Attention: Nymaz or Needo; MPP Questions

[Killer Shrike]

I was browsing the Rules Question forum and stumbled across this post: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6080

 

Steve didnt go into it too much, but the above question indicates a general misunderstanding of the Powers rules, which I thought I would try to clear up for you.

 

No BS answer: Its rarely worthwhile pointswize to put limitations on a multipower slot, particularly ultra slots, unless you are dealling with a very high AP MPP. The primary reason to do so is as Steve indicated to corectly model the game effect of the power constructs SFX and the flavor of the character. You'll also save a few points, but the savings will be much reduced because you are already getting a huge point break buying the powers in a MPP as it is.

 

Aside from that, you seem to misunderstand how Modifiers function.

 

You have Base Cost. This is how much the base effect of the power costs. If you have no Advantages this is also the Active Points, and if you have no modifiers at all its also the Real Cost. Thus an 8d6 EB has a Base Cost of 40; it is approximately as powerful as any other 40 point power in theory.

 

Base Cost * Advantages = Active Points. Active Points indicate the true magnitude of a power taking into account extra bennies that make the Power better than a version of the power bought on the same Base Cost. Thus an 8d6 AP EB is 60 AP and is better than just an 8d6 EB, and equivalent to a 12d6 EB.

 

What this means is that in a MPP, if you want more dice, apply less Advantages. The classic example is 3 otherwise identical slots, one bought 0 END, another 1/2 END, and the last with no advantages at all defined as the same actual attack power, but tunable to either be more powerful (but tiring) or less powerful (but effortless).

 

 

Active Points / Limitations= Real Cost. This is the adjusted cost in character points taking into account any modifiers which make the power less effect, less useful, less reliable, etc. It has nothing to do with the strength of the Power; it only has to do with the cost of the power. Think of it as a REBATE for damaged goods and you'll be on track. Frex, if you go to the store to buy a TV, but the only one theyve got left that you like is the floor model -- (unless you are a sucker) you'll pay less for the floor model because it has been used, doesnt have a box, is missing the instructions, whatever; its less good than a new-in-the-box TV, and thus you pay less for it.

 

 

You seem to be approaching Power Construction from the Real Cost perspective wherein if you are going to spend X real points then X * Limitations = AP / Advantages = Base Cost possible, which is a valid technique if you have a set number of points you can spend and want to get the most bang for the buck, but doesnt work so well for powers bought through Power Frameworks. For starters, Limitations are a point rebate, and so are Frameworks, and for seconders all 3 Frameworks have built in controls to prevent egregious abuse. The main check & balance for MPPs and one of the checks for VPPs is that the max AP possible in each slot equals the size of the Pool. The only way to make a slot more powerful (ie higher AP) once it has hit the cap is to raise the MPP Pool size first, and then pay to upgrade the slot(s). So you get a big upfront benefit from the MPP, but it is a little costly and more complicated to upgrade it later.

[Nymaz]

But I want everything, with whipped cream and cherries on top...

 

Seriously, though, thanks for all the info! It does give me a lot to think about.

[Killer Shrike]

de nada. Good luck with the HERO System!

[feywulf]

There is one other benefit that can be had by putting limitations on powers in an MP, but only if every power in the MP has those limitations(exception for the charges limitation). In that case you can take the limitations on the price of the MP pool itself as well as on the powers bought in the MP slots.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by feywulf

There is one other benefit that can be had by putting limitations on powers in an MP, but only if every power in the MP has those limitations(exception for the charges limitation). In that case you can take the limitations on the price of the MP pool itself as well as on the powers bought in the MP slots.

Yes, this is true. I use this technique often.

 

I tend to favor MPP's for "arrays" of similar abilities rather than grab bags of cheap powers, making this a very useful feature of the rules.

[JMHammer]

Check your private messages

 

Nymaz,

 

Check your private messages for a suggestion I made which does break the official rules but permits a bit more flexibility without adding significantly more power unless a player goes out of his way to abuse it. (Something easily scotched by a GM.)

 

John H

[needo]

Originally posted by Nymaz

But I want everything, with whipped cream and cherries on top...

 

Seriously, though, thanks for all the info! It does give me a lot to think about.

 

Having gamed with Nymaz for a couple years now. I can fully attest to him wanting everything with whipped cream and cherries on top.

[VictorVonDoom]

What is a fixed slot and a (u)ltraslot?

[Simon]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

What is a fixed slot and a (u)ltraslot?

Read page 206 in FREd

[VictorVonDoom]

in normal english ?

[Simon]

Turn to page 206 of the Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book (the big black book that contains all the rules for 5th edition...also known as FREd). Start reading.

[JmOz]

Fixed and Ultra are the same thing first (the wording changed between 4th and 5th)

 

Essentialy a fixed slot has to be primed at full effect so if you have a 50 point MP Reserve and 3 different 50 point powers in the MP you would have to use the whole reserve to activate any power (So even if you wanted to use a 5d6 EB you would have to spend 50 points of your reserve to do it). These slots cost you 1/10 the points of the power

 

A multi slot (and another name that escapes me right now) allows you to dial the amount of the effect you want, so if you had the same 50 point MP Reserve but the four slots were multi you could use 30 points for a 6d6 EB and 20 points for a 10/10 force field, or you could use all 50 for a 25/25 FF or what ever, up to 50 points. These slots cost 1/5 the points of the power

 

The two types of slots can be combined in the same MP

[JmOz]

Originally posted by dsimon

Turn to page 206 of the Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book (the big black book that contains all the rules for 5th edition...also known as FREd). Start reading.

 

Dan,

 

Victor is from Belgium, I would assume that when he asked for it in plain english he might have wanted help understanding the rules, being rude is not nesesary.

[Simon]

Originally posted by JmOz

Dan,

 

Victor is from Belgium, I would assume that when he asked for it in plain english he might have wanted help understanding the rules, being rude is not nesesary.

I wasn't being rude, so come down off of your high horse.

 

My assumption was that he didn't know what FREd referred to (common enough....especially for someone both new to the boards and from another country). My followup post was the same as my first one, but specifying the book in a way that he would be able to identify....and explaining what FREd meant so that he could recognize the term in the future.

[VictorVonDoom]

I have also an autistic problem and i have the black book not there in my brain yet...it is hard enough to translate everything...and then wrestling with my mental problem (call it a disadvantage at your higher mindlevel ) gives a problem so my questions might sound not professional but i am learning at a larger rate (disadvantage again) then the other. many of you comprehend it at the first time around but i don't

[DoItHTH]

Just to make sure I havent been doing this wrong in the past...

 

Looking at JmOz's example:

 

"Essentialy a fixed slot has to be primed at full effect so if you have a 50 point MP Reserve and 3 different 50 point powers in the MP you would have to use the whole reserve to activate any power (So even if you wanted to use a 5d6 EB you would have to spend 50 points of your reserve to do it). These slots cost you 1/10 the points of the power"

 

The key here is that you purchased 3 50 point powers in the MP. If i bought a 20 and 30 point powers as fixed slots in a MP. I could have both active. since they total the power points in the reserve. But if i had either the 20 or 30 active I could not have a 50 point fixed slot active.

 

This is correct?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by dsimon

Turn to page 206 of the Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book (the big black book that contains all the rules for 5th edition...also known as FREd). Start reading.

Ow. I think I hurt something internal from laughing too hard.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by DoItHTH

Just to make sure I havent been doing this wrong in the past...

 

Looking at JmOz's example:

 

"Essentialy a fixed slot has to be primed at full effect so if you have a 50 point MP Reserve and 3 different 50 point powers in the MP you would have to use the whole reserve to activate any power (So even if you wanted to use a 5d6 EB you would have to spend 50 points of your reserve to do it). These slots cost you 1/10 the points of the power"

 

The key here is that you purchased 3 50 point powers in the MP. If i bought a 20 and 30 point powers as fixed slots in a MP. I could have both active. since they total the power points in the reserve. But if i had either the 20 or 30 active I could not have a 50 point fixed slot active.

 

This is correct?

 

That is correct.

 

You must allocate part of the MP Pool equal to the full AP of an ultra/fixed slot, whatever that may be.

[Fireg0lem]

Victor:

To put it into the fewest possible words:

 

In an ultra slot, which means the same as a fixed slot, cost 1 per 10 real points, and it takes up its full point cost in the multipower, even if you aren't using the maximum power.

 

In a multi slot, you only need to use up as much of the reserve as you want to use of the power. Thus it costs 1 per 5 real points.

 

To give an example, consider a 50-point Multipower with three slots: a 3d6 Ranged Killing Attack (45 AP), a 25 PD/ 25 ED Force Field (50 AP), and a 6d6 Energy Blast with Beam (a -1/4 Limitation).

 

The Ranged Killing Attack is in an Ultra slot. Therefore, it costs 4 CP (45/10, rounded in favor of the player).

 

The Force Field is in a Multi slot. It costs 10 CP (50/5)

 

The Energy Blast is in a Multi slot. It costs 5 CP (its Real Point cost is 24, and 24/5 is 4.8, which rounds up).

 

Now, lets allocate some points.

You want to use a 2d6 RKA and have up as much Force Field as possible. Since the RKA is an Ultra slot, you have to "spend" 45 of the 50 reserve points to have it active, even if you only want to fire a 2d6 blast.

 

That leaves 5 points. That's enough for 2 PD/ 3 ED Force field (or 3 PD/ 2 ED). Since the Force Field is a multi slot, you can choose to only allocate 5 of the 50 points.

 

Another example: You want to fire an energy blast, but still have a lot of defense. You can allocate between 30 and 5 points to Energy Blast, and for every 5 points you can throw 1d6 of Energy Blast (because it costs 5 Active Points per 1d6). The Beam limitation doesn't matter, because the point allocation counts only Active Points.

 

Then, you can allocate all the leftover points to Force Field.

 

Killer Shrike: I disagree about the limitations being useless. You can have twice as many slots if all of them have -1 limitations. You may not be able to double your raw power, but you just doubled your flexiblity.

 

For example, a 50 point MP. If you have 15points to spend on the slots, you can buy 3 ultra slots normally, and have 3 options. But, if you put a - 1/2 limitation (a different limitation each time) on each slot, you can have 5 ultra slots instead of 3, giving you a boost in flexibility.

 

After all, with MPs, the slots aren't valued as a cost of power, they're valued as a cost of flexibility.

[VictorVonDoom]

How do you know when to use a fixed slot or a ultaslot?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

How do you know when to use a fixed slot or a ultaslot?

 

It depends what you're trying to accomplish. In my experience there are two classic uses for Multipower.

 

First, the character who can do numerous things, not all at once but not mutually exclusive either. All his slots are standard.

 

For example, a character had EB, Flight and Force Field in his multipower. Let's say it's got 75 active points. He takes a standard slot for each power, so he can mix and match as he sees fit. Perhaps he generally uses an 8d6 EB (40 points), a 10/10 force field at half END (25 points) and 5" flight (10 points). However, he's getting low on STUN, so he decides to shut down his Flight and increase his force field to 14/14 at 1/2 END (35 points). Or he shuts down both flight and force field to fire off a 15d6 EB.

 

The second is the character whose multipower slots are mutually exclusive. He can only use one at a time.

 

An example of this type of character is the classic comic archetype of the Archer. His multipower slots are all attacks, each a different trick arrow. He will never use two arrows at once, so he makes each slot an ultra. One phase, he can fire an RKA, the next a flash, but he has no way to combine the two - each slot is all or nothing.

[VictorVonDoom]

hmm..ok so if a MPP has more attacks or different in them but one shot only then it is ultra ; If you can switch it off or on and combining it then it is fixed?