Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

[Takaholic]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Her 3rd (and rumor has it the final) Invasion attempt has been deadlocked by a young rascal from a Tokyo suburb... it's still going on, but that Moronboshi kid just won't surrender to her.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Never underestimate the Moroboshi Grip.

[Cassandra]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I'm guessing the Empresses is in the words of Tony Stark "a full tilt diva." One thing that super villains, especially the world or dimensional conqueror types, have in common is they like to show off. Istvatha V'han would announce her presence and her resume of conquest to the peoples of the Earth giving the heroes time to mobilize their defenses, and come up with a plan of action.

 

As Dr. Zarkov noted in 1980s Flash Gordon a dictatorship would have no end of subjects ready for a revolt with the right leadership. Superheroes tend to be natural leaders, and forces that inspire hope for freedom.

[phoenix240]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Does the Book of the Empress go into more detail on the dark side of V'han's rule and why joining her empire is more of a deal with the Devil than a reasonable sacrifice of some freedoms for much greater benefit?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Actually BOTE tends to go in the opposite direction. V'han wants new subjects to recognize the benefits of Imperial citizenship as soon as possible. In many cases they see a rapid rise in their material standard of living, non-military technology level, and often in civil rights. Dimensions that voluntarily join the Empire experience these benefits sooner than those which resist her. The latter typically go through a period of harsh military occupation before the process of integration begins in earnest, to make clear the price of defiance.

 

Istvatha prefers to leave local systems and standards of government and law in place in newly subject territories, to the extent that they don't conflict with Imperial practices. The recently-conquered Ubermenschenwelt is one example. On this alternate Earth, Germany defeated the Allies during WW II, eventually conquering or effectively ruling the entire planet. Germans were the privileged elite, enjoying the greatest wealth and status, all others being second-class citizens. "Undesirables" were either exterminated on a vast scale, or segregated in specific regions. After the V'hanian conquest Germany remains mostly in control, but the Empress immediately terminated its genocidal and segregationist policies.

 

Istvatha V'han combines the carrot with the stick in her approach. Those who oppose her suffer, at least for a while, but those who accept her rule voluntarily generally do experience an increase in security, prosperity, and most measures of standard of living. Many of her post-conquest citizens become her most enthusiastic supporters. It's what makes opposing her a more complex decision than for most conquerors -- and hence a more interesting role-playing opportunity.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Make no mistake, though, V'han can be as ruthless and destructive as she needs to be to achieve her goals. Many worlds that fought her the most relentlessly, which she was unable to conquer, or which she considered too great a threat, were simply annihilated.

 

For example, in some cases where particular ethnic or religious groups on a subject world refuse to cease violence against each other, the Empress has killed everyone in the affected region, then opened it to settlement from elsewhere in her empire.

[phoenix240]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Actually BOTE tends to go in the opposite direction. V'han wants new subjects to recognize the benefits of Imperial citizenship as soon as possible. In many cases they see a rapid rise in their material standard of living, non-military technology level, and often in civil rights. Dimensions that voluntarily join the Empire experience these benefits sooner than those which resist her. The latter typically go through a period of harsh military occupation before the process of integration begins in earnest, to make clear the price of defiance.

 

Istvatha prefers to leave local systems and standards of government and law in place in newly subject territories, to the extent that they don't conflict with Imperial practices. The recently-conquered Ubermenschenwelt is one example. On this alternate Earth, Germany defeated the Allies during WW II, eventually conquering or effectively ruling the entire planet. Germans were the privileged elite, enjoying the greatest wealth and status, all others being second-class citizens. "Undesirables" were either exterminated on a vast scale, or segregated in specific regions. After the V'hanian conquest Germany remains mostly in control, but the Empress immediately terminated its genocidal and segregationist policies.

 

Istvatha V'han combines the carrot with the stick in her approach. Those who oppose her suffer, at least for a while, but those who accept her rule voluntarily generally do experience an increase in security, prosperity, and most measures of standard of living. Many of her post-conquest citizens become her most enthusiastic supporters. It's what makes opposing her a more complex decision than for most conquerors -- and hence a more interesting role-playing opportunity.

 

It seems like not joining voluntarily is pretty foolish, short sighted and self centered. It takes away some power from the established status quo (not all of it if the Naziverse is any example) but brings massive benefits to almost everyone else. She seemed like a pretty good deal in her write up this just makes it more so. It really seems like less a "shades of gray" choice and more "better to reign in Hell" than serve in Heaven."

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

It seems like not joining voluntarily is pretty foolish' date=' short sighted and self centered. It takes away some power from the established status quo (not all of it if the Naziverse is any example) but brings massive benefits to almost everyone else. She seemed like a pretty good deal in her write up this just makes it more so. It really seems like less a "shades of gray" choice and more "better to reign in Hell" than serve in Heaven."[/quote']

 

For the average Imperial citizen in their daily lives, this is practically true. The problem is more one of principle. Ultimately Istavatha V'han is an absolute tyrant, her word incontrovertible law. As long as you comply with her rules you can look forward to a life better than the majority of people on Earth enjoy today. But if you defy the Empress, or even criticize her openly, the penalties are harsh.

[phoenix240]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

For the average Imperial citizen in their daily lives' date=' this is practically true. The problem is more one of principle. Ultimately Istavatha V'han is an absolute tyrant, her word incontrovertible law. As long as you comply with her rules you can look forward to a life better than the majority of people on Earth enjoy today. But if you defy the Empress, or even criticize her openly, the penalties are harsh.[/quote']

 

But from what I gather there isn't that much to criticize. She's like Victor Von Doom except better as she really does live up to the hype not just mostly (Latervia, at least last time I read about it had an excellent standard of living as far as technology and medicine went but was pretty repressive in other ways). It sounds like V'han's Empire doesn't share these failings. She really is a practically perfect leader and essentially immortal so there's not even the problem of less perfect heirs taking over at some point.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

She's certainly better than the other two options.

[Lucius]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I don't know if this point has been raised yet, but I can't help pointing out the close parallels between Istvatha V'han and the Turakain Age's Lord of the Graven Spear.

 

In both cases we have this Evil Overlord who wants to conquer everything and become undisputed ruler and then use that absolutely unlimited power to - well, to make the world a better place generally and make almost everyone a little better off and happier and in some cases even freer than they otherwise would be.

 

 

How dare they! What horrible evil monsters!

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

 

Do we have only these two examples, or are there other similar Evil Conquerors Who Improve Everyone's Lot in other Hero System products or in the works of Long generally?

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

For this post, the palindromedary is playing the Designated Villain.

[Opale]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Woot !

 

When I try to explain that as a superheroine I'd certainly do try to rule the wrold to make it better, and impose a sort of immanent justice on the evil ones, that are too easily left gone by the actual justice, I get ooglings in return.

 

Maybe I'm just a dignified daugther of Vhan, who knows lol

 

However it's fun to play sometimes a character with a good side and this kind of Utopic megalomania.

 

Utopale !

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Make no mistake, though, V'han can be as ruthless and destructive as she needs to be to achieve her goals. Many worlds that fought her the most relentlessly, which she was unable to conquer, or which she considered too great a threat, were simply annihilated.

 

For example, in some cases where particular ethnic or religious groups on a subject world refuse to cease violence against each other, the Empress has killed everyone in the affected region, then opened it to settlement from elsewhere in her empire.

Sounds like Genghis Khan. It's generally not disputed that he was brutal and evil, but if you surrendered up front (or fought valiantly and survived long enough for him to witness) you were brought into the empire. Resistance meant everyone taller than a wagon wheel was killed.

 

But from what I gather there isn't that much to criticize. She's like Victor Von Doom except better as she really does live up to the hype not just mostly (Latervia' date=' at least last time I read about it had an excellent standard of living as far as technology and medicine went but was pretty repressive in other ways). It sounds like V'han's Empire doesn't share these failings. She really is a practically perfect leader and essentially immortal so there's not even the problem of less perfect heirs taking over at some point.[/quote']Looks good on paper. Reality shows that serfs, indentured servants and slaves didn't quite enjoy that "excellent standard of living" as much.

 

Do we have only these two examples' date=' or are there other similar Evil Conquerors Who Improve Everyone's Lot in other Hero System products or in the works of Long generally?[/quote']I'll bring up Genghis Khan again and Earth's largest empire. If you were in his empire, you were well-off. He redistributed the wealth of those he annihilated (anyone who resisted). Iraq of long ago used to be a paradise. They resisted; Khan razed the land, salted the earth and now it's a desert.

[phoenix240]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

 

Looks good on paper. Reality shows that serfs, indentured servants and slaves didn't quite enjoy that "excellent standard of living" as much.

 

Do these things exist in v'han's empire? That would be the dark side I was asking about. From what I can gather from the discussion in this thread those except her rule benefit sooner than those who resist but they still benefit and don't become slaves, servants or face genocide.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

But from what I gather there isn't that much to criticize. She's like Victor Von Doom except better as she really does live up to the hype not just mostly (Latervia' date=' at least last time I read about it had an excellent standard of living as far as technology and medicine went but was pretty repressive in other ways). It sounds like V'han's Empire doesn't share these failings. She really is a practically perfect leader and essentially immortal so there's not even the problem of less perfect heirs taking over at some point.[/quote']

 

Well, as I mentioned upthread, she's ageless, but definitely killable. She expects someone or something to kill her sooner or later, but so far the best plan she's come up with for a transition is to promote the best people she can find to high office, and hope for the best. She's biologically incapable of bearing children, so an heir of her flesh is out of the question; and she doesn't care for cloning herself (her considerable ego and vanity may be a factor there -- she is unique, after all).

 

She also attempts to conquer peoples for whom her rule would have little to no practical benefit, or for whom her empire-building policies would be contrary to their own philosophy: for example, alternate versions of the Mandaarians, who already have a technologically-advanced, Utopian society, and who are firm non-interventionists; or the hedonistic Malvans, whom she either conquers if she can, or destroys simply as a potential threat. She also destroys the Progenitors in any alternate Earth universe, again as a potential threat, even though they exist only to promote sapient life and have no interest in aggression.

 

I gave one example upthread of the lengths Istvatha will go to preserve the peace and order of her dominions. Here's another; she invaded a dimension containing a planet called Koratho, whose aggressive native inhabitants had begun to build an interstellar empire. The entire Korathon race possessed immense physical strength and durability. Imagine a world of billions of Gronds, but with the human range of intelligence. The V'hanian legions were repeatedly devastated in battle with the Korathons. V'han feared that now they knew of other dimensions, they would one day invade her own territories. So she went back in time to prevent the planet Koratho from ever coalescing, thus eliminating the entire Korathon race and history. However, the Empress was unwilling to completely waste such a resource, so before she erased Koratho she captured one notable Korathon military man and preserved him in a Time-Shielded Capsule, then subjected him to extensive brainwashing to make him her loyal servant.

 

Istvatha V'han is extraordinary in many ways, and benevolent in her fashion; but she definitely has her weaknesses, and her darkness. She wields an incredible amount of unchecked power for one imperfect being, but it's never enough for her.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I don't know if this point has been raised yet, but I can't help pointing out the close parallels between Istvatha V'han and the Turakain Age's Lord of the Graven Spear.

 

In both cases we have this Evil Overlord who wants to conquer everything and become undisputed ruler and then use that absolutely unlimited power to - well, to make the world a better place generally and make almost everyone a little better off and happier and in some cases even freer than they otherwise would be.

 

Well, the Lord of the Graven Spear is a rather different case. It's true that if he received obediance and tribute, he left most of his subjects to run their affairs as they saw fit. (He didn't try to make anyone's life better, though, just kept his hands off.) However, part of that tribute was human sacrifices to the evil gods he served. Societies which refused to supply sacrifices, or disobeyed him in any other way, were slaughtered, their cities razed to the ground.

[phoenix240]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Well, as I mentioned upthread, she's ageless, but definitely killable. She expects someone or something to kill her sooner or later, but so far the best plan she's come up with for a transition is to promote the best people she can find to high office, and hope for the best. She's biologically incapable of bearing children, so an heir of her flesh is out of the question; and she doesn't care for cloning herself (her considerable ego and vanity may be a factor there -- she is unique, after all).

 

She also attempts to conquer peoples for whom her rule would have little to no practical benefit, or for whom her empire-building policies would be contrary to their own philosopy: for example, alternate versions of the Mandaarians, who already have a technologically-advanced, Utopian society, and who are firm non-interventionists; or the hedonistic Malvans, whom she either conquers if she can, or destroys simply as a potential threat. She also destroys the Progenitors in any alternate Earth universe, again as a potential threat, even though they exist only to promote sapient life and have no interest in aggression.

 

I gave one example upthread of the lengths Istvatha will go to preserve the peace and order of her dominions. Here's another; she invaded a dimension containing a planet called Koratho, whose aggressive native inhabitants had begun to build an interstellar empire. The entire Korathon race possessed immense physical strength and durability. Imagine a world of billions of Gronds, but with the human range of intelligence. The V'hanian legions were repeatedly devastated in battle with the Korathons. V'han feared that now they knew of other dimensions, they would one day invade her own territories. So she went back in time to prevent the planet Koratho from ever coalescing, thus eliminating the entire Korathon race and history. However, the Empress was unwilling to completely waste such a resource, so before she erased Koratho she captured one notable Korathon military man and preserved him in a Time-Shielded Capsule, then subjected him to extensive brainwashing to make him her loyal servant.

 

Istvatha V'han is extraordinary in many ways, and benevolent in her fashion; but she definitely has her weaknesses, and her darkness. She wields an incredible amount of unchecked power for one imperfect being, but it's never enough for her.

 

Now that was the sort of thing I was asking about earlier. What was the other incident, I missed it?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Now that was the sort of thing I was asking about earlier. What was the other incident' date=' I missed it?[/quote']

 

Make no mistake, though, V'han can be as ruthless and destructive as she needs to be to achieve her goals. Many worlds that fought her the most relentlessly, which she was unable to conquer, or which she considered too great a threat, were simply annihilated.

 

For example, in some cases where particular ethnic or religious groups on a subject world refuse to cease violence against each other, the Empress has killed everyone in the affected region, then opened it to settlement from elsewhere in her empire.

 

I shudder to think of what happens to the Middle East on Earths V'han conquers.

 

There's also the example of how V'han treats criminals who aren't accused of capital crimes (which include treason, sedition, and corruption). Most of her prisons are facilities reminiscent of those in industrialized democratic nations on Earth in the 21st Century. But the most dangerous criminals, unable to mix with a normal prison population, are exiled to "prison planets" and left to fend for themselves, with nothing better than medieval-level technology.

 

No question that for the average Imperial citizen who keeps his nose clean life is good, likely better than it would have been without Istvatha's conquest. But that life comes at a price for those who won't submit to her, and that price often isn't pretty.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Do these things exist in v'han's empire? That would be the dark side I was asking about. From what I can gather from the discussion in this thread those except her rule benefit sooner than those who resist but they still benefit and don't become slaves' date=' servants or face genocide.[/quote']

 

Slavery is anathema to V'han. She insists that all of her subjects be treated equally (although she does favor the inhabitants of her homeworld in her home dimension, "V'ha-1"). Slavery is absolutely forbidden anywhere in her empire.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

The Empress also bans any blood sports which involve either sapient beings or animals, even if they're a local tradition. She may make exceptions for combat sports in which participation is voluntary and the sport is regulated.

[Tigereye]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Jokingly, I was going to say my character seduced her, and gave her dimension-shaking orgasms in return; if he could successfully seduce a life-long lesbian, Istvatha V'Han would be a piece of cake! ;)As a result, she thinks she's the one who's been conquered!

 

More seriously, I think a combination of strategic miscalculation and imperial overreach are to blame, along with the citizens of Earth, PC, NPC (and even a few villains) alike. Although she's very intelligent, that alone doesn't make her a military genius. (Note that the game calls battle skills Tactics, not Grand Strategy.) I look to the example of Queen Elizabeth I of England; she was a remarkable statesperson, but was not herself a great strategist, frequently wasting resources in some areas while not adequately providing for others. The destruction of the Spanish Armada had as much to do with the tactical skills of her commanders and blind luck as anything QE I did. V'Han also may be let down by her commanders a lot. (did Darth Vader do everything himself?)

 

It could be that Istvatha V'Han is riding on her reputation now. A hundred million dimensions are a lot of cosmos, but let's look at this a different way. What if her claims are simply pointing out that she controls the interdimensional gateways, and the spacelanes they control in turn, without actually necessarily controlling all the inhabitants of all the worlds within those dimensions? A lot of Britain's claim to empire was control of the seas; however, aside from a few cultural changes, life in India in the 1800s was not much different from two hundred years earlier. One could live an entire, full life and not even see a British soldier in one's home town. "Empress of a Billion Dimensions", seen in this light, could be taken as her version of "The Sun Never Sets On Our Empire". Maybe it doesn't; but it doesn't shine everywhere equally.

 

It could also very well be that she has reached her zenith, and rebellions in different areas are taking more and more of her still-vast army's time and resources. She may not even realize it yet, as her immortality and stubbornness forbid it; but her empire may be on that long, slow road to its decline. Earth, with its four dimensional portholes, could be her Afghanistan or Alemania, a critical crossroads. Perhaps a puny part of a tiny section of her multiverse, one she must have, but one that continually has the reputation as the thorn of empires before. If she's truly intelligent, she'll let the natives slug it out amongst each other, but never intervene, except perhaps indirectly. Control by proxy would be her best suit to play. Unfortunately, due to overweening pride, she may not leave well enough alone, and try to grab it for herself before Skarn or Tyrannon does first, and do her version of "nation building on the cheap".

 

As a result, I almost think of her in almost tragic terms - an Alexandra The Great, if you will. It makes her fall almost regrettable. Almost.

[psyber624]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I love villains like this (and BotE is steadily clawing its way higher on my wish list). Ones where Good and Evil are not glaringly black and white, but grey. Ones that make you ask tough philosophical questions. If she makes life better for those she conquers, is she right to conquer? If she really does have "a Billion Dimensions" under her rule then is she really a villain when she wipes out civilizations that might pose a threat to all those people? And many of these questions are even more relevant to real life in the post 9/11 world we live in today. Exploring them in a role playing game really sounds like it could be a lot of fun.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

The V'hannian Resistence uses its resources to hinder further conquests and manipulates or is manipulated by her rivals. In my campaigns of futures past the V'hannian Empire is stable, but under constant threat by her rivals.

 

In the end there can be only one Conquorer of the Universes!

 

QM

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Good point, that. BOTE brings up several internal problems that the Empress has to deal with: rebellions both widespread and small-but-potent, interstellar organized criminals, even a secret conspiracy to overthrow her.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Do we have only these two examples, or are there other similar Evil Conquerors Who Improve Everyone's Lot in other Hero System products or in the works of Long generally?

 

They're nowhere near the power levels of the others, but The Futurists (The Fiend and Morticus) from CV2 seem to have a similar mindset. Professor Paradigm seems to think he's doing the Multiverse a favor as well.