Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Heh, no, the Death Star is still bigger. . . somewhat. Going off Wikipedia, the first Death Star had a diamter between 120 and 160 km, while the second was somewhere between 160 and 900. Even the low end of those estimates would have the Death Star at least as big, if of a different shape.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Ahh... here we go -- Ultra-class Super Star Destroyer. 260 km in length. Utterly stupid for Star Wars, but perfect for those world-sized star ships that comic book galactic conquers seem to have (like Mongul's War World).

 

Let's see what Dr. D and Mechanon say to this!

 

For Mechanon 3000, it's a nice light snack.

[McCoy]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

The mere concept of Istvatha is ridiculous, even in the hero universe. Most real-life people cannot even conceive of just how large the universe is - in real life. Even scifi movies are smart enough to realize how impossible it would be to conquer qalaxies and galaxies, much less an entire dimension aka universe. It's so ludicrous as to be beyond even the suspension of belief. To take over millions of universes is plainly beyond common sense. Even having so-called gates throughout the universe would not suffice for even one dimenion subjegated. There is also something which is being assumed in almost all of these posts which is being neglected - universal law. The laws of physics may work fine for science, magic, mutant powers, etc in the universe of Earth, but may totally destroy any being in a new plane of existance. Our real-life minds - even given the existance of another dimension - simply cannot conceive of just how big our current universe is much less how different the laws of physics would be in another universe. This is applicable to the hero games. Even in the Star Trek universe, they were smart enough to break up the Milky Way Galaxy into quadrants because the Milky Way is too large for the Federation to explore, much less a universe and even less multiple universes.

 

Look, in a year there are about 30,000,000 seconds. If a conqueror devoted only 5 minutes to each universe (excluding every doing anything like eating, sleeping, taking a potty break, talking, or any independent thought), you could only cover 100,000 universes. And 5 minutes cannot run a so-called governing authority over a little league game, much less a country, or world, or solar system, or constellation, or galaxy, or universe. In a story even given the suspension of disbelief, there are rules the story must adhere to. A universe must have a given set of rules of physics. Even superhero physics in the hero games universe simply does not allow for this concept to even exist.

 

One could also argue she's been knocking over tiny pocket universes' date=' and thus is stymied by the sheer size of ours.[/quote']

 

Now that's an interesting proposition' date=' that she doesn't necessarily [b']govern[/b] every dimension in her empire, but allows them a large measure of self-rule so long as they adhere to her overall policies, under threat of more direct intervention if they don't toe the line. There have certainly been quite a few empires in the history of the world with similar arrangements with their "subject" territories, and that would make her whole dominion more administratively manageable.

In my campaign, our universe is unusual, if not unique, first in being over 12 billion light years in radius. and second having an abundance of intelligent life. There are seven "superpowers" in our local galaxy group alone.

 

Most of V'han's vassal states are "pocket universes." smaller than the Milky Way galaxy, and she delegates a lot! For the most part, she makes a personal appearance on ceremonial occasions every millennium or so. (When is the last time the POTUS personally came to your home town?) (Now, it is also possible she has mind-linked duplicates, but that's more Tyrranon's schtick.)

 

Her big advantage is that she is immortal, she can take a very long term view.

 

The last time V'han appeared in my campaign she addressed the UN, and offered to accept Earth as a vassal state under the following conditions.

• Current national borders are frozen. They may be changed in the future by peaceful negotition and mutual agreement, but governments using force on their neighbors will be changed.
  
• She insist on three laws. Treason against her Reign, murder, and attemted murder can be considered capital crimes, as the perpetrators will be removed from your planet and never bother you again. Other than those three, her Adjudicators will enforce the laws local authority finds approperate.
  
• Human judges will be replaced by Adjudicators, who will act as judge and jury. They will telepathicaly examine the accused, and if they are guilty rehabilitate them through "psychic surgery." Prisons will be obsolete. The Adjudicators cannot make a mistake. There are enough Earth-humans with telepathic potential that she estimates within five years all Adjudicators will be indigenous humans.
  
• She request that ten percent of all secondary school classes be reserved for her exchange students, who will pay full tuitition and not use any local financial aid. Likewise, twice that number of full scholarships will be made available for Earth-humans who wish to study elsewhere in her relm.
  
• There will be a ten year crash program, paid for by the Empire, to establish a human presence on Earth's moon, Mars, and in the asteroid belt. Deep Space defense stations will be placed beyond the orbit of Jupiter to defend the Solar System against any aggression by any other starfairing society within this universe. The design is that these stations will be 80% crewed by Earth-humans, and will emply over one billion people, mitigation any threat of unemployment as the prisons empty and the local military steps down.
  

 

The PC's looked over this list and said "And we're opposing her why?"

 

But again, her long term plan includes

• Removing anyone who committs murder or attempted murder from the gene pool. Not only will this, over generations, reduce the agression potential of the human race, but the individuals removed are not being executed as she implies, but are used as ginny pigs in super-powers research. (She is not giving the prisoners super-powers, she is using their DNA to breed super troops who will be raised from infancy to be unquestioningly loyal.)
  
• There will be a "brain drain" as the top 20% of future generations is lured away from Earth to see the rest of the Universes. Yes, they are free to return, but they are also free to not return, and "how you gonna keep them down on the farm --"
  
• The best and the brightest of the current generation are being put in harm's way when the Hzell invade.
  
• While she was speaking of a human presence on Mars, did she mention that Mars is already inhabited? Strange oversight that.
  

[OddHat]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

In my campagine, our universe is unusual, if not unique, first in being over 12 billion light years in diameter. and second having an abundance of intelligent life. There are seven "superpowers" in our local galaxy group alone.

 

Most of V'han's vassal states are "pocket universes." smaller than the Milky Way galaxy, and she deligates a lot! For the most part, she makes a personal apperance on ceremonial occasions every millennium or so. (When is the last time the POTUS personally came to your home town?) (Now, it is also possible she has mind-linked duplicates, but that's more Tyrranon's schtick.)

 

Her big advantage is that she is immortal, she can take a very long term view.

 

The last time V'han appeared in my campagine she addressed the UN, and offered to accept Earth as a vassal state under the following conditions.

• Current national borders are frozen. They may be changed in the future by peaceful negotition and mutual agreement, but governments using force on their neighbors will be changed.
  
• She insist on three laws. Treason against her Reign, murder, and attemted murder can be considered capital crimes, as the perpetrators will be removed from your planet and never bother you again. Other than those three, her Adjudicators will enforce the laws local authority finds approperate.
  
• Human judges will be replaced by Adjudicators, who will act as judge and jury. They will telepathicaly examine the accused, and if they are guilty rehabilitate tem throug "psychic surgery." Prisons will be obsolete. The Adjudicators cannot make a mistake. There are enough Earth-humans with telepathic potential that she estimates within five years all Adjudicators will be indigenous humans.
  
• She request that ten percent of all secondary school classes be reserved for her exchange students, who will pay full tuitition and not use any local financial aid. Likewise, twice that number of full scholarships will be made available for Earth-humans who wish to study elsewhere in her relm.
  
• There will be a ten year crash program, paid for by the Empire, to establish a human presence on Earth's moon, Mars, and in the asteroid belt. Deep Space defense stations will be placed beyond the orbit of Jupiter to defend the Solar System against any aggression by any other starfairing society within this universe. The design is that these stations will be 80% crewed by Earth-humans, and will emply over one billion people, mitigation any threat of unemployment as the prisons empty and the local military steps down.
  

 

The PC's looked over this list and said "And we're opposing her why?"

 

But again, her long term plan includes

• Removing anyone who committs murder or attempted murder from the gene pool. Not only will this, over generations, reduce the agression potential of the human race, but the individuals removed are not being executed as she implies, but are used as ginny pigs in super-powers research. (She is not giving the prisoners super-powers, she is using their DNA to breed super troops who will be raised from infancy to be unquestioningly loyal.)
  
• There will be a "brain drain" as the top 20% of future generations is lured away from Earth to see the rest of the Universes. Yes, they are free to return, but they are also free to not return, and "how you gonna keep them down on the farm --"
  
• The best and the brightest of the current generation are being put in harm's way when the Hzell invade.
  
• While she was speaking of a human presence on Mars, did she mention that Mars is already inhabited? Strange oversight that.
  

 

Great stuff, rep when I'm able.

 

What I like best about it is that, even without the caveats that you mention, while it looks fair and just to an outsider (V'han's people), and has appeal for certain segments of the human population ("No more war! True justice!"), It's also easy to see how sane, reasonable humans could be willing to fight and die to stop alien telepaths from taking over the judiciary. Europe will scream about the reintroduction of the death penalty (again, judgments being made by unchecked alien telepaths), America, Russia and China will refuse to give up the sovereign right to defend their interests by waging war, corrupt countries will scream at the idea of judges actually interested in enforcing the law rather than serving their political masters, bigots and xenophobes will panic at the idea of alien children in our schools. Even if V'han has the best of motives, there's plenty of reason for bloody war.

 

And then come the bits she isn't telling.

[Susano]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

There's also the Cannon God Exxaxion option. V'han hands out tech like candy, raises the tech level of Earth rapidly, with things like energy weapons, anti-grav, and so on. Humanity is able to rebuild the Earth, reduce disease, famine, and so on, and colonize the solar system. And once Earth is of a suitable level of advancement (and makes a good beachhead for whatever else she wants), V'han moves in and takes over. And all that tech humanity has been using (such as weapons), stops working when used against V'han's troops....

[McCoy]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

There's also the Cannon God Exxaxion option. V'han hands out tech like candy' date=' raises the tech level of Earth rapidly, with things like energy weapons, anti-grav, and so on. Humanity is able to rebuild the Earth, reduce disease, famine, and so on, and colonize the solar system. And once Earth is of a suitable level of advancement (and makes a good beachhead for whatever else she wants),V'han moves in any takes over. And all that tech humanity has been using (such as weapons), stops working when used against V'han's troops....[/quote']

Or while taking apart and reverse engineering the tech, someone ask "What's that component do?"

 

"I don't know. Strange thing is it seems to work just as well if we jump around it."

 

"Strange. If V'han's government is like any other, these things are built on a low bid contact. Why include an extra component?"

 

"Well, since it works just as well without it, let's take it out, jump around the empty socket, and take it apart."

 

--Later--

 

"It's a kill switch!"

[Susano]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Or while taking apart and reverse engineering the tech, someone ask "What's that component do?"

 

"I don't know. Strange thing is it seems to work just as well if we jump around it."

 

"Strange. If V'han's government is like any other, these things are built on a low bid contact. Why include an extra component?"

 

"Well, since it works just as well without it, let's take it out, jump around the empty socket, and take it apart."

 

--Later--

 

"It's a kill switch!"

 

Obviously, this is what the PC gadgetter discovers.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Hmm... another possibility is that physical laws are slightly different from one dimension to another. After all, it's already established that superpowers and "supertech" function in the Champions Universe due to high levels of ambient magic. Perhaps Istvatha V'han's most powerful weapons, champions, even her personal powers, are nonfunctional or less powerful in this dimension than most of her others. She may have to make do with lesser resources, and may be more vulnerable than normal when she is personally present in our reality.

 

So, she just has to wait to secrete a few global-reality-warping installations on this planet, and then look out...

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Great stuff, rep when I'm able.

 

What I like best about it is that, even without the caveats that you mention, while it looks fair and just to an outsider (V'han's people), and has appeal for certain segments of the human population ("No more war! True justice!"), It's also easy to see how sane, reasonable humans could be willing to fight and die to stop alien telepaths from taking over the judiciary. Europe will scream about the reintroduction of the death penalty (again, judgments being made by unchecked alien telepaths), America, Russia and China will refuse to give up the sovereign right to defend their interests by waging war, corrupt countries will scream at the idea of judges actually interested in enforcing the law rather than serving their political masters, bigots and xenophobes will panic at the idea of alien children in our schools. Even if V'han has the best of motives, there's plenty of reason for bloody war.

 

And then come the bits she isn't telling.

 

Got him for you.

 

Myself, I figured part of te resistance to he rule comes from a somewhat Mongol attitude on her part: any rebellion ir resistance to her rule, any sort at all, is punished with decimation of the offending populace and their forced resettlement on other dimensions/worlds throughout her empire.

 

She's got a population numbering in the hundreds of billions, after all; executing a few million to 'get the point across' is a mild punishment by those standards.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Heh' date=' no, the Death Star is still bigger. . . somewhat. Going off Wikipedia, the first Death Star had a diamter between 120 and 160 km, while the second was somewhere between 160 and 900. Even the low end of those estimates would have the Death Star at least as big, if of a different shape.[/quote']

 

I know, I was just taking the ludicrousness to its logical extreme.

 

"oddly enough, the Omniverse Crusher class of vessels is nearly microscopic in size..."

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I know, I was just taking the ludicrousness to its logical extreme.

 

"oddly enough, the Omniverse Crusher class of vessels is nearly microscopic in size..."

 

 

You know, I bet that V'Han's Micro-Commandoes could be a lot more dangerous than most superheros would ever credit them for. Just look at some of the nastiness listed under 'Shrinking Powers' in various sources.

[McCoy]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

You know' date=' I bet that V'Han's Micro-Commandoes could be a lot more dangerous than most superheros would ever credit them for. Just look at some of the nastiness listed under 'Shrinking Powers' in various sources.[/quote']

Not to mention their stealth abilities. Talk about "staying under the radar--"

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Not to mention their stealth abilities. Talk about "staying under the radar--"

 

Talking about micro-commandoes, didn't something like that happen, lo, these many moons ago in DC's Invasion! storyline?

 

I seem to remember something about action-figure sized aliens invading JL headquarters and battling it out with Oberon.

[Susano]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Oohhh... cool, Empress V'han and the Micronauts!!!

[The Weapon]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

That aside, V'han *does* have one advantage over just about everybody else. To paraphrase a quote about the US tanks against the German Panzers during WWII.

 

"Sure, one Panzer was worth a dozen of your American tanks. The problem was, there was always a thirteenth one waiting for it!"

 

One on one, DEMON brothers waste D-Soldiers. Problem is, for every Demonhame there are probably a thousand or so units of D-Soldiers waiting for them, potentially. VIPER? Outnumbered a solid 50 to one, and that's if V'han just decides to stretch the troops out for a bit, instead of a concerted invasion. MARS units? Well, they can probably hold their precinct buildings if V'han puts her mind to it, but that's about it. UNTIL? PRIMUS? Assuming they can get around the red tape, they put up a valliant defense... but they're kinda screwed after several *months* of defending.

 

 

You also have to factor in that we're probably facing her 3rd or 4th rank troops. Remember she inherited a lot of so-so militaries when their governments put their hands up. What to do with them? Invade places with even more so-so militaries. If we really beat up on her forces all that will happen is next time she'll send 3rd rate instead of 4th rate forces.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Oohhh... cool' date=' Empress V'han and the Micronauts!!![/quote']

 

With Baron Karza as Supreme Commander!

 

(Am I the only person who remembers that very short-lived Marvel series? Though all I can remember is the issue with Micronauts versus Hydra versus SHIELD.)

[Southern Cross]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I remember the Micronauts too...

(But what I remember is the X-men crossover issue...)

[McCoy]

Return of the Island Universe

 

Most of V'han's vassal states are "pocket universes." smaller than the Milky Way galaxy

This month's (March 2008) Scientific American had an interesting article. Some 100 billion years in the future the Milky Way, Andromeda, and the other galaxies of our local group will have colessed into one super-galaxy. The expansion of the universe will have taken all more distant galaxies far enough away that they will appear to be receeding from our galaxy at faster than the speed of light, undetectable beyond the event horizon.

 

So the "one galaxy per universe" model has some scientific validity.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Dunno if it's been said already, but I also get the idea that many if not most of her universes are both low population and low-tech. It's not hard to conquer stone age villages when you have orbital battleships and blaster-wielding infantry.

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I've been watching the television series The Universe and my current line of thinking is that not all universes are the same size, nor overly populated. In real life, most galaxies are small compared to the Milky Way and most solar systems have two to four stars while ours has one. Using just these two "criteria," I'd say most dimensions are smaller than ours, which makes our universe/dimension a bit more special.

 

When it comes to each dimension, possibly only the "large" galaxies actually have life in them and even those have maybe a dozen to a score of sentient species or so, with our galaxy having a larger amount (about 26, according to Terran Empire, I believe). In addition, each galaxy only has a limited number of dimensional portals so V'han cannot simply field her entire assault fleet. Maybe dimensional portals are proportional to planets with life on them? Finally, most of V'ahn's conquests have been in dimensions (especially the younger ones) where life hasn't reached the stars. "Ruling" a planet of dinosaurs is quite simple, you just observe it from an orbital station.

 

When V'han makes her big assault debut in Galactic Champions, she has discovered all the necessary portals and launches a simultaneous attack, along with an additional thousand years to train.

[McCoy]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I've been watching the television series The Universe and my current line of thinking is that not all universes are the same size' date=' nor overly populated. In real life, most galaxies are small compared to the Milky Way and most solar systems have two to four stars while ours has one. Using just these two "criteria," I'd say most dimensions are smaller than ours, which makes our universe/dimension a bit more special. [/quote']

I'm assuming the one galaxy "Island Universes" are the norm, but there are exceptions in both directions.

 

I recall once reading about a star that seemed unconnected to any galaxy. Con't find a cite now, was probably one of those things that didn't hold up under further observation, but it was fun speculating: What if that was a star with a Ringworld around it, and the inhabitants had directed it toward intergalactic space? Going from intergalactic space to seperate universe beyond the event horizon, could some universes be a single star and planets?

 

Then you get into the really different ones, the Ditkospace dimensions that all seem smaller than Rhode island. Aththe extreme in that direction, you may have a dimension/universe with a single inhabitant.

[Vestnik]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

 

I recall once reading about a star that seemed unconnected to any galaxy.

 

I'm sure they must get dislodged occasionally.

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I recall once reading about a star that seemed unconnected to any galaxy.

I'm sure they must get dislodged occasionally.

Yes' date=' I think I recall seeing something like that as well on [u']The Universe[/u]. I might ask for that series for my birthday or Christmas. To quote Bill Nye and my geology professor, "Science rocks!"

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

The Rebel gathering point at the end of Empire Strikes Back was just such a star system ...

 

In any case. I never really liked the idea of 'Istvatha V'han, Conqueror of a Billion Universes' being literally true. Maybe she's conquered a few score planets, multiple pocket dimensions, or whatever -- but unless she's spent a two or three hundred points on Head of State (50 Points), trillions of trillions of followers, etc. etc., I'll ignore it as being exaggeration for the press.

 

I prefer her as being someone who's become dictator of a relatively small (and comparatively lower-tech) star empire, discovered dimensional jumping, acquired a few pocket dimensions, extra (no intelligent life) planets, low-tech places, or whatever -- but when she stumbled across Earth-616 (err, the CU), she realized that the mystic nexus that is Earth would be able to power a REAL expansion, power beyond her wildest dreams. So of course the first thing she tried was cowing the people. 'I've conquered a billion universes, you cannot stop me, don't even try!!' A major PRE attack, as it were.

 

Which failed, but hell, you can't go back on your own press, can you?

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

She's the Contessa Montesarchi, she has violet eyes, and her home base is on Irunium. She employs mercenaries with swords and alien Mafioso, and has trouble dealing with guys with assault rifles. No wonder she can't conquer Earth.

Now, I know there may be skeptics out there, so I'll drop my ultimate argument. If you read Kenneth Bulmer's "Dimension" series (warning, clunky prose ahead), you'll want it to be true, too.

More seriously, this would be the Dark Champions version.