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Jachra

Dive for Cover

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

This is an intersting point. If you LOOK like you are going to attack, you might get an opponent to DFC, and you could accomplish that with an Acting roll or a PRE type attack or somesuch.

 

You could have a DEX-off between attacker and DFC-er.

 

The basic rule (or lack of rule) is, however, as Alibear stated it.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

This is an intersting point. If you LOOK like you are going to attack, you might get an opponent to DFC, and you could accomplish that with an Acting roll or a PRE type attack or somesuch.

 

You could have a DEX-off between attacker and DFC-er.

 

The basic rule (or lack of rule) is, however, as Alibear stated it.

 

An excellent use of the Feint Skill if there ever was one.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

Something to keep in mind...

 

DFC can be made vs. any type of attack. The most common is anything with the AOE or Explosion Advantage. However, it can also be used vs. non-AOE HTH and Ranged attacks as well.

 

In the case of a non-AOE Ranged attack the successful DFC roll only adds to the attacker's Range Modifier (by the distance moved) unless the character gets behind some physical barrier.

 

If a DFC roll is successfully made vs. a non-AOE HTH attack will always miss.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

Something to keep in mind...

 

DFC can be made vs. any type of attack. The most common is anything with the AOE or Explosion Advantage. However, it can also be used vs. non-AOE HTH and Ranged attacks as well.

 

In the case of a non-AOE Ranged attack the successful DFC roll only adds to the attacker's Range Modifier (by the distance moved) unless the character gets behind some physical barrier.

 

If a DFC roll is successfully made vs. a non-AOE HTH attack will always miss.

 

Yeah: I don't like this rule, which was added in 5th, I think. I houserule that a dodge and a dive for cover are the same thing. In both cases you are trying to get out of the way.

 

The house rule is that you can dodge either in your hex or try to dodge away form an attack. If you dodge in your hex, it's treated as a regular dodge currently is. If you dive for cover (ie: try to dodge and move) you still get the dodge bonus, but also have to make the modified DEX roll to cover the ground - if you fail the DEX roll - you fall short one hex for every point you miss the roll by. Either way, if you move, you end up prone.

 

This plays pretty simply - a player simply declares a dodge - either in place or something like "I dodge behind the pillar". Non-AoE attacks go against the regular DCV + dodge bonus + cover bonus (if any), AoE attacks take account of cover.

 

There's no fudging about "if it's a regular attack, if it's an Aoe attack I DFC" and it removes the irritating glitch that a 1 hex DFC can completely obviate a HTH attack.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

[snip]... and it removes the irritating glitch that a 1 hex DFC can completely obviate a HTH attack.
It's not a glitch IMO. A 1 hex DFC should obviate an HTH attack. That's not only fairly realistic but completely in line with source material. Why shouldn't a jump of 2 (or more) meters get you away from claws/sword/karate chop?

 

Dive for Cover is a desperate attempt to get out of the way of an attack. It has sufficient penalties (both against success and if it is successful) to be a legitimate maneuver as currently written.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

I agree. And sometimes it is the only thing allowing PC's to take on truly formidable beasties.

 

If they try it against multiple foes it'll really will be last ditch defence and possibly just delaying the inevitable.

 

I ran one memorable fight where the bloke dived for cover on phase 12 from an ogre and kept diving and rolling (while still grounded) as the ogre pressed the effin big club attack, against his 1/2 dcv until help arrived.

 

I've never seen anyone make so many 12- rolls.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

It's not a glitch IMO. A 1 hex DFC should obviate an HTH attack. That's not only fairly realistic but completely in line with source material. Why shouldn't a jump of 2 (or more) meters get you away from claws/sword/karate chop?

 

Dive for Cover is a desperate attempt to get out of the way of an attack. It has sufficient penalties (both against success and if it is successful) to be a legitimate maneuver as currently written.

 

The problem is that DFC is penalised only for distance moved - it does not take into consideration, for example, the skill of the opponent. In a melee combat situation if you actually did dive for cover you'd likely get splatted, especially against an opponent with some skill or speed advantage over you.

 

Both block and dodge account for opponent skill - DFC is something else entirely. I'd be happy enough to allow DFC as an opposed DEX roll, but then it becomes largely pointless as a defence against AoE, which is what it was really designed for.

 

Sure DFC has significant penalties, unless you are quick enough to recover before your opponent's next action, but when you take into account certain martial maneouvres that do not so penalise, it is a bit of a silliness charter IMO.

 

The 'solution' to DFC is getting the opponent to THINK that you are attacking, DFX, then really attack in the same phase. DFC is an attack action so end the phase of the DFCer. Alternatively you double team them - ATTACK 1, DFC, ATTACK 2.

 

Pain in the armpit when alone against an opponent with superior speed though.

 

I mean, in a game against agents if they kept DFCing away from melee atatcks they would enormously increase their survivability. Personally as GM I can't be bothered ekeing out the melees like that, and if I'm not using it for the villains I'm reticent about letting the heroes have a go.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

DFC has a distinct downside - sure you jump out of the way of an incoming attack...

 

But you end up Prone (1/2 DCV to the next incoming attack) and have Aborted a Phase (hope that guy isn't faster than you!).

 

These are, IMO, balancing factors for avoiding incoming attacks almost completely.

 

And don't forget you get a -1 to your DEX Roll for every Inch your Diving - for an 12- trying to get 2" away they're chances are less than 50% they'll jump out of the way in time.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

DFC has a distinct downside - sure you jump out of the way of an incoming attack...

 

But you end up Prone (1/2 DCV to the next incoming attack) and have Aborted a Phase (hope that guy isn't faster than you!).

 

These are, IMO, balancing factors for avoiding incoming attacks almost completely.

 

And don't forget you get a -1 to your DEX Roll for every Inch your Diving - for an 12- trying to get 2" away they're chances are less than 50% they'll jump out of the way in time.

 

DFC is very dependent, for overall utility, on who is using it, moreso than any other manouvre.

 

If we take a one on one situation, where the player is facing off against a faster villain, it is just going to be a PITA.

 

Sure a slower opponent of similar power is not going to bother much (unless they have the flying dodge MA maneouvre i.e. DFC minus the penalties), and most players are too impatient to use it as a regular tactic.

 

Where it becomes very nasty though is this: Your average 18 DEX agent has a DCV of 6, and your average 23 DEX hero is hitting them most of the time and, given the damage/defence thing probably one shotting them.

 

If they DFC, however, just 1 inch to escape melee attacks, they are succeeding on a roll of 12- or, in other words, far better odds. The fact that they get hit next phase is irrelevant - they would have been hit anyway, and this way it is taking twice as long to take down the agents.

 

Of course you could play agents as idiots, but then, why bother with them at all?

 

It is a complete PITA in any mismatched scenario. If you want to play 'big nasty takes ont he heroes' sensible heroes are going to make like the agents, and we are just into grind time:

 

We'll all delay, wait to see who big nasty targets, they DFC, the rest of us attack. Rinse. Repeat.

 

Finally this rankles:

 

Jeet Kune Dragon has DEX of 50 and SPD 6.

 

MumbleBump has a DEX of 23 and SPD 6.

 

Normally JKD has no problem hitting but MB can DFC his attacks on a 13- and, because you can abort to DFC, KEEP DOING IT Buy position shift on your movement and you don;t even need to take a prone penalty for the next roll.. That is a reality roadbump. Someone with that kind of DEX advantage shouldn't be seeing their opponent just step out of reach every time.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

Buy position shift on your movement and you don't even need to take a prone penalty for the next roll..
When you DFC, you are Prone. You cannot use Breakfall (and by extension Position Shift) to nullify the Prone penalty.

 

From the 5ER FAQ:

 

Question: Does the Position Shift Adder for Teleportation have any effect on Dive For Cover — for example, does it

allow a character to Dive For Cover without suffering “prone” penalties.

 

Answer: No.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

The Dive for cover mechanic is interesting. we used it a lot in my latest Jedi game since getting out of the way of light sabers is very important.

 

the main disadvantage of dodge is if you abort to a dodge according to the book you get no movement.

 

Jedi Hero vs evil Jedi padawan.

 

both end up on top of a tower (why is it that Jedi always seem to fight in an area that a great fall can result.)

 

 

The padawan on phase 12 realizes that he is in the wrong place and his Dex is lower than the Jedi.

 

the Jedi attacks

if the Padawan aborts to a dodge he is in the same sinking boat so he aborts to a DFC which moves him away from the attack and away from the Jedi who wants his evil head.

 

this brings up flying dodge which this year is my new favorite maneuver.

 

Mardok:A charater with a lower dex how dose he get away from a hand to hand attack?

 

Lord Ghee

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

I know no one asked, but since we're discussing DFC...

 

These are the house rules I'm currently testing for DFC. I'll be curious to see how they work in play once someone actually uses it. ;)

 

DIVE FOR COVER

 

With this Combat Maneuver, the diving character responds to a current attack by choosing a straight-line direction to dive, and then attempting a DEX Roll. If the DEX Roll fails, the character is considered to be "in the air" until the resolution of the attack, but otherwise the Dive For Cover has no effect (his location does not change, his DCV does not change, he is not automatically left prone at the end of the maneuver, etc.)

 

If the DEX Roll succeeds, then the character is entitled to move 1 hex in the chosen direction for each 1 the roll succeeded by (to a maximum of half the character's maximum combat movement), and the character is considered to be "in the air" until the resolution of the current attack is completed. The character does not have to move the full number of hexes a successful roll entitles him to.

 

For each hex the character moves, he gets +2 DCV that functions only against the incoming attack (and any other attacks that are Coordinated with it, combining with it in a Multiple Power Attack, etc.). So for example, if the character moved 3 hexes, he would get +6 DCV against the current attack only.

 

In addition to the DCV bonus, the fact that the character has changed position may result in other effects. For example, if the current attack is an Area Effect, the character may have moved out of the affected area (or into a less-effected area, in the case of an Explosion). Or the character may have been able to move behind literal cover (providing additional DEF/BODY) or concealment (providing additional DCV bonuses). Or the character may even have been able to pass beyond the range of current attack (such as moving more than 1 hex away from a barehanded attack), in which case the current attack of course cannot succeed.

 

Once the current attack has been resolved, the character is no longer automatically considered to be "in the air" (though he may actually be in the air, if he used a Movement Power such as Flight, Leaping, or Gliding to Dive For Cover). Also, he immediately becomes prone (or is considered "prone" if using a Movement Power such as Flight) and therefore 1/2 DCV. This effect occurs instantly after the resolution of the current attack, before even other actions on the same DEX in the Combat Order in the same Phase. Breakfall cannot be used to prevent the character from becoming prone as the result of a Dive For Cover, but can of course be used to allow the character get to his feet as a Zero-Phase Action on his next Phase.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

When you DFC, you are Prone. You cannot use Breakfall (and by extension Position Shift) to nullify the Prone penalty.

 

From the 5ER FAQ:

 

Question: Does the Position Shift Adder for Teleportation have any effect on Dive For Cover — for example, does it

allow a character to Dive For Cover without suffering “prone” penalties.

 

Answer: No.

 

I accept that but the quote was out of context - for the example I gave, position shift, means that you can effectively get to your feet for free, so you won't need to worry about penalties to your DEX roll for your NEXt aborted DFC roll if you are slower.

 

If you are DFCing with flight or, for that matetr TP, I'm not sure how you wind up prone anyway. Indeed you could DFC straight up with flight (albeit at only 1/4 of your total move in effect) and get out of melee range that way.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

I accept that but the quote was out of context - for the example I gave, position shift, means that you can effectively get to your feet for free, so you won't need to worry about penalties to your DEX roll for your NEXt aborted DFC roll if you are slower.

 

If you are DFCing with flight or, for that matetr TP, I'm not sure how you wind up prone anyway. Indeed you could DFC straight up with flight (albeit at only 1/4 of your total move in effect) and get out of melee range that way.

 

Prone usually means "in a disadvantageous position" and for the purposes of DFC, you can only make successive DFC Attempts with GM Permission, unlike Dodging you are not Diving For Cover until your next Phase, you're Prone until you have a Phase to reorient - at which point Position Shift can allow you to "get to your feet" as a 0-Phase Action.

 

But it won't help you one bit if you are slower than the opponent. Even less against multiple opponents.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

The Dive for cover mechanic is interesting. we used it a lot in my latest Jedi game since getting out of the way of light sabers is very important.

 

the main disadvantage of dodge is if you abort to a dodge according to the book you get no movement.

 

Jedi Hero vs evil Jedi padawan.

 

both end up on top of a tower (why is it that Jedi always seem to fight in an area that a great fall can result.)

 

 

The padawan on phase 12 realizes that he is in the wrong place and his Dex is lower than the Jedi.

 

the Jedi attacks

if the Padawan aborts to a dodge he is in the same sinking boat so he aborts to a DFC which moves him away from the attack and away from the Jedi who wants his evil head.

 

this brings up flying dodge which this year is my new favorite maneuver.

 

Mardok:A charater with a lower dex how dose he get away from a hand to hand attack?

 

Lord Ghee

 

 

DFC is plain unrealistic anyway - if you are holding an action or it is your go, you can step away from a Hero combat without penalty.

 

You cannot abort to a straight move.

 

DCF is the bastard child of these two rules. Flying dodge is, well, mad.

 

Once more: here's my problem - DFC involves no contest of skill, no comparison of the relative abilities of the attacker and defender.

 

A mechanic of this sort IS important if you want a 'standard defence' against AoE. I'm not sure it is really needed, to be honest - AoE in Hero is rarely potent in terms of damage delivered because of the cost of the advantage - but if you do want something of the sort, you need something there.

 

Derek's sugegstions are good but mean that you can gain +2DCV for each point your make a DEX roll by, plus you get to move seems generous to me, but still better than the current system which allows the DFC to act as a total defence.

 

Personally I'd do it this way, if I had to make up a rule:

 

Leave the rule as is BUT attacker rolls to hit, and applies the amount he succeeded by as a negative penalty to the DEX roll fo the defender. This makes AoE hard to dodge out fo the way of because the attacker is targetting DCV 3 (or less if adjacent) and so the negative is likely to be substantial. If the DEX roll fails you don't get to move at all but apply the attack normally, and any KB as if you were in the air, unless you were teleporting or tunelling out of the way, when that would not make sense.

 

The nice thing about this is that when it is really needed, IMO, is in heroic level games to escape AoE killing attacks, or attacks from significantly more powerful opponents, and as DEX is usually lower in that sort of game the penalty is also goign to be lower - the OCV probably wont be that much more than 3 to start with.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

Prone usually means "in a disadvantageous position" and for the purposes of DFC, you can only make successive DFC Attempts with GM Permission, unlike Dodging you are not Diving For Cover until your next Phase, you're Prone until you have a Phase to reorient - at which point Position Shift can allow you to "get to your feet" as a 0-Phase Action.

 

But it won't help you one bit if you are slower than the opponent. Even less against multiple opponents.

 

 

You are quite right but then I was thinking that making a DEX roll when you are prone would be at a penalty, but it isn't, so it matters a lot less than I thought.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

Hmm. The other thing I think we ought to change about DFC is that you have to dice for the direction you dive in using the normal scatter rules - this is a desperation measure, after all. If you can't get out of the way in that direction, well, bad luck, and if it means putting you in a disadvantageous position, ditto. I'd geneously allow a small amount of latitude - if you would be diving near a window, I'd be happy to let you change the angle slightly to get through it. especially if you are on the sixth storey...comedy has its own universal rules and unlike game rules, they have to be obeyed :D

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

DFC is plain unrealistic anyway - if you are holding an action or it is your go, you can step away from a Hero combat without penalty.

 

You cannot abort to a straight move.

 

DCF is the bastard child of these two rules.

There's some validity to this. I can't see any real reason a character can't abort to simply running away. I suspect it's because some players would abuse that to make Move By/Throughs while supposedly "escaping."

 

Were I to revise the DFC from scratch, I think I'd do two things:

 

1) Dive for Cover would be literally a leap to avoid harm, and the character would go only as far as his STR would take him from a standing start. He would then be considered "out of combat" (i.e., half DCV and 0 OCV) rather than Prone until he regains combat status on his next Phase. I might also change the name of DFC to something more generic like Evade/Avoid Attack/Injury.

 

2) I would allow a new defensive Action called something like Flee which would allow the character to Abort to a half combat move and travel away from the threat. The character could not move closer to the source of the threat in any way; although they could stay at the same distance but still move "sideways." Since the character is fleeing, his OCV drops to 0 but his DCV would increase by some small amount; perhaps +2 or +3.

 

Since the earliest cellular organisms first consumed their neighbors, fleeing has been a valid defensive technique. I see no good reason characters playing Hero can't do the same.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

I'm pretty happy with DFC as is...if I was to tinker ,Hmmm I'd try to make it somehow a skill vs skill, maybe modify the roll both by inches "jumped" and Dex/10...or something like that...I'd ahve to mess around a while before changing things though...

 

Maybe if your oponite is higher dex than you you must make a dex roll to abort in time?

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

Once more: here's my problem - DFC involves no contest of skill, no comparison of the relative abilities of the attacker and defender.

 

A mechanic of this sort IS important if you want a 'standard defence' against AoE. I'm not sure it is really needed, to be honest - AoE in Hero is rarely potent in terms of damage delivered because of the cost of the advantage - but if you do want something of the sort, you need something there.

**************************************************

Personally I'd do it this way, if I had to make up a rule:

 

Leave the rule as is BUT attacker rolls to hit, and applies the amount he succeeded by as a negative penalty to the DEX roll fo the defender. This makes AoE hard to dodge out fo the way of because the attacker is targetting DCV 3 (or less if adjacent) and so the negative is likely to be substantial. If the DEX roll fails you don't get to move at all but apply the attack normally, and any KB as if you were in the air, unless you were teleporting or tunelling out of the way, when that would not make sense.

 

Why not leave it unchanged if you are diving for cover from an AoE attack (it lands where it was intended to land anyway). However, if the attack is not AoE, apply the amount the Diver succeeds by as a bonus to DCV (,mechanically the same as applying "what he hit by" as a penalty to the DFC attempt)? The problem tends to arise because a character can dive one hex away and avoid all harm from a non-AoE attack. Under the above approach, the attacker still has a chance to land the punch before the Diver escapes.

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

It's not a glitch IMO. A 1 hex DFC should obviate an HTH attack. That's not only fairly realistic but completely in line with source material. Why shouldn't a jump of 2 (or more) meters get you away from claws/sword/karate chop?

 

Dive for Cover is a desperate attempt to get out of the way of an attack. It has sufficient penalties (both against success and if it is successful) to be a legitimate maneuver as currently written.

 

I see it as a glitch, because the character doing the DFC is standing right next to his attacker. If the character dodges (ie: makes a desperate attempt to get out of the way of an attack) he has a reduced chance of getting hit - but the attacker still has a chance to connect. If the character DFCs (ie: makes a desperate attempt to get out of the way of an attack) the attacker has no chance to hit unless the target actually fail the attempt.

 

It's not such a big deal for heroic level games where the chances of failing are significant, but in some of our superheroic games we had characters who could make a 1 hex DFC on a DEX roll of 18-. It meant if they wanted to burn an action, they could essentially dodge almost any HTH attack, regardless of the attacker's OCV (Hugh's already mentioned this). And someone with a DEX in the high 30's usually has phases to burn.

 

It doesn't even make that much sense rationally - if you can move, so can your opponent: it's not like you magically end up 2 metres away while he is frozen in time. To me it makes more sense to treat DFC and dodge as two variants of the same action - a desperate attempt to get out of the way of an attack - and treat them the same way.

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: Dive for Cover

 

Mardok:A charater with a lower dex how dose he get away from a hand to hand attack?

 

Lord Ghee

 

He's got two choices: dodge and then flee when he gets a move (there's no "attack of opportunity" in Hero) or dive for cover. Using my house rule, a "dive for cover" is just a dodge that incorporates movement, so he still gets his dodge bonus - all the DEX roll does is determine how far he goes. If he's smart enough to use the terrain, he can benefit from dodging behind that too, to get a cover bonus.

 

If the cover in in his hex, he doesn't even need to roll - that's a classic "movie bit" where one antagonist is dodging around an object, while his opponent tries to whack him - like Jack Sparrow and Davy Jones fighting around the capstan in the last POTC movie.

 

The house rule is simple. A dodge is a dodge and always treated the same (+3 DCV, +5 if it's martial). That's a substantial advantage right there.

 

If you want to move (to get away from an AoE, for example, or to get some cover, or just to get away from an attacker) you make a DEX roll, modified by distance. That doesn't affect your DCV - you are still dodging, after all - the DEX roll just effects your movement and how far you can go. You fall down at the end of your move or end up similarly inconvenienced, so you are at 1/2 DCV. If you have bought flying dodge, you can move without the DEX roll - but it still doesn't affect your DCV: it's a dodge, after all.

 

This plays very simply and works well - it even encourages the players to make more use of terrain. It makes DFC a useful technique, but not a killer advantage: and the players haven't complained, because it means that low point, low DCV characters can't delay and then DFC to gain immunity to HTH by succeeding on a DEX roll while their comrades pound on the attacking PC - which is what used to happen.

 

cheers, Mark

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