered for allies, and information about weaknesses.

 

Suddenly you've got Captain Patriot and the whole Super Hero Crew popping out at the Empress's sweet sixteen party after she's just conquered her first dimension and taking her down before she can blow out the candles.

 

It's just common sense.

That's a blanket argument that falls flat considering she's conquered ~ 100 millions dimensions already. When you break down your points, it's worse.

 

To destroy is easy' date=' to conquer is not.[/quote']Obviously; however, this really has no bearing on one entity wanting to conquer another.

 

An outright invasion' date=' even if it works, would lead to massive damage to the planet because of the fighting and the potential use of nuclear weapons (Marvel's The Avengers, anyone?). So you might control the planet, but it's going to be radioactive for a few decades.[/quote']While this has some merit, it still isn't any sort of obstacle for wanting to conquer Earth, much less a reason for failing to conquer it. The only semblance of rationale for the genre would be that either our Earth is the only one that has ever had nuclear weapons or had so many. A planet being radioactive for decades is of no consequence to an immortal. Chernobyl and the Bikini Islands are full of plant and animal life today, just no humans.

 

An argument could be made that there's a psychological reason why she would prefer to conquer as opposed to obliterate and then colonize. Is there some insecurity she has where she needs to feel loved? Or is it that she has a sadistic side to her where she enjoys seeing opponents suffer until they break and she can manipulate them into obedience?

 

Then you have the underground movement that will spring up and set off bombs' date=' and slow down work, and spy and steal and to all those things that upset your time table.[/quote']That's not a reason for not invading at all, in fact, that's only something that happens after she's conquered a territory. Her text states that it takes her about one Earth year to conquer an entire dimension, so things like this are to be expected.

 

Then you have to consider the surviving superheroes who if they lose the big one will be trying to undo it' date=' and look into time travel or entering alternate dimensions that have been conquered for allies, and information about weaknesses.[/quote']That's an odd assessment, not to mention it still wouldn't happen until after she's conquered the planet/territory/dimension, and only if there are some supers that even have those powers. Aside from Captain Chronos, I'm not aware of any established characters that have such abilities.

 

Suddenly you've got Captain Patriot and the whole Super Hero Crew popping out at the Empress's sweet sixteen party after she's just conquered her first dimension and taking her down before she can blow out the candles.

That's quite a stretch. For all this to even happen, V'han has to have conquered already, so right there it doesn't explain why she cannot conquer Earth. Aside from that, you have requirements where IF supers capable of dimensional hopping and IF they have discriminatory abilities are found and IF supers capable of specific time travel are found and IF enough supers can be found to form an effective task force and IF they can work well together for the time allotment required, then "suddenly" she's going to be attacked? If we go for giggles that somehow her sweet 16 birthday is when she has finished conquering her first dimension and that the "heroes" have pinpointed her location, you're assuming she'd be unguarded or ineffectively guarded. This is someone who had to conquer her planet, then her galaxy then her home dimension, so she's aware of coups and other possibilities, including traveling back in time to warn herself. You're also risking everything on this already-a-long-shot gamble. If you do not absolutely defeat her (which would most likely have to end in her death), you've now notified her of your own dimension's presence and -not knowing how old she truly is- she may attack our dimension in the year 1,000,000 BC where she has no supers to contend with.

 

It's just common sense.

Except nearly none of these are genre-rational reasons of why V'han cannot conquer Earth. You'd have to caveat them into stating these were things happening in an alternate dimension that took invading resources away.

 

Having stated that, the reason I created this thread was for some "hard numbers/facts" that could be used as canon, since there was no source book. Now that I've returned to HERO and that there's a book for her, I was wanting to see what the official reasons were (and they seem to be some of what we had offered previously).

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Hostess Fruit Pies?

I think we've found our answer.

I can't top that.

Follow them up with a volley of cupcakes and Twinkies and she wouldn't have a chance.

Now that this particular obstacle has been removed, I see an invasion soon.

[phoenix240]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I think I am going to have file canonical V'han in the same mental folder as Sanctuary. Interesting ideas that just strain my SOD too much to use.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Quick data points regarding traveling to Istvatha's own past to attack her, or change her history:

 

V'han maintains the Temporal Security Patrol to monitor her empire in search of unauthorized time travelers, or undesired changes to Imperial history. They're reputedly very diligent. But in any case you won't be able to target the Empress during a specific vulnerable moment in her youth, because that period of her life doesn't exist any more. At some point in Istvatha's time travels during the early decades of her conquests, she erased her entire family from the timeline so that they never existed. It's one of the reasons she's cautious about meddling with the past.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I think I am going to have file canonical V'han in the same mental folder as Sanctuary. Interesting ideas that just strain my SOD too much to use.

 

IMO the main credibility issue is how one person could conceivably conquer and govern as much territory as she has. It falls into the same realm as a single Green Lantern protecting 1/3600th of our entire universe. If you're willing to swallow that initial premise, the way Istavatha V'han operates as presented in BOTE is very coherent and logical. Moreso than Sanctuary, in fact.

 

(BTW the current official Champions Universe has an analogue to Sanctuary, the hidden Caribbean resort of Gran Cienelago Island, described in Cops, Crews, And Cabals. It's only for heroes, though, no villains allowed; nor is the world outside the superhero community aware of its existence. So those particular improbabilities have been removed.)

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

At some point in Istvatha's time travels during the early decades of her conquests' date=' she erased her entire family from the timeline so that they never existed. It's one of the reasons she's cautious about meddling with the past.[/quote']Heh, that's very interesting. I take it that was accidental? (Or was it...?)

[Cassandra]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Ba'al in Stargate Continuum had a good idea of taking over the Earth. Come as friends, offering humanity part of a bright future instead of coming as invaders. Of course he did have the benefit of seeing what happened in a previous timeline to those who tried to take over the world.

[Greywind]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Yeah, but we'd already seen V.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Heh' date=' that's very interesting. I take it that was accidental? (Or was it...?)[/quote']

 

Yes, quite unexpected. She had her scientists research ways to bring her family back, but concluded that any such attempt would destabilize her budding empire to a degree she considered unacceptable. As Steve Long put it, "like any bloody conqueror in any dimension in any time, she sacrificed love for power, consigning her family to oblivion forever." (BOTE p. 9)

[phoenix240]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

How did she erase her family and not her own existence?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

The paradox was paradoctored.

 

In a lot of this sort of thing, however, it's presumed that once you actually manage to time-travel, you have a sort of 'causal immunity' to paradox; you can accidentally wipe out the creator of the Great Gizmo of Power (which you now wield) before he can create the GGoP, kill your ancestors, etc. and you and your GGoP are personally immune to the effects. Not so anyone else, but you, yes. This is best explained in the fantastic RPG "Feng Shui".

 

That said, I believe that in Champions, Champions Earth (and its dimension) is the linchpin/breaking point of the entire multiverse. You can only cross the boundaries so heavily, you can only send so much of an invasion force onto Sol III, without stressing that breaking point. And if you go for broke, well, what you 'broke' is the entire multiverse, and cause and effect collapses or everyone gets locked into their current dimension or whatever.

 

So around Champions Earth, you have to walk very lightly, and as a result a comparatively minor force can defeat an army culled from a hundred thousand universes. It's the 300 at Thermopylae, except there's no goat path, and the route up is even narrower than what it actually is, and you can't really sail around the damn thing. To for certain be able to get all the rest of everywhere, you have to take that break point ...

[Clonus]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

]IMO the main credibility issue is how one person could conceivably conquer and govern as much territory as she has. It falls into the same realm as a single Green Lantern protecting 1/3600th of our entire universe.

 

Worse because it's obvious that in the case of the GL a huge amount of stuff just falls through the cracks as you'd expect. V'Haan on the other hand efficiently administrates a hundred million billion galaxies.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

How did she erase her family and not her own existence?

 

The paradox was paradoctored.

 

In a lot of this sort of thing, however, it's presumed that once you actually manage to time-travel, you have a sort of 'causal immunity' to paradox; you can accidentally wipe out the creator of the Great Gizmo of Power (which you now wield) before he can create the GGoP, kill your ancestors, etc. and you and your GGoP are personally immune to the effects. Not so anyone else, but you, yes. This is best explained in the fantastic RPG "Feng Shui".

 

Istvatha V'han is a literally unique being. To date no one has discovered any alternate version of her in any universe or timeline. It's no stretch to assume that temporal phenomena that apply to others don't necessarily apply to her.

 

That said, the Empress has also developed technology to shield objects, or beings, from the paradoxical effects of her meddling in time. On rare occasions she deems it necessary to deliberately change history to remove some existing or potential threat. Usually she wants to preserve some notable relics or individuals that would otherwise be lost, so she encases them in a Time-Shielded Capsule until the changes have been made. These things will then continue to exist even if the civilization or species that created them no longer ever existed.

 

If she can do that for others, surely she can do it for herself, via her powers instead of technology.

[phoenix240]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Istvatha V'han is a literally unique being. To date no one has discovered any alternate version of her in any universe or timeline. It's no stretch to assume that temporal phenomena that apply to others don't necessarily apply to her.

 

 

It is quite a stretch for me and feels kind of Writer's Darling like it just done to eliminate a possible weakness. Its another aspect of the character that just feel too "perfect" and handwave driven for me. But that's a matter of taste not objective opinion. I tend to be pretty low key about things like this. I don't like to get too weird unless I absolutely have to.

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Istvatha V'han is a literally unique being. To date no one has discovered any alternate version of her in any universe or timeline. It's no stretch to assume that temporal phenomena that apply to others don't necessarily apply to her.

It is quite a stretch for me and feels kind of Writer's Darling like it just done to eliminate a possible weakness. Its another aspect of the character that just feel too "perfect" and handwave driven for me. But that's a matter of taste not objective opinion. I tend to be pretty low key about things like this. I don't like to get too weird unless I absolutely have to.

Like the Examiner, Istvatha V'han is essentially a plot device (with stats). Her lack of "others" could be a result of something she did when time traveling or dimension crossing in her youth. (Maybe she accidentally attacked dimension in their past and that somehow prevented her from appearing in other dimensions.)

 

If a GM were interested enough, he could create a campaign with the sole purpose of battling Istvatha V'han. Her existence takes place on a parallel Earth, so perhaps the Earth in each dimension is a cornerstone of each foundation. Remove that one planet and her hold begins to weaken. The PCs could travel to Earths where V'han is attacking, to where she rules and to where rebellions are happening. Maybe the PCs even go to a planet where Destroyer has conquered Earth and they have to convince him to prepare for the external threat instead of simply internal ones. Maybe the PCs can find a way to send Mechanon into one of V'han's dimensions where she's already controlling an Earth. Then there could be the rare planet that Takofanes controls. And if the PCs land on an Earth where V'han hasn't succeeded (and hasn't even appeared), do they rest and go to the next dimension or try and convince these people of this unknown, unseen threat?

 

Should the PCs ever have the rare opportunity to attack her own home dimension, they know that -should she be defeated- there isn't another one of her to take her place.

[psyber624]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Maybe there once were others of her, but she killed them off so that she could become "The One" and that's the source of her power (extending so far through time that even in OUR dimension where she is just a fictitious character we have no knowledge of her alternate dimensional selves)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

It is quite a stretch for me and feels kind of Writer's Darling like it just done to eliminate a possible weakness. Its another aspect of the character that just feel too "perfect" and handwave driven for me. But that's a matter of taste not objective opinion. I tend to be pretty low key about things like this. I don't like to get too weird unless I absolutely have to.

 

I can appreciate that. But it's not like Steve deliberately gave the Empress a Plot Immunity Power. I'm just extrapolating from what he did deal with to address a continuity question. Like many things in the supers genre, it gets weird if you think about it too much, but if you don't it rarely if ever becomes an issue.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

That said, I believe that in Champions, Champions Earth (and its dimension) is the linchpin/breaking point of the entire multiverse. You can only cross the boundaries so heavily, you can only send so much of an invasion force onto Sol III, without stressing that breaking point. And if you go for broke, well, what you 'broke' is the entire multiverse, and cause and effect collapses or everyone gets locked into their current dimension or whatever.

 

So around Champions Earth, you have to walk very lightly, and as a result a comparatively minor force can defeat an army culled from a hundred thousand universes. It's the 300 at Thermopylae, except there's no goat path, and the route up is even narrower than what it actually is, and you can't really sail around the damn thing. To for certain be able to get all the rest of everywhere, you have to take that break point ...

 

Not a canon approach, but certainly a reasonable way to run things. Istvatha V'han does define Earth's universe as one of the "keystone" dimensions of the Multiverse, with many alternate versions of itself. Her home dimension, V'ha, is another. Lots of other dimensions don't have known alternates.

 

Someone once posted a question to the forums asking Steve Long to define what makes Earth so special that all these dimensional conquerors keep going after it. His response was, "because in comics, it always just is."

 

Maybe there once were others of her' date=' but she killed them off so that she could become "The One" and that's the source of her power (extending so far through time that even in OUR dimension where she is just a fictitious character we have no knowledge of her alternate dimensional selves)

 

Again, not canon, but could be fun to run. V'han has just never found another version of herself, or anyone who has. Doesn't mean there isn't one out there somewhere, or that there isn't a causal event for her being singular.

[phoenix240]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I can appreciate that. But it's not like Steve deliberately gave the Empress a Plot Immunity Power. I'm just extrapolating from what he did deal with to address a continuity question. Like many things in the supers genre' date=' it gets weird if you think about it too much, but if you don't it rarely if ever becomes an issue. [/quote']

 

I agree its just a matter of taste. I probably gleefully accept some things that would make allot of other people perplexed. For instance, I have no trouble with the idea that Telios figuratively creating himself by sending information back in time.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Istvatha V'han is a literally unique being. To date no one has discovered any alternate version of her in any universe or timeline.

 

Except for Steve Long, who created several for BotE.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I agree its just a matter of taste. I probably gleefully accept some things that would make allot of other people perplexed. For instance' date=' I have no trouble with the idea that Telios figuratively creating himself by sending information back in time.[/quote']

 

I'm the same way. In general, I have no problem with weird and silly because at some level I find the whole superhero genre weird and silly. Mostly in a good way.

[Susano]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I understand that while V'han's first invasion was turned back by Hostess fruit pies, rumor has her second stopped by cute cartoon ponies.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

pokemon on the battlefield because pokemon are always on the battlefield