Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

[nexus]

I admit I like some Iron Age and Steel age comics and different looks at what supers are and how to portray them. Four color is fun too and I understand it's not "realistic" (always a loaded word with characters like superhumans). But what gets to me ususally occurs on the opposite end up the spectrum from four color/silver age style supers, the supposedly more "realistic" Iron age and later stages. It seems like most of them confuse realism with cynicism. Take these two posts from an rpg.net thread on Super Hero geopolitics

 

http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=8046133&postcount=107

 

http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=8046854&postcount=108

 

IMO, these are some pretty extreme views, not anymore innately realistic than anything else. The "realistic" reaction to supers would fall somewhere in the middle and vary across the globe but probably include a great deal of denial at first. In the end, it seems to boil down to a simple question: "What kind of stories do you want to tell?" At least that's how I look at it.

[Half Baked]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

In the end' date=' it seems to boil down to a simple question: "What kind of stories do you want to tell?" At least that's how I look at it.[/quote']

 

That's the only way to look at from my point of view.

 

 

But what gets to me ususally occurs on the opposite end up the spectrum from four color/silver age style supers' date=' the supposedly more "realistic" Iron age and later stages. It seems like most of them confuse realism with cynicism.[/quote']

 

I don't even think the extreme viewpoints are particularly cynical. To me they look like adolescent wish fulfillment of those who feel they are weak and powerless and are bitter about it. Shooting your classmates is a very extreme expression of it, but there are clear similarities:

 

1. Develop a view of the world where all the problems, either personal or global, are someone else's fault. Either it is corrupt governments, stupid voters, evil corporations, rich girls who flaunt their looks and wealth, but won't give you time of day, classmates who are conspiring against you, calling you a creep behind your back, blah blah blah.

 

2. Tell yourself you are smarter and/or better than anyone else because you can see this and they can't.

 

3. Fantasize about what you would do if you had the power to change the world and show everyone you were right.

 

4. With any luck they are talented enough to write an entertaining comic rather than some of the less savoury actions.

 

I don't mean that those who write very rusty iron age are the same as mass murderers, but there are some parallels in the way the see the world and the acceptance of victim status in my opinion.

[nexus]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

I don't even think the extreme viewpoints are particularly cynical. To me they look like adolescent wish fulfillment of those who feel they are weak and powerless and are bitter about it. .

 

There is definitely an aspect of that in many of these scenarios.

[Korvar]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

I agree. I'm astonished how quickly people go to the Authority-style "rule ze VURLD!" scenarios. And, of course, that's more "realistic" than being able to be accepted.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

I don't know.

 

While it is the nature of the Comic medium to exaggerate, there are a couple of things to keep in mind on this.

• "Eat the Rich" - people in the real word do decend viciously on people they see as having advantages that they do not. This already happens with people who are more wealthy and/or famous right now - hence the quote. This is compounded by the way the Media (every hungry for a headline) will decend on a celebrity at the earliest whiff of scandal or weakness.
  
• "Fear" - People can and do to stupid things when they are afraid. And, with some Superhumans they would have a right to be. A Brick with a Strength of 75, punches with the same force as a Railroad Locomotive hits a Brick Wall at 30mph. And he/she can do this with every blow.
  • And while people may be afraid, governments will be terrified by this threat to their authority (even relatively benign governments would be concerned about this kind of uncontrolled power walking about). They would typically react either to control or eliminate the threat.

So, while a lot of the "Iron Age" comics may go overboard on their reactions, I think they may still be on the right track.

[Half Baked]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

I don't know.

 

While it is the nature of the Comic medium to exaggerate, there are a couple of things to keep in mind on this.

• "Eat the Rich" - people in the real word do decend viciously on people they see as having advantages that they do not. This already happens with people who are more wealthy and/or famous right now - hence the quote. This is compounded by the way the Media (every hungry for a headline) will decend on a celebrity at the earliest whiff of scandal or weakness.
  
• "Fear" - People can and do to stupid things when they are afraid. And, with some Superhumans they would have a right to be. A Brick with a Strength of 75, punches with the same force as a Railroad Locomotive hits a Brick Wall at 30mph. And he/she can do this with every blow.
  • And while people may be afraid, governments will be terrified by this threat to their authority (even relatively benign governments would be concerned about this kind of uncontrolled power walking about). They would typically react either to control or eliminate the threat.

So, while a lot of the "Iron Age" comics may go overboard on their reactions, I think they may still be on the right track.

 

I think there is something in what you say and government reactions will be about fear and power. They will be fear them and try to co-opt their power for the state and/or themselves. However, the extreme comics tends to start with a very distorted view of the world that is then used to explain extreme reactions later. Not every politician, bureaucrat or business leader is corrupt and evil. It is unlikely the establishment is consistently engaged in wicked conspiracies to keep everyone else poor and oppressed.

 

My problem isn't with the idea that governments would fear and attempt to co-opt superpowers for their own devices, but with the sloppy, lazy and self-indulgent assumptions about the world and how it works or doesn't work. The more extreme those assumptions then the more extreme the piece of "Iron Age" fiction that tends to get written.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

Well, if the first metas who show up are noble and heroic and well-liked, it seems more likely that the world will find a way to adapt favorably. If the first meta who shows up wipes out a shopping mall full of people, the reaction is obviously going to skew pretty negative. Any new super would have to prove they weren't a sociopath, and even then they'd probably be "drafted" or quarantined until the government could get a chance to take a better look at the situation.

 

It may not so much be a "good vs. evil" thing as it is a "order vs. chaos" things. Superbeings would throw the order of things out of whack until society found a way to adjust to the new reality.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

Right track... quite possibly. But I've gotta go with Nexus here - a lot of the comics out there just go too far. Personally, I blame Marvel.

 

Marvel, in the modern age of comics, first toyed with the idea that superheroes wouldn't be beloved.

 

Spider Man is hated by ol' triple-J, and as a result feared by much of the public.

 

The Hulk is hunted by the Government, for reasons right and wrong depending on the period of the continuity.

 

The XMen are feared by the public at large for being who they were.

 

Ghost Rider... yeah.

 

They popularized the idea of the superhuman as an object of fear in the Bronze Age. Other sources noticed that they were selling schnitloads of copies, and imitated. The dark, brooding superhero feared by the masses despite his efforts to help them becomes increasingly marketable.

 

Mix in with this a view of the civlized world as a bitter, hostile, evil, doomed place popularized by the media through sources like X-Files, major blockbuster movies, a news media that spends weeks on isolated negative incidents but ignores more widespread positive incidents ("tonight on the 6:00 news... people aren't always jerks!" just doesn't get the ratings you'd think it would), and folks like Michael Moore or Tom Laughlin, and the end result is....

 

Further sociopolitical ranting follows. Not intending to start a debate about politics. Ye have been warned!

 

A world where things really *are* always horrible, awful, and the people who try to do good things always have bad things happen to them.

 

It's also a factor of repetition. It's a powerful, daring view of the world that says that just because you're trying to do the right thing, you might not earn the world's praise for doing it... until you say it *all the dang time*. Spider Man is refreshing in a world full of supers who have great lives.

 

When he's just another emo super... not so much.

 

As for The Authority and such... logical extreme of that worldview, particularly when exacerbated by an increasing discontent with and distrust of modern society. The Authority becomes a twisted sort of wish fulfillment in a world where you feel you can't dare trust anybody. Marvel's Civil War is daring commentary in a world where you're discontented with the government's attempts to make you safer (sure, it's daring commentary that basically everybody and his brother has already made, but....)

 

When the audience is cynical and bitter, the comics shift to match. It becomes good marketing to reinforce the audience's idea of how the world works, and the writers can tell themselves that it's a cautionary tale, they're making the world better, and collectively pat their own backs... the fact that it reinforces *their* ideas of how the world works makes the self-reinforcing cycle even stronger (ask me about my *real* take on Civil War some time... not here though.)

 

The Authority (and other 'rule ze WORLD' comics) trying to conquer the world becomes, *all at once*, both wish fulfillment ("Yeah! We need somebody Socially Responsible to take control and oust the jerks in power!") and ham-fisted cautionary tale ("Power cannot be concentrated in the hands of the few, it must be in the hands of The People!"), entertaining everybody... except those who want to see something where the world *doesn't* suck.

 

Unfortunately, it sells, so everybody else does it too... and it's really, really crummy for those of us who get enough of "realism = bitter cynicism" at home.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

I agree.While superhuman beings would have problems,most modern comics take it too far.

[Steve]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

One explanation for why the world might react less cynically to the appearance of superheroes can be taken from the CU's notion that magic allows superhumans to exist by adjusting the baseline universe to make superpowers possible. That same ambient magic causes a subtle mind control effect to make humans more accepting of the existence of superhumans. Humans thus have more of a sense of wonder concerning them, not fear.

 

In the real world, a superhuman would give every government agency in the world fits of concern. Given the right powers, a superhuman is a WMD in human form. In the real world, fear of superhumans would be a more likely reaction.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

[. . . ] Not every politician' date=' bureaucrat or business leader is corrupt and evil. It is unlikely the establishment is consistently engaged in wicked conspiracies to keep everyone else poor and oppressed.[/quote']

 

It would not have to be wicked or corrupt either.

 

Right now, the governments of most civilized nations tightly regulate both firearms, explosives, poisons, etc. for reasons of public safety. Politics aside, a benevolent government will still have to do this - not so much for their own safety - but because the potential damage and loss of life that can happen if one of these items were to be abused. (And we can find LOTS of examples in the news now a days.)

 

Superpowers would hardly be any different. Using my own example, Str 75 = 15d6 normal = 5d6 Killing = High Exposive Tank Shell! (And with no real ammunition problems!) Would having that walking - uncontrolled - in your neighborhood make you feel safer?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

Well, in the real world, the time it would take for a military response to a superhuman "event" in a major city would be measured in hours, not minutes. At the pace that supers operate at, by the time the A-10s arrive, that megamenace has already done his damage and is skulking off to his lair or swimming 1000 feet underwater at a pace the best attack subs can't match.

So in the initial time frame there might be a sense of helplessness among the "norms", and a sense that any "superheroes" should not be interfered with, since "they're our only chance to survive this".

In that sense, the conduct of the first superheroes would have the biggest impact on how things were handled going forward.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

Well, in the real world, the time it would take for a military response to a superhuman "event" in a major city would be measured in hours, not minutes. At the pace that supers operate at, by the time the A-10s arrive, that megamenace has already done his damage and is skulking off to his lair or swimming 1000 feet underwater at a pace the best attack subs can't match.

So in the initial time frame there might be a sense of helplessness among the "norms", and a sense that any "superheroes" should not be interfered with, since "they're our only chance to survive this".

In that sense, the conduct of the first superheroes would have the biggest impact on how things were handled going forward.

 

This is true.

 

What is more likely true is that the Government would attempt to get some superhumans intergrated into the Armed Forces as kind of an RDF for those kinds of problems. (Such meta-human soldiers might also help to relieve the publics own fears of superpowers - assuming the metas were used to protect and not to oppress the citizens.)

[megaplayboy]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

This is true.

 

What is more likely true is that the Government would attempt to get some superhumans intergrated into the Armed Forces as kind of an RDF for those kinds of problems. (Such meta-human soldiers might also help to relieve the publics own fears of superpowers - assuming the metas were used to protect and not to oppress the citizens.)

 

"Well, let's see, I can enlist as a "Spec 10" and get hazardous duty pay, and clear about 50-60k per year...or...I can work for the government as a Private Military contractor and clear about 100 times as much...decisions, decisions..."

[Clonus]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

"Well' date=' let's see, I can enlist as a "Spec 10" and get hazardous duty pay, and clear about 50-60k per year...or...I can work for the government as a Private Military contractor and clear about 100 times as much...decisions, decisions..."[/quote']

 

The latter option has real advantages for the government as well. Blackwater is not bounded by posse comitatus So what you do is set up semi-private corporations that provides superhumans to whatever government level or agency needs them on flexible basis, and a high pay scale.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

"Well' date=' let's see, I can enlist as a "Spec 10" and get hazardous duty pay, and clear about 50-60k per year...or...I can work for the government as a Private Military contractor and clear about 100 times as much...decisions, decisions..."[/quote']

 

[megaplayboy]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

The latter option has real advantages for the government as well. Blackwater is not bounded by posse comitatus So what you do is set up semi-private corporations that provides superhumans to whatever government level or agency needs them on flexible basis' date=' and a high pay scale.[/quote']

 

Or, you know, a group of superhumans could incorporate as some sort of "team", and contract with the local, state and federal government to provide law enforcement, search and rescue, special security and counter-terrorist services, under mutually agreed parameters. They could wear some kind of uniform to identify themselves, refer to their operatives by codenames, use special communicators and travel in special transport vehicles. Perhaps they'd have some kind of special base of operations, too.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

Or' date=' you know, a group of superhumans could incorporate as some sort of "team", and contract with the local, state and federal government to provide law enforcement, search and rescue, special security and counter-terrorist services, under mutually agreed parameters. They could wear some kind of uniform to identify themselves, refer to their operatives by codenames, use special communicators and travel in special transport vehicles. Perhaps they'd have some kind of special base of operations, too.[/quote']

 

Now we are getting somewhere that is realistic but not excessively cynical.

[Half Baked]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

It would not have to be wicked or corrupt either.

 

Right now, the governments of most civilized nations tightly regulate both firearms, explosives, poisons, etc. for reasons of public safety. Politics aside, a benevolent government will still have to do this - not so much for their own safety - but because the potential damage and loss of life that can happen if one of these items were to be abused. (And we can find LOTS of examples in the news now a days.)

 

I'm not disagreeing with you that governments would try to take steps to control or co-opt superpowers no matter whether they are benevolent or not. I was arguing that extreme "Iron Age" comics tend to present authority figures as evil and then use it to justify the more extreme actions of the "heroes" of the comic.

 

 

Superpowers would hardly be any different. Using my own example' date=' Str 75 = 15d6 normal = 5d6 Killing = High Exposive Tank Shell! (And with no real ammunition problems!) Would having that walking - uncontrolled - in your neighborhood make you feel safer?[/quote']

 

I might feel safer if I knew the guy and he helped change the tire on my car or used his strength in some other way to help me or my neighbours. There might always be a fear that he could turn that strength on me, but it is not much different than another neighbour deciding to run me down with a car or chasing me with a chainsaw.

 

On the other hand I might feel threatened if I don't know him or I know he is a dangerous criminal. So my answer would be: It depends!

 

More importantly, I'd certainly want the government to protect me from those who would harm me with superpowers. However, I would not want them interfer with the human rights of my superpowered friend and neighbour who I know and trust.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

I might feel safer if I knew the guy and he helped change the tire on my car or used his strength in some other way to help me or my neighbours. There might always be a fear that he could turn that strength on me, but it is not much different than another neighbour deciding to run me down with a car or chasing me with a chainsaw.

 

On the other hand I might feel threatened if I don't know him or I know he is a dangerous criminal. So my answer would be: It depends!

 

What if he looked inhuman?

 

"Hi, buddy. I'm your new neighbor, Benjamin J. Grimm..."

 

Especially if you just saw him on the news last night where he lost his temper and tore a truck in half.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

What if he looked inhuman?

 

"Hi, buddy. I'm your new neighbor, Benjamin J. Grimm..."

 

Especially if you just saw him on the news last night where he lost his temper and tore a truck in half.

 

Actually, I would be more concerned that MARVEL was writing the character . . .

[nexus]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

Don't get me wrong;l I think think supers would seeminglessly intergrate into society over night. I simply feel some settings (both comic and rpg) make things too dire and call them "realistic". Of course some people are going to fear them or have envy turn to hate. It''s a sad part of human nature but so is acceptanance and adaptibility. While many people do envy the weathy and famous and seek to tear then down, just as many see them as role models or even idolize them sometimes to an obsessive degree. The reaction to something as unprecented as superhumans is hard to predict. In fact, I don't think "realistically" you could narrow it down to one general reaction given the huge variance in humanity.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

I just find it weird that people can accept that a superhero can throw a 12d6 punch and not have the equal and opposite reaction fling him backwards violently when he swung but can't accept changes to society's expectations. Everything about superheroes violates the fundamental laws of physics, yet it's impossible for people to be accepting of said heroes?

 

Realistically speaking, you can't fly, lift trucks, or fire bolts of energy. At all. There's a large suspension of disbelief that goes on in the game world, and I fail to see why that can't be extended to social roles. Would supers be readily accepted? Probably not. There'd be some kind of registration or regulation or whatever, but you know what?

 

If I can accept a guy getting bitten by a radioactive spider who winds up being strong, agile, and can climb walls, I can accept all sorts of things.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

Actually, realistically, I can fly, lift trucks and throw bolts of energy. It just takes the right equipment.

 

I could buy such equipment. Anyone with money could. Why is it that this fact doesn't throw us all into a panic?

 

Because we have laws regulating the use of equipment that fly, lifts trucks or throws bolts of energy. And we trust the laws.

 

In a superhero world, do the inhabitants have any reason to believe that the law (and more importantly its enforcement arm) has the ability to control people who can organically do the things that regulated machines can? And if they do not believe that the law has sufficient power to protect them, then what?

 

In the presence of such a potential problem and the absence of any institutional solution, fear is a reasonable response.

[dustytomes]

Re: Realism vs cynicism The world's reactions to superhumans

 

getting superpowers is like winning the lottery. Sort of a genetic lottery. So what happens to people that win the lottery? First winners become estranged with friends and family over money disputes. Also "Old money" types look down there noses at the Winner. This isolates the winner. Also winning the lotto didn't give the winner any skill in how to use his money and oddly enough most lotto winners go bankrupt. these and other stresses cause an increase in divorce and suicide rates among lotto winners.

 

Then add in the fact that I can't think one useful thing that the government doesn't try to control with laws or taxes.

 

Then there is the truism: power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefor Superpowers should be super corruptive?

 

Also people are basically selfish and self centered.( nobody had to be taught to not share there toys)

 

This leads me to believe that in the "real" world most supers would be lonely, self centered and corrupt.

 

At the very least the government would attempt tax and legislate supers into submission.

 

Supers face an uphill battle in the "real" world just to live a normal, life let alone a super one.